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Since his untimely death it has been categorically stated by his family that GS was not suffering depression of any kind and he didn't have an argument with his wife that evening. So the reason he suddenly felt suicidal a few hours after hosting a family party remain a mystery. The press ringing to say he's front page news monday morning is the most plausible explanation. Anyway I was thinking about this today and wondered how many times has GS actually been on Football Focus? I mean I watch FF a lot and don't remember seeing him on it before. Why has his agent arranged for him to appear on prime time telly on this particular Saturday?

Seperated from the condolences thread as discussed on there

There are no flames in the OP of this thread, please do not flame in response, ty

Whats the point of trying to figure it out? You 'll never know the answer unless something comes out.

I always wonder about the moderation on this forum and why it's so inconsistent. It is constantly deemed fine to flame me until I respond and then suddenly flaming isn't ok anymore. On the subject of GS I am concerned that a volatile life shattering story would be like a loaded gun and those waving it around irresponsibly in his direction should have some degree of accountability for the state of mind they put him in. I don't like that he suddenly appears on Football Focus that weekend and I feel a bit like he was set up for a fall. I can't imagine why I would be chastised for saying I think something is wrong here. Because that is exactly what the Leveson Enquiry is doing right now. Yet expressing my worry about the circumstances of his shocking demise is so intolerable that the thread should be moderated. Afterall it's a RIP thread and asking why shows terrible disrespect right?

The last RIP thread I posted in was that of Amy Winehouse. The coroner reported that her body was free from drugs and so it seems that she did indeed overcome these demons and yet sadly killed herself by drinking too much that evening. In that thread I passionately supported and respected her memory. However, a number of people on this forum posted that she deserved to die, that they didn't give a fig about her, that they had no sympathy for her, and people even made jokes about her. Funny because I don't remember any modding in that thread or calls to respect her memory in what was a RIP thread. I found many comments in that thread to be disrespectful to her memory and just plain malicious. But that was ok. But asking why in the Gary Speed thread is completely unacceptable. Sorry but the picking and choosing of moral standards when it suits is a joke to me.

flames towards you after your post were removed by the first mod to be able to do so.....

It's a difficult job Mr Mantis, and I'll be the first to admit that we don't always get it right.

On this occasion removing the flame posts and re-posting your opinion piece on a new thread seemed to be a sensible compromise.

The OP in the thread asked people not to speculate, a request which most people chose to respect.  For some reason, you chose to ignore this and tried to commence a debate within it which, given the emotion attached to the thread, unsurprisingly drew some pretty ugly responses and took the whole thread away from the purpose it was intended for.

Quite why you chose to do this within the thread is beyond me, but I found it distasteful and disrespectful and removed it, if only to protect the integrity of the original thread and prevent it descending into a flame war.  If that's joke moderating then I'm happy enough to be a joke moderator.

Speculate all you want in the new thread, and maybe some people will join you in the discussion.  Others can now choose to ignore it and simply remember Gary Speed in their own way on the original thread.

You’ve had two recent RIP threads to moderate. In this one you deem any deviation away from the original sentiment worthy of moderation. In the Amy Winehouse one people were free to say she got what she deserved and to call her names. I didn’t see anybody seeking to protect the original integrity of the thread. Nobody found those comments distasteful or deleted posts. That thread diverted off into a debate about soldiers and drugs as I remember. In this one I say hey i’m shocked and what happened here? and that is deemed distasteful. I buy into the fact that you are all good people and tough job etc but I do figure it’s possible to aspire to a greater level of consistency than that. If you don’t then ok.

As to why I chose the GS thread to ask what happened to GS. Since this story broke it seems every mention of GS is followed by advice or story about depression. I find that constant link to mental illness quite inappropriate considering GS wasn’t depressed. I wonder if the media should be leading people down that path really and why they are doing it. I would prefer to make up my own mind so think asking other people what happened is reasonable and not at all disrespectful. I mean personally I can’t fathom why people would use the RIP Amy Winehouse thread to say they didn’t give a fig about her really but there you go.

A very difficult one for the Mods, Mr Mantis, & as Tom says, we don't always get it right. Or wrong. However, the Mods try to get it right, & they do so with good intent.

On with the GS debate now, if you so wish, but the Mods will never please everyone, & that's understandable.

If you do wish to debate the Mod's even-handedness or consistency, feel free, but I would suggest a seperate Thread, as several debates are getting mixed up.

THIS thread is for the GS debate.

Thanks.

Just doing my job. Keep up the fine work lads and remember .....
"becareful out there".

What's the point in speculating?

Agree it's very weird as does everyone.

Human nature when a well known person does something like this is to speculate why.

I often hear people say the tabloids churn out news from the gutter and the gullible sheep british public just lap it up. Many people who prefer independent thought deduce he died because of press intrusion into his life. I think that too and figure their strategy to link his death to mental illness is diversionary and wholly inappropriate. Usually they are the complete nosey parkers and I don't really think the red tops have "respect" for people, so funny that their whole coverage never directly asked why. Thus imo without the press intruding into his private life he would still be alive and happy. I don't care at all what GS got up to in his private life because it's not in the public interest and clearly didn't affect his job.

