blonde poker forum

I'd like to continue the fine tradition of every PHA board by discussing a spot while holding Jacks.

SPT Luton.  Day 2.  27 remain from 200, 22 paid.  Blinds are 2k/4k/400.  Villain is a player we've played with a bit in the past.  They are normally straight forward and solid but not adverse to over valuing certain hands.  Previous to this hand they have flatted our 2.2x raise in the BB and donk-lead a monotone 358 board with offsuit 22; and 3bet our 2.2 open with AQo from the BB.  We are seen to be aggressive.  We have been quite active.

The hand

Villain (playing 120k) opens for 15k UTG
All folds to us in Cut-off playing 100K and looking down at  Js Jd
All stacks behind us are 60k-90k

In play I have 25BB facing a 3.75x UTG open and I didn't like any of my options.

appreciate it is a hard situation.

Whilst i dont expect too many people going crazy nearish the bubble, i think flatting to induce a jam from these 20ish bb stacks is going to be best and playing a smaller pot in position vs an inferior player who will be quite face up with his sizings.

I definitely think folding is an ok option too as we are quite shallow and he has shown alot of strength from his bet size and position and if we were in sb and it had folded round would probably be a pass. Just dont telll anybody, pretend u had j5 or something.

I think if flop comes ace higg and he checks il start unloading the barrels,,if he double barrels low board/korq high boards then il make a quite tight but hopefully right fold ott.

No way I don't spite jam here when they 3.75x, pretty happy about it too.

i thought we had 35bbs for some reason, eegh this is such a shitty horrible puke spot

Pretty unlikely they have KK/AA but anything is possible live I guess, probs folds AK face up "don't need to take on a flip".

really? Seems like a standard push to me.

I thought so too

when called we are just absolutely crushed.

Any more info on bet sizings at all through different stages of different hands.

People probably think im awful, but i think jamming here can be a huge leak in a live tournament players game.

Far,far too many people but things down as standard, id say around 70pc of supposed standard exits arent standard and could/should be avoided by taking a less results orientated line.

The upside is that if we get chips we can tear apart 22 plauers around bubble/final table bubble as we have said field is super soft and passive.

In the previous hands I mentioned he donk bet 2/3 pot with the 22 on the monotone board.  I dwelt folded something like AJ no club after tanking a resteel attempt and got a show from him.  The 3bet with AQ was 26k total over a 9k open, it wo the pot and I got another show.  He's normally a 3x man so this is large.  Haven't seen much else from him before this hand on this day as he was only in a few other pots which didn't see a flop.  This hand is the third level of the day, about 2 hours in.

My real problem was I had direct position on the best player at the table and plenty of tight players behind me.  I really think I can find a fold here because there are so many good places to nick from in later spots to survive while trying to find that big double hand to push through to the FT.

Agree completely that just putting these spots down as standard is a leak, don't think this is completely standard at all.

with the further info we have i do a fold.

I definitely agree with you with regards to "standard" not being standard quite often as I think online players don't adapt to live play being so so different. However, in this spot in this comp, which I believe has a quick structure ? I think jamming is best.

i just got really tilted monda..

On your avartar you have to get a balla stack size too.. Sitting out? Rofffl

Haha, I was only planning to have it there for a few days after I done it but haven't found anything to change it too, well I can think of one thing  ;whistle;

Don't think I've posted it on this board actually....

3.75x deffo tends to be 88-QQ more often than AA-KK with live players.

i actually think the opposite, i think more than normal = qq+ and realllly large = jj/ak. But youve seen alotttt more people play love poker hands than me.

I ddin't see who you clashed with.

Was it a Sky player with history or a random/local player?  Think that changes things quite a bit.

3.75 is lol.

If they've heard of the internet I am snap jamming.

If they haven't I think its close to a fold but jam is prolly also fine. Don't like flatting at all if he's donking alot because then were just playing flop bingo.

Played this event, I'm folding JJ here

Thanks for saying hello tommy ;)

Sky Player, Uncle Pat.

You were too busy rapping on the mic ;)  We did have a couple of brief chats Sir, I just have a really bad habit of never telling anyone who I am.


I jammed, my thinking went the way of 77-QQ or AK rather than KK+.  I got to look at those black aces.  I think it's more of a leak than a cooler, if I'm not sure and think there's a good chance of better spots maybe just getting out of the way is a better play.

It says in OP that he is solid and they have a little history, but then it says he 3.75x it so I'm confused.

Not a quick structure, 2 day DTD Deepstack structure FWIW


My default when I was reading the OP was jam, btw

do it. in fact we should all change to pics of her

I got it confused with the event I played at Newc but that was a 1dayer, mb.

