blonde poker forum

Looks like we're going to be taxed on all gambling winnings of £25k+ from April 2012, according to the new budget.

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

FML

http://www.fin24.com/Budget/Budget-2011/Gamblers-luck-runs-out-20110223



Edit: oops, False alarm!

can't figure out if this is a level or a misread

South African article?

lol atkins u pleb

lol R25000 was a giveaway as was Pretoria

It's a rap.

April 1 is next Friday imo

and I'm not really up on uk politics but I've never heard of finance minister pravin gordhan

It's true James.

Luckily I work for HMRC - so just transfer 15% of your poker winnings to me on Stars and I'll give you a receipt so you don't go to jail.

This is one of my oldest bugbears.

Why shouldn't a professional gambler who earns over the tax threshhold pay tax?

If our home gets robbed we call the police.

If we get ill we go to the doctors

If we have children they go to school.

15% on 25k+ sounds like a perfectly fair and equitable level of tax.

Shame it's in South Africa really.

Oops !

Bloody Neil Channing's fault lol

http://twitter.com/senseichanning

I agree with you somewhat Camel, it's just if I don't have to pay £x I'd prefer not to!

Doesn't the argument run along the lines that instead of being paid by the punter after winning, the tax is paid by the bookie from the money they make, as it is logistically much easier to collect tax from a dozen bookmaking companies than X thousand punters.

Of course, this was all pre-internet and now most of the poker companies (and, indeed bookies) are offshore and pay fk all tax of any description.

Prob best to keep quiet lest Doughface Osbourne notices.

The problem with my argument is that people are in Government are too stupid to understand how gambling works and if they tried to tax gamblers we would probably end with a monstrosity like they have in Denmark and Holland.

If you had to pay tax on your winnings, just think of all the people who could claim tax refunds on their losses.

GTFO!

I appreciate it would be difficult to implement and Government would undoubtedly eff it up.

I would say professionals only should be taxed, a certain amount of losses could be deductable year on year.

But someone earning 100k+ per year and paying £0 tax is pretty scandalous imo.

depends what country you win it in, and you would get around it by saying people had %'s of you so it's not all yours

I couldn't agree more, and it's even more irritating the way some poker players choose to adopt a 'why should I pay tax' stance as opposed to an 'aren't i lucky not to pay tax' stance. The latter is fair enough.

Anytime this topic of conversation comes up though people come up with numerous reasons why it can't and won't work. But that doesn't stop the americans doing it...

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html

we've been waiting for poker to be taxed for years. whilst governments see it easier to tax at source (bookies/ casinos) we will be safe. when they suspect they may earn more from individual taxation then a problem might occur. poker is the one profession i know were people actually claim to make more money than they actually do. thank god only 5% make money

Pretty refreshing to hear this from someone who obviously makes their living from gambling and is currently paying no tax (I presume)

I agree with your other points about going to the doctors and schools for children etc aswell... It really winds me up when I hear people in general complaining about paying too much tax etc etc, and yet they take all the public services for granted.

I remember a time when you used to pay a tax on horse racing with your stake, If you were lucky enough to win they took 10% of the total winnings.

But how they could police this at a cash table, is virtualy impossible, and should they find a way, it would drive the game underground, back to thye spielers

The reason they don't tax poker players is because no one wins at poker any more - everyone's solid.

Well the current 'sod this we're moving to gibraltar' mentality from the UK bookies isn't going to help the average punter. One of the main reasons the punters tax was abolished was to allow UK bookies to compete with the offshore trade who were offering 'tax free betting'. It wasn't necessarily to raise more tax revenue, but to keep the business in the UK and not send it offshore. If that's no longer happening....

Most unexpected post of the year imo  :D

I pay Council Tax and I voluntarily pay my NI contributions (about £700 per year) but you are correct I do not pay any Income Tax.

Remember you also pay VAT, fuel duty, alcohol duty and probably some others I forget. So you are making a contribution to national coffers, probably more than other people who are liable for income tax but who don't have your mad poker skillz.

because the rest of us dont pay those things too?

I actually dont mind the tax position on gambling, but keith i think your stance is very ethical. Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

As far as tax is concerned, the government should turn their focus to the wealthy few who avoid it for all they are worth rather than focus on the minutiae. But that would lose political revenue and back up so that is never going to happen.

The tax system in the country is a joke in terms of its application - oh god - i better not read this thread anymore. ....................

My point is that income tax is only a part of the total of our wealth which goes to the government. It's too easy to fall into the trap of thinking 'no income tax = no tax'.

ah  - ok - didnt pick up on that - yeah - your right

my beef with the tax system is very deep set - i gladly pay my taxes - i have issues in which they are collected and who from

anyway - it  tilts me hard so im done here  ;D

I agree with camel's point to a certain extent, but i feel like the system we live in - possibly due to no fault of it's creators - promotes an "each for there own" kind of mentality and with that in mind if and when gambling tax comes in I'll be doing my utmost to hide every piece of earning I can.

its been inevitable for years anyway, tony blair and labour bought us 5years longer than we should have had prolly

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

Good point, that.

