blonde poker forum

Monte Carlo day 3. 12/13 players left, we're 6/7 handed. Can't remember, sorry.

Started the day on 630k and been battered for the first hour and a half and dropped to about 230k

In a tough spot with huge aggro stack BB to my cut off + decent player BB to my hj.

I've been pretty tight but made a few raises just in case I happen to get something. Been 3 bet every time by the aggro big stack + 5 bet once when I made a stand hence the stack issues now.

So the hand in question....

I've got 230k, blinds 8k, 16k + 2k

Folds to me in the cut off and I've got  Kc Jc

What should I do?

a - fold

b - raise / fold

c - raise / snap (fold to sb or button who're much tighter)

d - shove and hope nobody's got anything.

I elected to do a fold but hated myself bitterly for it. I was conscious of preserving my FE and also like I said I was feeling particularly beaten up at the time. I had a feeling the huge stack sensed this beaten feeling hence my thoughts on possible raise / snap.

Thoughts?

Easy ship

Its a Jam for me

Sigh....

First instinct was ship when I saw 2 such beautiful cards then I got all weak and mofo like.

End thread please :D

very happy about jamming here

I jam, Guy Johnson raise folds, anything else he says he does is just a lie!

2 broadway cards =ship.
2 broadway cards in clover = do a little dance then ship

No more free lessons if you continue to spread these scurrilous lies!   ;nemesis;

shoving a range of 22+ A2s+ A8o+ K4s+ KTo+ Q7s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 98s 87s here with this stack

fyp

Yeah was amazed with myself for passing.

Definitely due to feeling 'beaten up'. Normally they'd have been in the middle pretty quick.

Any thoughts on raise calling given what I said about the aggro stack?

Pretty sure his calling range is pretty much restricted to everything that beats us whereas his shove range includes a lot more besides? 99% certain he doesn't have a flatting range other than maybe AA and KK.

If we're happy to get it in anyway should we be adding a few hands to his range?

Nah i don't think it'll fool too many people plus you want to be balanced for the times you'll shove as a bluff

by jamming he folds all the stuff we flip vs and lots of small aces that are ahead. Basically we put pressure on him, we've made a good play and we are going to make him post a PHA thread 2 days later about this muscly medium weak baldy guy who has an undefined range and is jammin from LP.

It is a deffo a shove and would have thought it is unexploitable (without looking) as well.

seems a v unexplotable shove.

Can u explain this pls marc?

an un-exploitable play is one that, against an opponent who will play 100% perfectly against you, it will still show a profit.

or are you asking how a play can be VERY unexploitable as opposed to just unexploitable lol

Any details on the 4b/f with <30bb's?

Sounds like this was the reason for not shoving this pretty simple spot.

Nothing overly interesting and didn't really affect me at all.

Had 50 bigs at the time, it was in the previous level. I wouldn't 4b/f with 30 bigs, my 4 bet would've been a jam.

I made it 25k at 6k/12k + 1000

He 3 bet to 53k.

I made it 105k and folded when he shipped.

I had Q8dd. Was just making a stand.

A friend watching the updates said he had AK. My timing sucks :)

Nah more what an unexplotable shove was. As in, a shove that cannot be plotted on a graph? What sort of shove is this?

Basically you could turn your cards over, have your opponents choose what they'll call or fold with and it still won't be a losing play

whoosh

Doesn't seem close. Pretty much shoving most hands > Q7 here.
Seems pointless preserving fold-equity if we are only shoving hands > KJs? Folding KJs here is doing quite the opposite.
I guess normally it's a standard shove for you, but in game-time it's never that simple.

Wp overall though, great run

Muckthenuts is right.

An Unexploitable shove means no matter what ranges the people behind you call, they cannot make the shove -EV. So if they all call 20% it is still +ev, if the call 100% it is still +ev, it one calls 20%, one 50%, one 10% it is still +ev etc............

Lil Dave is more referring to nash equilibrium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium), where people shove mathematically perfect and opponents call mathematically perfectly.

Why this range?

Why do we want to be balanced?

Alex is pointing out that attention to detail is more important when answering these things..