Not speculating is to allow the press to destroy lives unchecked. If they were about to destroy his life one day I think all this we loved GS on the front pages the next is a bit rich isn't it? So to not speculate is to behave like the media lead sheep people suggest we are and to tolerate the way the press operate. The NOTW closed because people speculated and speculation could well lead to futher red top closures and a change in how the press conduct themselves. If people don't want to speculate then that's fine but asking why really doesn't make somebody disrespectful. Saying somebody deserved to die is disrespectful.

Anyway can the mods tell me which day I'm on the advent calendar so I can remember to log back in for my special day?

Rich is keeping his Advent "choices" private, but I have recommended to him that you be included on TWO grounds, one for the brevity of your Posts, & the other for what I consider to be your superb contributions to the PHA, which are admired by one & all. Well, by me, anyway.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

your sharing a day with cos. 26th boxing day.

Thanks for those kind words Tony. Of course any shareholder in an internet site who has any interest in the commerciality of the business would admire my contributions to that board like you do. I feel the same way. Think I'm prob struggling with the brevity award thou but thanks for your nominations all the same.

I would like to know why he did it because it is mildly interesting, really can't see how speculating about it is in any way distasteful. Having said that, if I never know why I'll be fine too.

We speculate on peoples motives all the time so pretty reasonable to do it in more extreme cases like this I would think

btw, abs horrific that s/land fans didn't clap speedo before game today, apparently.

is it Easter :)

Source?

All reports I've seen have said compelte opposite.

Everyone is obliged to respect him? Kinda misses the point, if true.

Seems unlikely after how the went on after Sir Bobby died,  ;hattip;

Common decency says yes, football fans should show respect to a respected footballer who has recently committed suicide.

What if it was Joe Barton? He's a respected footballer, but he's an absolute cock.

If the Sunderland fans didn't want to clap I have no issue with that as long as they don't desecrate what others are doing!

Joey B is a bit of a reformed character these days, must admit i thought he should have been kicked out of the game a couple of years ago. Second chance n that.

Start a poll, Joey Barton cock or not. 

Quite like Joey Barton.

+1 his twitter rants are class

Clapped on more

Any talk of Joey Barton is distasteful and disrespectful. I would suggest a seperate thread because several debates are getting mixed up here. People are taking this thread away from the purpose it was originally intended for. Quite why people chose to mention Joey Barton within this thread is beyond me.

As has been previously stated, THIS thread is for the GS debate.

So distasteful.

Loving the irony, not. You have high standards to maintain (I mean that genuinely) but this was not your finest effort this time, Sir.

There's a good bit of missing the point here, & I'm not sure if it is deliberate or not.

Discuss & specualte on Gary Speed or anyone else as much as you wish, it's perfectly fine.

But, you know, a normal human being with a modicum of respect for others might just wait until the body is cold, & the poor chap has been laid to rest, right? THAT was why the Threads were split, & offence was caused. I refuse to believe you cannot see that.

 

deeper hole...


 

Yes Tony that is your opinion and I wouldn’t seek to deny you that opinion. Attitudes towards death differ markedly dependant upon many different factors and individual religions and attitudes so I would think carefully before I labelled you or anybody else disrespectful.

In this case the circumstances of his demise should be thoroughly investigated imo. If a death is criminally suspicious the police will start their investigations immediately because respect issues aren't as important as finding out what happened. The death of GS is not criminally suspicious but it is definitely a suspicious incident and so personally I don’t think it’s wise to delay asking these questions. I think it’s more respectful to pursuit it with vigour as soon as possible than to turn away and be silent, but that is just me.

I remember when Diana died in tragic circumstances and immediately people were challenging the press. I mean straight away on the night it happened people were asking questions about press involvement and did they cause her death. Diana's body wasn't cold but people felt so stunned and confused they wanted answers. Were all those people disrespectful to Diana and her memory?

I read a piece by Stan Collymore over the weekend who said he knew exactly how GS felt because he has been suicidal with depression. He recounted how he had been in bed for 5 weeks unable to move before he attempted suicide. Why is that story of mental illness linked to the death of GS who wasn’t in bed for 5 weeks with depression? The depression theory is just pure speculation by the media, but that is the sort of speculation people are seemingly fine with. I am not happy with that speculation and would like to speculate for an answer closer to the truth. Whether you agree with me or not is beside the point. That is my view and my posts on the subject were never once disrespectful to a man I admired greatly and had a lot of affection for. So for fellow Blonde members to be allowed to tell me to shut the fuck up and for my thoughts to be censored and for mods to label me disrespectful and distasteful is quite something. I refuse to believe you cannot see that.

If it's the same Collymore piece that I read, that was written before Speed's death.

This one:  http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ecoqm1

But were the comments not removed and your thoughts re-instated?

You should not have been told to "stfu", & I'm sorry if you were, but some Members seem unable to construct a reasonable, or even any, debate above that base level. Who on earth would pay attention to a debate constructed on that level, anyway?

No buddy I had a whole post removed because it was apparently distasteful. A mod was on thread at the time and left the flaming of me up for all to see. So I defended myself because I wasn't being disrespectful at all. Then I was tagged disrespectful by the mods and my opinions removed.