What's the difference between not paying tax on money won grinding poker on the internet, and not paying tax on money won in a prop bet between you and your mate.

really?

outside of revenue, tax is used as a disincentive to shape society. In this case it would act as both. The type of people who gamble/play poker would sooner give their money away than pay a new tax on it.

So you have a choice, 10 people can play poker in a licencsed venue - if you win a cash session you give up 25% of it.

or 10 people can play at home/ in a pub upstairs/ pool hall out back etc etc! But you dont think it would go underground? Ok, i think ill stick with my line

Its a known fact that politicians rarely assess the full environmental impact of a tax before its application, leading to the many historic fuck ups of mal-levvied taxes over the years

I am happy to discuss this point all day by the way

income tax hasn't forced work underground, corporation tax hasnt forced business underground, vat hasnt forced retail sales underground etc

a tax inspires avoidance efforts, but the extent of this will be the risk (possible jail)/reward ratio of the tax in question.

Just ask Vodafone.

your generalised point here is mute as it relates to business

however, it does shape business decisions, such as HSBC condidering leaving the UK for Hong Kong - so Im pretty sure you are wrong

also what about banks locating in the UK for the last 15 years due to favourable tax systems

The govt. have no clue as far as gambling goes imo. I play poker and own a betting shop and they have totally crushed the independent bookies with extra/unfair costings for licenses.

Some plank decided to class brick and mortar poker rake as casino drop profit and therefore taxable as such. So when the dealer pops that £7 from your plo/nl pot into the box its likely that £3.50 is off to HMRC as its gross profit tax.

I think we worked out that our local Bristol plo game rakes over 150k pa.

plenty of tax that.

alex

I think you mean moot [/spelling nazi]

As I said a tax will inspire efforts to avoid it, however a government reacts to avoidance/evasion with changes in legislation.  Your original point was that tax would drive poker underground, you still havent provided an example of an activity that has been driven underground as a resullt of tax.

When I correct people's spelling, I make sure I get my quote blocks right.

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Prohibition in the us when alcohol was banned drove the trade underground.

Prohibition is outright banning a trade, so of course it will drive it underground, this discussion is about taxing a trade.

Yes, I've been watching Boardwalk Empire too.

Examples plz.

Not that I doubt you, Im just interested in what the previous fuck ups were

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

Isn't 'going underground' just 'doing the best thing for your business'.

You make a calculation as to which is better for you - 'legimate business + tax' or 'underground business + hassle of not being legit'.

Yes I agree ppl do risk/reward calculations, but usually the goverment in question ensures that the risk is too high in comparison to the legitimate rewards.  The point of the tax is to raise money. 

fuel is probably the most topical and simple example

with fuel costs rising as a result of both oil and taxation the black market ecomnomy for fuel is growing exponentially as is use of red diesel

thank you for making me shit my pants, now i have to wait until 5 to the hour to change them!

The fuel market is underground?  lol didn't realise. what a fool I feel for buying at my local sainsbury's.

so you believe that something going underground requires 100% participation do you?

i was merely trying to be topical - but if you think that this trend isnt due to cost and taxation thats fine too

tobacco is another good example of something which was HUGELY affected by a change in taxation and legislation again creating a significant black market

btw in my defence I read another article saying the same thing that seemed to refer to UK and had '£' in it, but straight after I looked at it the first time it asked me for subscription details

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.internationallawoffice.com/newsletters/detail.aspx%3Fg%3Ddfcc09e0-529c-4db6-864d-7c90b6366b6d%23gambling&rct=j&q=budget+2011+gambling&usg=AFQjCNFPcAm8Gtij-lpkDGl2A0_0bhCcQw&sa=X&ei=yDyKTcL9EdC2hAetvsSyDg&ved=0CDIQygQwAQ

Corporate Tax - South Africa

It does say that at the top :)

yeah pretty much - certainly fractions of an industry as in your examples couldn't possibly used to substantiate the statement that taxing an activity sends it underground.  I've agreed several times that ppl will take risks over tax evasion, correctly assesed or otherwise, but the vast majority will of participants in the taxable activity will just pay up.

but the whole point of something moving underground is that it becomes absolutely unquantifiable, and poker would become an exceptional example of this overnight

Not sure what I've done to piss you off, but you seem to have a had a problem with a few of my posts recently.

What do you want me to do about the situation?

What you said is clearly nonsense though.

Money always gets taxed over and over again.

