blonde poker forum

Cash table at DTD

Player A raises pre, bets the flop and turn and then bets the river and is called by B

B declares two pair
Player A says 'you're good' and folds

Player D asks to see Player A's hand

Robert's Rules says 'Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked.'

Player A - seemed to be a regular refuses to show and pushes his cards into the muck.

I wasn't inclined to make an issue of it, but... Is this a specific DTD variance to the normal rules?

(edited - to clarify that I'm asking specifically about DTD rules)

Why would Player D ever want to see Player A's hand?

It's none of his business, wasting time and possibly humiliating to player A.

Get on with the game please.

It's generally considered to be "bad form" to demand to see a losing hand in a cash game.

You could also get hoisted by your own petard if player A is accidentally folding the winning hand.

I do think that if it goes check check on the river then the first to act should open his hand.

+1

+2

that would only apply if B asked to see. as it was D the hand should be killed first

D really should gtfo here though even though technically he should be able to ask

Player A was almost certainly bluffing.

By looking at his cards to confirm this there is a good chance he'll get angry and leave the game, or be embarrassed and not bluff again.

Both are much more -ev than the tiny +ev you'll gain by seeing his cards.

Was this early Saturday evening?

This doesn't really answer the question what the rule actually is at DTD (or elsewhere).  Bad form isn't a rule. Bad business isn't a rule. 

Players in in poker games frequently do things that are downright rude but any rules the casino have don't seem stop them from doing it.

Obviously the answer is yes, player D is allowed to see Player A's cards.

ya, this. rule quoted in op is correct everywhere that I know of

A few things piss me off regularly at DTD in the cash games.

Number one is when players reach showdown and there is a reluctance for anyone to show their hand even the guy who has been called on the river, there is often this silent stand off until one player eventually turns over their cards. Get on with the game FFS!

Also, if I call a player on the river and they announce when they have rather than show. If I don't answer it means I want you to turn your cards over so I can see what you have without being rude and asking you to do it, show or muck FFS!

Too many players around the game have no clue about etiquette or choose to ignore it, even though they are not new to the game.

+1

If called, even with a bluff I wait no more than 1 sec to see if the calling playing shows a winning hand. If not I turn over my hand.

The only time I instantly show (whether caller or called) is if I have the nuts!

a few places in vegas - eg the venetian- have stopped "i want to see the hand"

as far as op is concerned I agree 100% with woodsey, this whole showdown is complete nonsense.  Player A has been called and the dealer should ask him to showdown.  Player B chooses to announce his hand out of turn, then wants to see the other players hand?  Why doesn't he just stfu and wait for the showdown?

Dont be so harsh on plyr b its player D whos asking to see the hand!

Had something dodgy happen to me in a cash game last month.

I made a hero call on the river with something like 3rd pair, guy who's been called announces two pair. I'm like that's good mate and go to muck.

Dealer's obv seen this b4 and recognising the poss angle shoot due to my naivety, stops me from mucking and says to my opponent, dont just announce it, show it.

Guy dsnt want to show and its finally revealed he had fall and was on a moody/angle shoot on the river.

He was gonna get kicked out but they just marked his card and i scooped the cpla hundo pot.

Wont be so quick to muck next time on showdown, but as a relative cash novice-im a tournament player, i just never thought ppl wld try stuff like that.

LOL welcome to the world of poker. Never muck ever muck your hand until you have seen your opponents, but I guess you know that now. Unfortunately this game isn't exactly populated by upstanding gentlemen.

I did read an alternative version of the showdown rule once that was exactly the same except for the fact that other players did NOT have a right to see your cards. Obv there's potential collusion so it had a clause where another player may ask the TD to look at your cards, but they would not be shown to the table. Much prefer that to people being allowed to see.

In fairness i'm not exactly the greenest of the green. It's just my local club and i was too trusting.

In tournament poker this just don't happen, show yr hand ffs already.

Won't be again even if it's an old lady reading a miss marple novel. :)

Didn't like the rule at the UKIPT in notts.