Always thought u were a weak ass mofo. I mean look at ya....

because these hands are good hands to steal the blinds and antes with since they will have decent equity when called? maybe can be tighter on the suited kings and queens but apart from that it'd be my default

phew glad someone got it.

unexplotable is just what I say when I want to justffy a shove but if I say it's unexploitable someone will call bs ;)

Stage fright ?

Alex you passed the same hand in the co in the one you won for ~15 bbs, was Ft maybe 6 handed, can you remember ?

it was KTsuited but yeh, probably was a shove also. i was also a weak mofo for folding that!

in my defence, it wasn't parsley so a better fold imo.

Whats the order  Kc Tc>>> Kd Td>> Ks Ts>> Kh Th  ?

Why shove the topend of your range, surely raise call is better?

for balance

no need to balance against pigeons you will play 100 hands a year with. You only need to balance here if you have already built up history with the opponents, wherby they have seen you in this spot shove weak and raise/call the top-end which we probably don't have.

I think Alex was levelling, Trigg is of course spot on.

there were decent players in the blinds who're defo going to notice if we're raising out of a 10bb stack instead of shoving. look sooo strong.

we aint got 10 bigs yo. we got 230k @ 8/16k

+ I've already raise folded to the big aggro stack a couple of times.

As I've said I felt that his calling range was pretty much every hand that beats me. He isn't calling with worse.

There's maybe a couple of very weak aces that he folds and really bad pairs but that's about it.

His shoving range obviously includes all the hands that beat me but also a lot more that I beat and even crush. If we're prepared to get it in surely it's better to open up his range?

Against weaker opposition I'm almost certain I'd have shoved. Against this guy with loads of chips, probably 1.5M at the time I didn't really like it.

I considered shoving obviously but then decided that playing for 24 hours to spew a reasonable stack with KJ was a bit silly.

I then considered raise calling for the reasons above. I think my stack still had one more raise/fold left in it so he'd definitely think he had FE.

At the time I elected the safe route but my afterthoughts were that raise >>>>> shove >>>>> fold.

We don't want him to shove though. We don't want him to shove hands like QT, Ax, small pairs, even hands like 98ss - hands that have lots of equity vs us. We don't want to be in an allin situation vs these hands.

When we shove we want him to fold, let that not be misunderstood. We'd like the 16k + 8k + antes which'll add around 10-15% to our stack without showdown. The only reason we choose KJs to shove rather than 72o, is that when called, KJs is a pretty decent hand and has tons more equity than 72o.

Shove>>>>Raise/call imo.

These preflop situations aren't like river bets, where you're either betting for value (so have in your head the worse hands that your opponent might call you with), or as a bluff (and you have in mind some better hands your opponent might fold).

yeh with KJss shove loads better than raise/call, i was talking about the top of his range

gotta remember as well that even if you have the history with an opponent who is capable of exploiting your unbalance here, the conbinatronic liklihood of him ACTUALLY being able to exploit you is quite small in live poker where the spot will crop up only 4-5times MAXIMUM, so the vacuum profit you get from playing an exploitable PF strategy vs the weaker players really does justify it imo.

I would always go with an exploitative vacuum play > any GTO plays in live poker cos that's how you win one specific tourney on one specific day, not that i'd know this ofc but I think I've seen flushy do it

oh right yeh thought u were disputing the bottom of the range. KJss isn't strong enough for min raise/call here though imo. i want to win the blinds and antes first and foremost with this shallow a stack.

MEDIUM WEAK xxxxxx

burn tittybean burn.

gl getting that $12 now

have a terrible christmas xxx

i'll consider it your Xmas pressie, better than you owing $300 and us both just forgetting like medium weak live tourny pros IS IT.

yh agreed, knocking you for $300 is too much and greatly against the code of ethical grimming, $12 is fine I can sleep happily with that :)

that post sounds like Rob Yong trying to tell me (after sucking out with AT<A5 aip in our HU sng) that my AT was a bad call because although mathematically it's correct, we were only playing that match once so I should've waited for a better hand. ;)

THE LONG RUN DOESN'T MATTER IF ITS JUST ONE HAND LDO

<3 ethical grimming between friends.

that's nothing like what I meant lol.

Sigh i am so out of my depth. I don't even understand some of the words in that sentence.

'conbinatronic' is my new fave ever word. Happy xmas all xx