blonde poker forum

Villain been sat down 2 orbit - turned 40 into 160 with 2 daft double thrus (99>AA and AQ>AK - neither AIPF)

4 limpers  - he limps button and says something like "oh I like this hand"

We look at Ah Kh playing circa £200 in BB - we make it £11 to go, Villain on button is only caller (I dont think he is calling because he has the button, Im assuming he is bad so far - just has a "pretty hand"


Flop  K Qc Jc

we check, he bets £21 into 26

we?

lead the flop. call now.

call now with a plan to?

Spike a non club 10 obv.

and now youhave stated the obvious - whats your plan?

because that was where i got to after about 30 seconds

These are the cards I thought I wasnt sure if i wanted to see:

 Tc Jd Jh Js Qd Qh Qs Kd Kc Ad Ac Aspades


and wasnt sure how to proceed for 2 more streets with these cards:

 2d 2h 2s 3d 3h 3s 4d 4h 4s 5d 5h 5s 6d 6h 6s 7d 7h 7s 8d 8h 8s 9d 9h 9s


but i was happy to see these:

 Td Th Ts


so after calling the flop:

it comes any of group 1?

it comes any of group 2?


do we get paid if it comes group 3?

Ok ok. if we are gonna be like this, i figure a cheap way to find out fo sho is to Click it back, £42 to him then see what he does.  This should give you the answer.  If he flats he most likely has a draw, if it bricks the turn smash it in his face. Calling to check, fold is filth.

IMO a King is probs a good card for you.

If we click back to $42 we are giving him odds to call pretty much all of his draws on a draw heavy board andif we reraise bigger we only get called by better.  Also he is very often going to have a decent draw along with a part of this board that, if he is any good (I realise this isn't ourperception at the moment), he will stick in our eye making it hard for us to call.  At the moment we are only beating a couple of his hands and we probably arent that far in front of the rest of them.  Alex's line is probably best although not sure whether I call it off as we are only really beating KT and (semi)bluffs.

Lead flop.

Now I'd re-pop flop say 50, you've raised pre, keep repping a hand which you have anyway.

Assuming he calls a repop of 50, non club turns, lead out.
Club comes, c/c as he could still be drawing or have worse 1p with fd or sd's
If river is safe, vbet this dude.

Can't believe the raise suggestions here, we have 1 pr on the wettest board in history

Fold then. You should have lead the flop. Checking has made this tricky for OOP

Lol why have u checked flop?

What was your thinking in checking the flop???

I checked the flop for pot control, as he raises so many of his 2 pair hands and I'm in a sticky spot! I wasn't expecting him to bet quite so big!

But everyone seems to think our AK is huge here, other than his air hands we are never in great shape with this hand. Even if we are ahead, any hand they get it in with is probably favourite to improve!

I'd didn't think I was ahead at the time and really wanted to get to the turn.

For me, raising was insanity
Calling was a fair option but oop I had no idea how I proceed

I folded the hand, I know his holding

For those saying lead, we are lead folding?, lead getting it in?

What hands are we good against?

Oh, I though it was Obv, but I think we can take him off AK as he raises it pre imo

dont do any of this.

Agreed alex

raising flop is obv terrible. checking is also pretty bad imo guy, but check/folding is nut low option!

checking for pot control is meh, just lead dude. check/call if you're gonna. check all turn cards. if he fires again re-eval depending on card. Fold all clubs and Aces, call all 2-9. Interesting if board pairs on turn and he fires again.

I lead fold.  Aas you say you are never going to be a massive favourite and could be drawing very thin.  I would say his most likely holding here is two pair or a pair and a draw but you are only really in good shape versus something like AQ/AJ which I guess he could play like this.  Interested in his comment that he likes this hand pre.....sounds like something pretty.....KQ/89 etc

yeh bet/fold is best line imo.

I'd say c/r is worse than c/f, Cbet/fold the flop. c/f most turns.

Wow this about the simplest bet/fold spot ever.

This is complete butchery to fold here guy.

As played I am not sure it is horrible to fold here.  Probably call>fold>>>>>>>>>>>>>raise but pretty close between call and fold as played imo.

How can bet folding a flop be better than check calling?, ESP when we have a draw to the nuts!

