UK to start taxing poker winnings? :(

[outragous76]

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

fuel is probably the most topical and simple example

with fuel costs rising as a result of both oil and taxation the black market ecomnomy for fuel is growing exponentially as is use of red diesel

[Spraggs]

thank you for making me shit my pants, now i have to wait until 5 to the hour to change them!

[doubleup]

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

fuel is probably the most topical and simple example

with fuel costs rising as a result of both oil and taxation the black market ecomnomy for fuel is growing exponentially as is use of red diesel

The fuel market is underground?  lol didn't realise. what a fool I feel for buying at my local sainsbury's.

[outragous76]

Surely gambling companies moving offshore is the equivalent of going underground - they're continuing to do what they did before, but do it in a place where they are out of the reach of the taxman.

Don't think so -they are just moving to the best place for them to carry out their business.  If the uk reacted by eg banning them from doing business with uk citizens from offshore, they would consider whether the costs justified returning the uk part back onshore.  Anyway I'm still waiting for an example of something driven underground by a tax.

fuel is probably the most topical and simple example

with fuel costs rising as a result of both oil and taxation the black market ecomnomy for fuel is growing exponentially as is use of red diesel

The fuel market is underground?  lol didn't realise. what a fool I feel for buying at my local sainsbury's.

so you believe that something going underground requires 100% participation do you?

i was merely trying to be topical - but if you think that this trend isnt due to cost and taxation thats fine too

tobacco is another good example of something which was HUGELY affected by a change in taxation and legislation again creating a significant black market

[MC]

lol R25000 was a giveaway as was Pretoria

btw in my defence I read another article saying the same thing that seemed to refer to UK and had '£' in it, but straight after I looked at it the first time it asked me for subscription details

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.internationallawoffice.com/newsletters/detail.aspx%3Fg%3Ddfcc09e0-529c-4db6-864d-7c90b6366b6d%23gambling&rct=j&q=budget+2011+gambling&usg=AFQjCNFPcAm8Gtij-lpkDGl2A0_0bhCcQw&sa=X&ei=yDyKTcL9EdC2hAetvsSyDg&ved=0CDIQygQwAQ

[Dubai]

Corporate Tax - South Africa

It does say that at the top

[doubleup]

so you believe that something going underground requires 100% participation do you?

yeah pretty much - certainly fractions of an industry as in your examples couldn't possibly used to substantiate the statement that taxing an activity sends it underground.  I've agreed several times that ppl will take risks over tax evasion, correctly assesed or otherwise, but the vast majority will of participants in the taxable activity will just pay up.

[outragous76]

so you believe that something going underground requires 100% participation do you?

yeah pretty much - certainly fractions of an industry as in your examples couldn't possibly used to substantiate the statement that taxing an activity sends it underground.  I've agreed several times that ppl will take risks over tax evasion, correctly assesed or otherwise, but the vast majority will of participants in the taxable activity will just pay up.

but the whole point of something moving underground is that it becomes absolutely unquantifiable, and poker would become an exceptional example of this overnight

[The Camel]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

Not sure what I've done to piss you off, but you seem to have a had a problem with a few of my posts recently.

What do you want me to do about the situation?

What you said is clearly nonsense though.

Money always gets taxed over and over again.

You earn money as an internet policeman and get taxed, you go to the park on a hot day and fancy an ice cream and the ice cream salesman gets taxed on what he earns from you. Mr ice cream salesman's tv blows up and gets it repaired and pays the repairman who pays pays tax on what he earns.

etc etc etc and indeed etc

[doubleup]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

Not sure what I've done to piss you off, but you seem to have a had a problem with a few of my posts recently.

What do you want me to do about the situation?

What you said is clearly nonsense though.

Money always gets taxed over and over again.

You earn money as an internet policeman and get taxed, you go to the park on a hot day and fancy an ice cream and the ice cream salesman gets taxed on what he earns from you. Mr ice cream salesman's tv blows up and gets it repaired and pays the repairman who pays pays tax on what he earns.

etc etc etc and indeed etc

I'm not going to get much into this other than to say that the courts have ruled that winning at gambling doesn't constitute the same kind of activity as your examples.


(sorry bout how it came across, but you do always enthusiastically demand that you should be taxed in these threads and never write to the Times or Guardian about it)

[redarmi]

so you believe that something going underground requires 100% participation do you?

yeah pretty much - certainly fractions of an industry as in your examples couldn't possibly used to substantiate the statement that taxing an activity sends it underground.  I've agreed several times that ppl will take risks over tax evasion, correctly assesed or otherwise, but the vast majority will of participants in the taxable activity will just pay up.

but the whole point of something moving underground is that it becomes absolutely unquantifiable, and poker would become an exceptional example of this overnight

I don't get this at all to be honest Guy.  If taxing income from poker was going to drive it underground then why is Las Vegas full of casinos rather than underground poker clubs??  Income on gambling winnings is taxed at the regular rate in the States.

[The Camel]

Taxing gambling would merely force gambling/poker etc underground.

Taxing things doesnt force them underground.

Gambling between individuals is just a transfer of capital that has already been taxed when it was earned.  Camel keeps moaning about not paying tax but never does anything about it.

Not sure what I've done to piss you off, but you seem to have a had a problem with a few of my posts recently.

What do you want me to do about the situation?

What you said is clearly nonsense though.

Money always gets taxed over and over again.

You earn money as an internet policeman and get taxed, you go to the park on a hot day and fancy an ice cream and the ice cream salesman gets taxed on what he earns from you. Mr ice cream salesman's tv blows up and gets it repaired and pays the repairman who pays pays tax on what he earns.

etc etc etc and indeed etc

I'm not going to get much into this other than to say that the courts have ruled that winning at gambling doesn't constitute the same kind of activity as your examples.


(sorry bout how it came across, but you do always enthusiastically demand that you should be taxed in these threads and never write to the Times or Guardian about it)

The problem is so very people understand gambling for a living.

I have told quite a few parents at Jake's school what I do for a living and they generally think I'm either:

1. A degenerate gambling addict.

2. Some kind of genius who wins every bet he ever has and every time I see them they ask me for tips.

3. A work avoidance advocate.

None of which are true of course, but that is how people see pro gamblers.

Perhaps a good start would be to tax poker tournaments 5% at source and cash games 0.5% per pot.

And give players who can demonstrate that poker isn't their major form of income the chance to claim money back.

[outragous76]

Redarmi ( on phone quote won't work)

Now factor the other 49 states of America into your considerations!

[Royal Flush]

so you believe that something going underground requires 100% participation do you?

yeah pretty much - certainly fractions of an industry as in your examples couldn't possibly used to substantiate the statement that taxing an activity sends it underground.  I've agreed several times that ppl will take risks over tax evasion, correctly assesed or otherwise, but the vast majority will of participants in the taxable activity will just pay up.

but the whole point of something moving underground is that it becomes absolutely unquantifiable, and poker would become an exceptional example of this overnight

I don't get this at all to be honest Guy.  If taxing income from poker was going to drive it underground then why is Las Vegas full of casinos rather than underground poker clubs??  Income on gambling winnings is taxed at the regular rate in the States.

It isn't taxed at source.

[redarmi]

There is a legal poker room in most US States these days.  I live most of the time in South Florida and have eight rooms within 40 minutes drive from my house.  When Florida legalised poker without stake limits pretty much all of the underground clubs shut overniight.  Basically fish are never going to have to pay taxes as they never win and pros are only going to be interested in going where the fish are.