The Stan Collymore piece is a different one than that quoted and it was written after his death and is supposed to link in and explain his death. It was on the page after Lorraine Kelly wtf?? had written a piece entitled Gary couldn't beat the Blues. I mean c'mon I'm not the only one speculating. Anyway it's no big deal for me just saying.

Have you got a link to the subsequent piece?  Not too keen on what Lorraine Kelly has to say though!

http://www.people.co.uk/sport/football/news/2011/12/04/stan-collymore-only-my-mum-s-voice-stopped-me-taking-my-own-life-102039-23607829/

:)up

Actually, a single mod (i.e. me) told you that he found your poste disrespectful and distasteful.  Your post, and the subsequent abusive posts, had been removed sometime prior to this.  The subsequent comments were only made in response to your public rant against the Mods team in general and were very clearly stated as being my opinions.  However, why bother letting facts get in the way when you're clearly on a roll?

To be clear, its worth pointing out that I thought the post was disrespectful to the OP, as you'd blatantly ignored his request in the thread not to speculate on it.  And yes, I found it distasteful for you to continue speculating on an emotive tribute thread, in the face of such requests being made.

And to clarify further, if this was just my personal opinion of your post and there'd been no adverse response to it, then there'd have been no action taken on it.  However, the fact that more than one person had already responded as they did demonstrated that it wasn't just me who felt that your post was inappropriate and deliberately provocative on that thread.  Consequently, all were removed from the thread - the abusive posts and the provocative one.

By the way, congratulations on your attempts so far to subsequently de-rail this thread from the debate you felt it was so important to have.

I will of course answer your points sheriff. However, I would like the mods including you to know that when I post in the future I will do my best to respect your rules. In addition I have no real wish for some negative spiral debate with you guys.

Sheriff your post is quite sarcastic and provocative in itself but there you go. Every post I made prior to being told to shut the fuck up is still available for anybody to read. Point to the one which justifies personal abuse? I saw a mod viewing the thread and came back later to see the flaming hadn’t been moderated so sought to defend myself. My opinion is the comment should have been moderated before then. However, there are a few instances of people telling me to fuck off which weren’t moderated before so it appears you guys have a reasonable tolerance for this. I think I have explained my motivation for involvement, at some length actually, even though it was “beyond” you to understand, and it clearly isn’t to provoke trouble. Other people are looking to provoke trouble hence why other people flame. There is no flaming from me in any of those posts.

I don’t think I was guilty of a public rant against the Mods team. I said I figured it was possible to aspire to a greater level of consistency. This is pretty good feedback that you would do well to consider. I cited the Amy Winehouse thread to demonstrate how this was so. Perhaps it would be wise to contemplate the feedback rather than getting anxious. In addition saying you only posted the disrespectful and distasteful comments as response is quite provocative and argumentative itself don’t you think? The reason I used mods plural was because I thought you guys had some sort of consultation system with other mods before making decisions. I would say a single guy moderating on his own and deciding things on the behalf of an OP by using personal opinions and preferences explains why greater consistency is possible. And I don’t think a couple of reactionary posts either way should be compromising neutrality.

I have contributed significantly to the debate in this thread so perhaps you deserve the congratulations.

Barton is deffo a cock

distasteful

Sorry

Barton is deffo a c*ck

mildly disrespectful

Thankfully, there's a 4 year old post out there which does a pretty good job of replying to your latest de-rail.  Enjoy.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=25383.0

this is how well a player can cover up depression. leon mckenzie tried to kill himself was taken to hospital then went into training the next day with no-one any the wiser

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2071792/Leon-McKenzie-suicide-attempt-depression--interview.html

Sure enough McKenzie did a good job disguising his depression at work. Vastly different trying to hide the symptoms at home thou. And tellingly enough McKenzie was in tears on the phone to his mum several times. Hence if McKenzie did the unthinkable his family would be able to confirm anxiety issues. Gary Speed's family are mystified because he didn't display any anxiety symptoms.

Secondly, the difference in the two characters and their circumstances are stark. LM was estranged from his wife and kids who were his life whereas GS had a seemingly idyllic homelife. LM was beset with lengthy career threatening injuries and he was worried he had no future. GS had a very successful playing career and a promising future in management. LM had to deal with the tragic suicide of his sister who was having race and identity issues which he may have shared. GS had no such history and was a proud and certain of his heritage. LM says he went around squandering money on gambling and nights out whereas GS was a settled family man and the captain of every club he played for. So again if LM did the unthinkable there is significant evidence to point to why.

Thirdly, it is my understanding that depression suicides usually happen after a lengthy downward spiral and ends up with the individual succumbing to that option as the final straw. And usually they do it away from the home. LM had a lengthy downward spiral and was away from home. Stan Collymore had a 5 week downward spiral and took a rope to some woods. GS was on Football Focus, at ManU, at a party and everybody says he was on top form. He suddenly snap decided to do it at home seemingly without the life issues and worries LM had and without displaying anxiety to his family at any point.

The article only serves to demonstrate the vast differences between a classic depression suicide attempt and GS's demise imo.