You don't know it will be the nuts though.  25% of the time when you hit it will be  Tc and then you have a tough decision.  Think b/f>c/c for a lot of reasons but the most important is that you prevent hands that are behind you form taking the pot away from you as appears to have happened here.  When you check then hands like QT/JT/KT/AQ/AJ might think that they are ahead and worth betting now.  Effectively you are giving them the advantage of fold equity when you check.  Most of those hands don't fold but they also don't have much chance of winning the hand on the flop when behind when you check.

i'd check call see the turn

my life is complete!

I have to say in hindsight i wish i had called, but i had been running pretty terrible all  night and was shoring up the defences. At the time i thought there were so few good cards that folding here wasnt terrible, given that I didnt have a definate plan for the turn.

what i didnt give too much weight to at the time was his perception of my check call which I think can be as strong as it is weak.  On the grounds I thought he had 2 pr a good % of the time here - i wish i had called - but didnt hate my fold in game at all

u check folded tho?

Rupert I know you've got the world in an ept and I've just busted a local £200f but why would you rather check than bet? I think that's wrong in a £0.50/1 live game.

We will get lots of value from weaker j10/q10 hands, even fishy 10x and acex hands that will often check behind.

sometimes we get blown off the best hand if we bet, sometimes we deceive them and get a bet out of say 88 that sorta stuff.  i think bet folding is fine but i'd just check call, i'd probs check call AA too

Think this is wrong to be honest at this stake level.   A worse hand is almost never raising here.  Only6 hand I can see doing that is a tilted or spewy AK

Think it's pretty unlikely someone who sat down with £40 is going to do anything but play his hand face up on such a scary flop.

Agree. Live cash this is an easy bet/fold. They never raise with worse and fish with so many hands here

Pretty stunned at all the talk about strong hands and being beat here

Pre the guy can easily get to the flop with 80% of hands and we have TPTK which is pretty much the nuts at this point and check folding the nuts even on the wettest board ever is never gunna be good.

Don't know how the 99>AA or AQ > AK hands happened but that's gunna decide how I'm playing this hand. If he was spazzy in those hands I'd probably look to check/call down and if he was really stationy and got there then just bet/bet/jam safe-ish cards.

 The fact that there are a lot of bad turns for you isn't a good enough reason to fold against a guy that's gunna play his hand pretty face up.

Don't think anyone is suggesting that we are beat here.  We clearly have a very strong hand but it is a hand that is likely to be up against other hands that could easily improve to beat us or are already beating us.  For that reason checking and giving the risk of a free card is surely the wrong move whereas if we bet then we fold out some of the danger hands and get an idea of when we are up against the hands that are beating us.  i don't think that the potential of making a straight with a ten is a reason enough to give the chance of a free card.  I think it is interesting that the guys that think check call is the right line both play at a higher level generally and come up against players that are able to bluff and semi bluff on boards like this so it may be that the optimal line is very much different depending upon the game but I really find it hard to believe in this spot it is the right play.

NB: live 50/1 players don't bluff in general. No-one is gonna be betting 88 or 99 here.

FWIW I think check/call is absolutely fine, we under-rep our hand slightly and get to to pot control a bit, once it goes chk/chk we can most likely get two biggish barrells off nearly ANY one pair hand.

In regards to where bet folding is better than chk calling, this is in spots where villains have no range to bluff at all, but have a very loose calling range...so we get value of there bad calls but they never raise a range we beat so its easy to fold if they raise...

I dont think this is one of those spots tbh, I think a line that pot controls slightly/defines his range, and under-reps our hand has a lot of merit in this situation. Our hand isnt THAT venerable so letting it chk through is no biggy either.

I think the deciding factor in this flop spot is how he behaves with his weaker value range (hands like AJ/JT/QT) if he is raising this on the flop then bet fold is terrible, if he is chking them back then chk call is terrible. By instinct would be that he bets these hands a lot which makes we wanna lean to a chk call in this spot.

chk folding is pretty weird I surprised you did that

Ty lilD

Reasons for the fold given. There was no fold consideration at all when I checked until he bet the pot! I was in for 3 buy ins, couldn't decide how to play a blank turn so moved on.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I play every hand well, and I Obv tend to post the weird ones! I was happy with my fold at the time as there were so many spots to pick up money I didn't need to take a high variance hand here when I'd already done my nuts.