Still think the same.

Yes, 15,000 starting chips, 45 minute clock, 25-50 upwards, all normal levels including 500-1,000.

Nice structure, think its a clear fold, good discussion :)

[ ] included 500-1000

 ;whistle;

[  ] folding

As such was my confusion.  We're talking of an older, tighter player, hence normally 3x-ing.  However he is aware of the internet.  The point of the matter probably is does a tight player increase their UTG open to a) discourage calling to be outplayed/be put in a tough spot on the later streets or b)  discourage 3betting to be put in a tough spot preflop/lose the betting advantage in the hand.  He had Snoopy, Julian and myself all sat behind him.  Also, as the average was about 110k/120k at this point, can we let hands like Jacks go while sat on 25BB if we're not sure?
haha, this is obviously fair.  If he goes and mucks AQo to a jam this thread probably never happens.  I just want to know if this is standard or avoidable.  :)

Seems a clear jam. 99 is close, probably jamming tens. Live players generally aren't basing their opening ranges based upon position as much as online, so we certainly are ahead of villains range by a decent amount. I guess calling and letting villain barrel isnt terrible, but i'd just shove and sigh when he snaps. Definately couldn't be considered a leak if you are shoving here. 88/99 maybe.

Side note, what is avg stack? Are there a bunch of tiny stacks? If so, you could possibly find an ICM excuse to fold, but otherwise arrrrrlll innnn

Good idea.

+1

This thread must be a giant level. Who the hell is folding Jacks to one raise (even if it is 3.75x) with 25bbs? Are you all friggin nuts?

fyp

Not a level.  Just a hang over from about level 3 to level 7 on day one where all I saw were early position raisers opening from 4x to 6x, collecting the blinds and showing QQ or AK while being happy about not getting action.  Wasn't this guy on Day one, but so many people were scared to play out of position that they just wanted to scare everyone away.

When I played the Newc one guy 6x'd it utg got to showdown and showed A3os, variance.

Does anyone out there like the CALL option?
I've been looking at this hand, and out of the three possible options available CALL seems to be the least worst choice out of three bad ones.
My thinking is-
                     If we jam and everyone folds, we add nearly 25% to our stack, which is great, but we are still a long way from the big money.
                     If we jam and villian calls, 38% of the time we win a great pot to put us in with a great chance in the comp, but, we walk 62% of the time
                     If we fold, not the end of the world, but we possibly miss an opportunity to double up versus our solid but fairly staightforward opponent.
                     If we call, we play a pot in position against the original raiser and if an oponent yet to act shoves we get to see the original raiser's response before committing more chips. If anyone else just flats, whille not ideal,
                      it improves our odds to set mine.
                     If, as expected, we play the pot in position against the original raiser. If we hit our jack, happy days. If we miss and villian leads out, we give up.
                     If villian checks, we check behind, for another shot at hitting our jack.
                     If villian bets the turn we generally give up. If he checks we bet, folding to a shove.

 Just wondering if anyone thinks that a CALL is a viable option here, or am i being too nitty / passive as usual ?

Say he's raising a really tight range - AJ+, 88+ only, and he's calling a shove with AQss, AK and TT+ (seems a likely range). That means he's folding half the time and we increase our stack by 25%. When called we're 44% vs his calling range.

Its a really simple shove even if he's raising really tight. Throw in some KQs, KJss, AT, smaller pairs and its even more of a no brainer.

Cheers for that reply Alex.
According to my EV calcs, using your raising / calling ranges, shoving is indeed a +EV move, showing a 6828 chips profit.
But, if you take TT out of villian's calling range, giving him a range of 3.3% of hands, shoving is still +EV, but only by a mere 878 chips, making it virtually a neutral EV move.
I'm not disputing the fact that shoving is frequently a good move, but in this situation, i think it's very close and highly dependant on villian not having a very narrow calling range, which i think villian may well have in this scenario.
 Factoring in other things, such as tournament equity and hero's perceived edge at the table, shoving doesn't look like such a good idea to me. Which is why i wondered if calling was a viable move, as folding JJ, especially in position, seems a little too passive.
  Just having a go by the way, so i dont mind if anyone wants to put me right if i'm totally barking up the wrong tree.  :)

Calling is better than folding at least, but I don't like it - you'll probably be forced into making a ton of mistakes postflop.

thing is AJ+ 88+ should def not be considered a tight opening range for him here

Ur not folding though are u stato?

Well i wouldnt have made it this far.

Nah I don't think im folding but its prob far closer than it looks

Jamming JJ in this comp is a huge mistake imo.

yeh but he makes it less with the weaker part of his range and bigger wiht the bigger hands or so we assume.