You earn money as an internet policeman and get taxed, you go to the park on a hot day and fancy an ice cream and the ice cream salesman gets taxed on what he earns from you. Mr ice cream salesman's tv blows up and gets it repaired and pays the repairman who pays pays tax on what he earns.

etc etc etc and indeed etc

I'm not going to get much into this other than to say that the courts have ruled that winning at gambling doesn't constitute the same kind of activity as your examples.


(sorry bout how it came across, but you do always enthusiastically demand that you should be taxed in these threads and never write to the Times or Guardian about it)

I don't get this at all to be honest Guy.  If taxing income from poker was going to drive it underground then why is Las Vegas full of casinos rather than underground poker clubs??  Income on gambling winnings is taxed at the regular rate in the States.

The problem is so very people understand gambling for a living.

I have told quite a few parents at Jake's school what I do for a living and they generally think I'm either:

1. A degenerate gambling addict.

2. Some kind of genius who wins every bet he ever has and every time I see them they ask me for tips.

3. A work avoidance advocate.

None of which are true of course, but that is how people see pro gamblers.

Perhaps a good start would be to tax poker tournaments 5% at source and cash games 0.5% per pot.

And give players who can demonstrate that poker isn't their major form of income the chance to claim money back.

Redarmi ( on phone quote won't work)

Now factor the other 49 states of America into your considerations!

It isn't taxed at source.

There is a legal poker room in most US States these days.  I live most of the time in South Florida and have eight rooms within 40 minutes drive from my house.  When Florida legalised poker without stake limits pretty much all of the underground clubs shut overniight.  Basically fish are never going to have to pay taxes as they never win and pros are only going to be interested in going where the fish are.

It isn't taxed at source.
[/quote]

No but it is inescapable.  If you cash in any tourney they are going to want to see id and issue you with a 1099 for it.

Don't get you guys at all that wanna pay tax on your poker .honourable maybe, but come on seriously, why would you wanna donate to the revenue ?
as if we are not taxed enough in this country already ! lol
if you feel that strongly about it Camel why dont you put aside 25% of your earnings to be donated to Africa, Japan, British Heart Foundation or some other worthwhile cause . im sure they would appreciate it .  :)up
At least then you could justify your profession as a worthy one to all the school mums and dads who think gambling, poker is for degenerates : )  

 

Just get a good accountant and you will be able to dodge most of it imo

No but it is inescapable.  If you cash in any tourney they are going to want to see id and issue you with a 1099 for it.
[/quote]
Isn't it for cashes over 10k only though?
In vegas i've never been asked for id when cashing, or been issued with a 1099. Never cashed for morethan 10k though, sigh

5k last time I was there.

In tournaments yeah but in cash games it's not, that is my point.

Poor point, this is exactly the same as a a cabbie earning £25, gets £20 after basic rate income tax.

Cabble spends £20 on a hair cut and the hairdresser pays £4 income tax and has £16 left.

She then gets a £16 cab into town and the cabbie pays £3.20 income tax and is left with just £12.80, AND SO ON.

Increasing tax just sucks money out of the private economy faster and reduces GDP.

This is true to a degree but US residents that play poker for a living are not going to get away with not paying taxes.  Even criminals here pay their income tax!!!!!!

Someone told me that the IRS have been known to visit peoples houses and add up the value of their property to see if they might be earning more than they are declaring

True or urban myth?

I can believe it.  To give you an idea of the level of fear that the IRS here have over people,  the guy that I used to work for that owned the sportsbook in Antigua had been indicted by the US and was effectively on the run and unable to return to the United States without a lengthy period inside yet every year he faithfully paid the IRS on his income from that business despite the fact he was basically resigned to the fact that he would never return 'home'.  Last time I spoke to him he was looking into surrendering his US passport so that he was no longer a legal US citizen and didn't have to pay their taxes but whilst he retained a US passport he wasn't taking the chance.

Which pretty much gets to the point of why it's unlikely that the UK will tax poker winnings, it just wouldn't be worth it. It would effectively only really end up applying to the full time professionals, they would be able to write off any losses against their liability - so in the end the government would raise peanuts in extra tax revenue.

I always assumed that they could do it in the USA because of the bigger scale of the IRS and the larger population of professional players - but IIRC poker players pay tax as income because of a legal precedent which was to avoid paying tax on poker classed as a more general gambling win; it's entirely possible that the tax revenue raised from taxing poker in the US isn't really worth the cost either but because of the way it arrived, and the monstrous federal bureaucracy, it just wouldn't be worth their while to change it.

please never ever do this keith, some of us are on the breadline!!!!!!

yeah the govt just puts the money in a box and doesn't employ ppl who get cabs and have haircuts.

Any gambling win is taxable in the US (in most states gambling losses can be offset, but not other earnings).  In the UK a wise judge decided that an individual playing cards or betting on horses is not a trade profession or vocation, so it is not income for tax purposes.