This happened once on my starting table and caused a bit of a stir, but it never came up again as ppl just showed.

Basically if on the river at showdown one player mucked, the opponent did not have to show, nor did anyone have the right to see a winning hand.

Agree it's bad etiquette to ask and unless i suspected some kind of colluion i wouldn't, i just think that sort of thing allows for chip passing and all sorts.

Weird rule by stars imo.

It's as though some players are embarrassed by the hand they've got to showdown with.  Often gets to a stalemate, with both asking what the other have got, and then maybe turning over one card and then the other does the same, and then we have to wait to see what the kicker is.  ;grr;  If you're going to win the hand you're going to have to show both cards. 

Announcing your hand is meaningless, unless it's accompanied by the immediate turning over of your hand.  If you have two pair, and think it's good - you can announce 'two pair' as you're revealing your cards, it's the opposite of a slow-roll I guess so that the player doesn't have to double-check what you've got.

Anyone who announces they have a hand when they don't has either mis-read their hand, daft, drunk or are trying to angle-shoot - which is pretty much out and out cheating imo. 

This announcing of cards without turning them over is getting way too standard, it often holds the game up briefly which gets to be pretty annoying.

This nonsense can get stopped at a stroke at DTD, as all the games are dealer dealt.

If the person who is first to show pisses about and doesn't muck or show, then the dealer reaches over and either turns their cards over or (even better) mucks their hand and awards the pot to the other player.

...and kicks them in the nuts?

i actually think verbal declaration is anything but bad etiquette.

If you have called and your opponent hesitates, then announcing your hand just lets them tell you if its good or bad. They give you the nod, you showcthey muck gg. OK so some people are gonna slow roll or whatever but just take a mental note

To be quite frank i couldnt care less if they show or not, the only times im stubborn is if its been a weird hand and ive hero'd  - ive paid to see and i wanna see please (if they muck thats fine too)

As for being embarrased about your hand  - lol just stop playing

If only it worked as smoothly as that, it often doesn't. And there are tons that just want to avoid showing their cards  :)

??

You're basically saying that you can trust one hundred percent what the opponent is saying when they announce their hand?

What if like in my example above they don't show the winning hand because they actually don't have it??

Surely if you announce what you have you should immediately table yr hand, just speeds up the game ffs.

We dont all wanna wait while someone slowrolls the winning hand nor pullls an angle shoot.

Just show and get it over with imo.

This is an excerpt from Caro and Cookes rules and has pretty much been adopted by the TDA  (the rules which DTD's are based on). It contradicts Roberts Rules which is widely used to run alongside TDA rules. It is probably just a matter of time before RR changes to this imo.

ORDER OF SHOWDOWN.
Upon completion of action on the final betting round, the dealer shall ask the players to show their hands. If more than one player contests a pot through the final betting round, the pot will be awarded to the best hand pursuant to the rules of the game upon a showdown of hands. If there has been a bet but no raise on the final betting round, then the player who made the bet shall show his hand first, followed by other players still contesting the pot, in clockwise rotation. If there has been a bet and raise or multiple raises on the final betting round, then the person who made the final raise shall show his hand first. If there has been no bet on the final round then the showdown begins with the player who had the obligation of first action on the final betting round.

PROBABLE WINNER AT SHOWDOWN.
In the interests of efficiency and speeding up the game, a player who is reasonably certain he has the winning hand should turn over his hand immediately, regardless of the order of showdown. If a player does so, then other players at the showdown who can beat that hand should also turn their hands over immediately.

SHOW ALL CARDS.
All cards in a player’s hand must be shown face-up on the table to be awarded any part of the pot if contested.

READING HANDS.
At showdown the dealer shall read all hands where cards are exposed and laid on the table face-up. However the dealer shall never ask a player to turn up all his cards and shall only read cards that are shown. The dealer shall not read hands that are exposed but not laid on the table. The hand is to be read according to the exposed cards only. If it appears that a hand which does not have all cards exposed is entitled to the pot, the dealer shall advise that player that he must see a complete hand to award the pot. The winning hand must have all cards exposed and accounted for. If a player who loses the pot exposes only part of his hand, the dealer shall kill it without exposing the rest of the hand.