Fwiw the guy shows Kc Tc so was never folding and I don't mind not flipping in that spot

cawllllll that

[ ] Flipping

Also, if I'm stuck 3 bi, I'm never avoiding a flip

Your right we have the worst of it!

very much this.

Guy uve gone wobbly in the head. Wtfs happened? Srsly

Can you explain your maths here??

I mean, cos live poker has so many external variables, often really terrible plays are the best vacuum ones because of X Y or Z reason, which is fair enough. But no1 is ever chk/folding here is a stnd situation, cos its a bad play, for a host of reasons which im sure you know.

The situation was obviously non-stnd in your opinion, hence why you made this move, which still seems to be a bad play, but im sure you had ur reasons...

FWIW actually disagree bet fold is the best play as well, Id lean closer to a bet/call than a bet fold but happy with chk/call also.

fwiw i'd almost go as far to say c/c is horrific in a live cash game with no real reads. i'd b/c or b/f depending how many times his nose twitches. His range is just too wide to c/c.

Also im not sure how check/something OOP is ever pot controlling. If you want to bluff catch and suspect hes capable, have a backup plan (Ackx/KxTc) i think this is the wrong hand to do it with.

Just to confirm we had the worst of it

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

 990  games     0.015 secs    66,000  games/sec

Board: Kd Qc Jc
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    47.273%     46.36%    00.91%               459            9.00   { AhKh }
Hand 1:    52.727%     51.82%    00.91%               513            9.00   { KcTc }


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I think its a bit thin to use this specific stoe as an example as we're getting close to the top of his range now.

also fwiw would be absolutley fine to b/get in vs this hand

i agree - but I had already posted the hand when i made my comment, it was a hand and comment of fact - not range.

I havent stoved it but i dont think his range is that different an outcome

ok couldnt resist - gave him everything except bluffs and hands I believe he raises pre (100% of the time)

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  81,180  games     0.016 secs     5,073,750  games/sec

Board: Kd Qc Jc
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    52.746%     49.57%    03.18%             40238         2581.00   { AhKh }
Hand 1:    47.254%     44.07%    03.18%             35780         2581.00   { AQs-ATs, KJs+, KcTc, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }


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Moving this debate on then (and obv focusing on my reason for the fold)


You are sat at a table, you are in for 400, with 160 sat in front of you, and you are not reloading if you go broke.

You believe that you have a significant edge over the table (mostly soft spots), are you happy to flip for the lot, or prefer to play on 4 hours and see what happens?

Flip.

U can't wanna play on if ur gonna play sooo weak post flop. You might as well give the dealer the 160 quid and tell him to give the table 40 quid an hour so you don't have to be there doing it.

If you don't wanna flip etc, then check the ak pre. Can't make it 11bb and auto assume ur beat when u check flop.

Cos crushing itt

This range is far too tight for sum1 who limps behind 2 players and calls a range. You should distribute a portion of pure airballs in there aswell (maybe 10%)

You have to flip in this spot if you think it is a flip because the money in the middle means you are getting over even money.  People tend to overestimate the edges that tend to have in this game.  You have to push the fairly small edges all the time to make money especially in cash games.  Tournaments are slightly different because you aren't faced with actual cash EV calculations in every hand in so far as that if, for example, you double up in the first hand you don't actually win money and your EV doesn't double so in a tournament it may be correctbto make this fold.  In a cash game it can never be correct.  You have to look at cash games from the long term and take every small edge possible.  The result tonight doesn't matter every time you make a -EV decision you lose money and every time you make a +EV decision you win money.  Whether you play anymore hands tonight or not is pretty irrelevant in the long run so long as you are rolled properly and if you aren't then sure avoid the flip but you should be playing lower.

zing!

thought this whole thread was a level, now iv just foundout i played with you in Luton and never even said hi.


can people please stop using the word lead, it implies a donkbet, but in this context is actually just a bet.

This.


Deffo this. Alex crushes.

Guy, I'd personally bet the flop. I'm not in love with a check-call, but it does have its merits. The reason I don't like it is because I feel the villain may bet the flop, but turn and river will go check-check too often, and we're missing out on value. 

thanks for the feedback everyone

Really good thread, and very interesting to get everyones POV

promise to play it better next time