CARDS SPEAK.
A hand that is turned over at the showdown is ranked according to the cards that are in it. If the hand is turned over then an incorrect assessment of a hand’s rank or a verbal concession is not binding at showdown–the cards speak for themselves. If a player verbally misdeclares his hand, and has a better hand than he declares, then the dealer shall point this out if he notices it, but the dealer’s failure to notice it shall not entitle a player to play the higher hand once the board has been destroyed. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard his hand is unethical and will result in forfeiture of the pot. If a player verbally declares a better hand than he has, causing an opponent to muck his hand and if there is ANY suspicion that such declaration was an intentional ploy; the floorperson at his discretion may award the pot to the player who mucked his hand. Any player at the table may–and should–read a hand which is exposed face up on the table if he sees that the hand is misread and the pot about to be improperly awarded. A player shall not read a hand that is exposed so that he can see it but which is not laid face up on the table, nor shall a player encourage any other player to turn his hand face-up so that it is eligible for the pot.

TIED HANDS.
In the case of one or more tied hands at the showdown, the pot shall be divided accordingly proportionately, with odd chips allocated as set above. Suits shall in no way influence awarding any part of a pot.

SHOWDOWN WITH SIDEPOTS.
If one or more players are all-in in a multi-way contested pot, then the side pots shall be awarded first. If there is one all-in player eligible for the main pot only then he shall show his hand last. If there are multiple sidepots then those participating for the last sidepot shall show their hands down first, followed by those involved in the next-to-last sidepot, etc., until the main pot is awarded.

REQUESTS TO SEE A CALLED HAND.
Players shall not be entitled to see a called hand except in cases where there is a reasonable suspicion of collusion, in which case the floorperson shall be called over for examination of the called hand. This is contrary to the traditional rule. However the traditional rule, which was designed to prevent collusion, has not served its original purpose. Asking to see called hands slows down the game, causes resentment and impedes action. The right to see a called hand is limited to situations where a floorperson is present for the request. The purpose of this rule is to protect against collusion, not to satisfy a player’s curiosity or get a read on a player’s style of play, or worst of all, to intentionally irritate a player. Abuse of this rule is very bad for poker as it kills action and causes resentment. There is no right to see a called losing hand under any circumstances in head’s up play.
The order of showdown shall be followed, if a player reveals a winning hand outside of the order of showdown any right to request a hand to be shown shall be forfeited.

KILLING LOSING HANDS.
No pot shall be awarded until all losing hands have been mucked or killed.

PROTECTING INTEREST IN THE POT.
A player with a hand he believes to be the winning hand is responsible to hold onto his own hand until the pot is awarded. No player with an interest in the pot should release his hand to the dealer until his portion of the pot has been pushed to him.

PUSHING THE POT.
The dealer shall gather in all cards except the winning hand, then push the pot to the player who holds the winning hand, then collect the cards from the player who won the pot. After all losing hands have been mucked, the winning hand shall remain face-up until the pot is awarded. In button games, the dealer shall then advance the button. A player shall never be permitted to reach into the center of the table and pull the pot to himself.

SHOW ONE, SHOW ALL.
If after final action a hand is shown to one player at the table, then any other player at the table may ask to see the hand, and it shall be shown. If during the course of play of the hand a player flashes his hand to another player before mucking it, any player may ask that the hand be shown to all at the table, but it shall not be shown until after the end of the hand. Once the hand is mixed in the muck, however, the dealer shall not retrieve it. Upon request by a player who was dealt into the hand, if a hand has been shown to one but not all, the dealer shall protect the muck so that the exposed hand cannot be stuffed into it before being shown to all. Show One, Show All is part of poker’s tradition.

That's different to the following though:

1: "One pair"
2: "Me too"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "What's yours?"
1: "I've got a king"
2: "Me too.  What's your kicker?"
1: "What's yours?"
2: "It's not good"
1: "Mine neither"
2: "I reckon it's yours"
1: "I wouldn't be so sure"
Dealer: "Is someone going to show to claim the pot?"
1: "You got the ten kicker?"
2: "Yeah, is it good?"
1: "I thought you did, sigh"
2: "So it's good or have you got the Jack?"
1: "Yeah"
2: "Yeah what, you've got the Jack or it's good"
1: "The Jack would be good"
2: "Thought you had it, but had to call"
1: "Oh, I haven't got the Jack..."
Alex: "Sod this, I'm off to play the .50/1 game"


So many seem to be embarrassed, I don't understand what else it could be?  Get to the showdown, show your cards as you're meant to to claim the pot.  Don't slowroll, don't piss about.

sorry no, not at all

what i was saying is if I call and they dont show, id glading verbally annouce "two pair" (or usually Ace high - lol) to save them the erm.............. "embarrasment" of showing their hand

like I say if you are ever embarrased about showing 2 cards in a game you need to get out and experience life a little more. Getting locked out of a hotel room naked is kinda embarrasing - but showing down a poker hand - probs not

im all for just turning hands over (and would never relaese mine) - but someone said annoucing hands was bad - i disagree - unless you purposefully misdeclare then you should be asked to leave the game imo

lol the convo - tilted just reading it!

yes yes pls, pls kick people in the nuts!!!! plsssss

Original question answered - thanks.

LOL Boshi, but that really does happen a lot.

Boshi is never embarrassed to show his hand, because if he's got to showdown, he's got the nuts.

Take a bow son

(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs475.snc4/50508_111831698847748_6791133_n.jpg)

Always have the nuts.

dik9: I like the rules you posted above. Esp the bit about not being able to request to see a hand. I've only glanced at it on my phone so apologies if I missed it but it doesn't seem to answer the situation in another thread. Namely player a wishes to muck but player b doesn't want to show before he sees player as cards. The rules here state if someone shows out of turn (encouraged, and rightly so) then the right to see players before hands is forfeited. But it doesn't seem to cover the situation of a player wishing to muck in turn despite no hand yet being shown.

I am restraining from that thread as I had a difference of opinion with another TD over it lol. I wont comment until we have discussed our points as I mainly deal with tournaments and my opinion differs slightly regarding this situation in cash.

Reminds me of this:


YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ

thats amazing

nice work george

Not often I'd agree with Hellmuth but he was right and Bellend was wrong.

Wow, that's unreal...

Every time i play  :'(

I really don't understand why Belland is so reluctant to turn over his cards once Hellmuth has mucked: it's not as if he had a complete bag of spanners.

Half a dozen of one and 6 of the other.
Hellmuth never mucked, and his hand is still live (he is supposed to show first), saying "you win" does not constitute a muck.
It depends if they are using last man standing rules or have to show to win pot.
Hellmuth is right though  when I first dealt cash, etiquette was he could concede the pot that way by mucking, but Bellande wouldn't have to show, it is ironic how TV cash games have influenced normal cash games (tv cash games seem to follow tournament rules)

Dik, totally agree that Hellmouth has not mucked here and that is the point Bellande is trying to make. I think it is clear from what Bellande is saying that it is last man stands rule here as he states that he wants Philtomuck so that he doesn't have to show.

I can not agree at all with others on here that are saying Hellmouth is in the right here. He is clearly angle shooting with the etiquette comments so that he can see his opponents cards for free whilst not exposing his own. Bellande is 100% right in my book here. FWIW I would do exactly the same thing,except not bother engaging Hellmouth in conversation at all.

I don't disagree with you. Part the reason I will sometimes sit there quietly and wait them to show or muck after I've called, is it tilts me that I have to show my hand to take the pot whereas they can muck their bag of shite and give no info away, despite me being perfectly entitled to see their hand. That does not seem very fair to me.