blonde poker forum

In live No limit Hold'em, should a player

a) be told what the pot size is by the dealer if asked

b) be able to "bet the pot"

that's 2 questions

no, no

nope on both

he can bet the pot but only if he works out whats then there for himself and announces bet xxx

I've always wondered why a player can't be told the pot-size though. better than spreading it and waiting for the player to count.

why?

What's the reasoning behind not wanting the dealer to be able to tell a player what the pot size is?

richard richard,

how can u b asking those questions when u r a TD?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO IS THE ANSWER

I am not asking as a TD lol, I know the answer and I know why the rule is in place ....... I have been told by a UK pro that it should be allowed, and he said if I ask anyone who knows anything about poker they would allow it too? Hence my question :)

no, no.

In theory the answer to both should be yes. Playing the devil's advocate and in the interest of fairness, inclusion and equality; in Q1 perhaps you have a numerically dislexic customer or a colour blind customer or a customer who is sight blind and has been unfairly distracted from following the action in his usual way (i presume through mental arithmetic and careful listening of the action or with the help of an assistant) then why not allow it on occasion in the spirit of making reasonable adjustments for all?!.  And in Q2, betting the 'pot' would be a specifc bet amount would it not? therefore if declared it should both be allowed and stand as a bet. 

However in the interests of time and speeding up the game i could understand why clubs would not allow it.

Junior, if that is the case if someone says "I bet a quarter of the pot", should that stand in no limit?

it displays the pot size and and allows u bet the size of the pot online....................

hmmmmmmmmm.
fair challenge. i guess if 1/4 of the pot is a whole number divisible by the chip denominations available then yes but see how this could get silly if someone decides they want to bet 63% of the pot.

would that stand in pot limit?

No but I was trying to say if a specific bet is stated then it shouldn't necessarily go.

PaulHo, that is the arguement I am up against.

What if there is £205 in the middle, a player says I bet pot. Then chucks in the £5 chip first, and then then rest.

I think intention was pretty clear here no? But would it stand as a £5 bet?

Theoretically the dealer will be providing assistance to the player not required by the rules of the game.  He can count a bet as calling the amount of that bet is required by the rules.

Hallelujah!!!

Free Rollin, the other half of the arguement against, is the stroke pull "if it isn't allowed", i.e I bet the pot (1200), sorry sir you are held to a bet but the pot isn't a legitimate bet, ok then I bet 25 kind of thing after seeing a players reaction.

Lol, I'm not sure if you agree with my point or not. If we take your example, and the 1200 bet doesn't count, then yes, you can gain an advantage. So the first declaration should be binding.

That's the thing Sunny I am just putting the other side of the discussion so people can way up themselves :)

There are 3 points of view to consider;

The Player
The Dealer
The TD

Have you not won this argument yet rich? Lol.

Told you my opinion. Will post it when I get to a pc, along with the explanation you asked mw to recite :P

Nope, v1.3 is telling me I failed lol

A player can't be told the pot size in a non pot game because the bets are known and its not difficult maths to add up the raises preflop x n amount of players.

If a player 'declared' pot in a non potlimit game then the bet would have to be the minimum.


A player cannot be told the pot size as this is giving information that he already has access to.

+1
CHIPPYMAN knows all  :D :D

In general can't dealers work out the size of the pot faster than most players?
Specifically any player that asks the question is certainly only going to ask because, for whatever reason, they're incapable/incompetent or just slow at working out the pot size themselves.

So doesn't it slow the game down by not allowing the dealers to help?





The information is freely available - so what harm does it do?

What effect does it have apart from speeding up the game?

Knowing the exact size of a pot is an advantage that I, and many others, often use when working out correct sizings. Why should we lose this advantage because someone cant be arsed?

Russel the ex DTD dealer always summed it up best.

No limit hold'em is a game of incomplete information where players must use all available information to make the best possible decision.

If you want to know the size of the pot on every street, either a) play online (where they dont have a choice but to show it) or b) play pot limit

You don't have to wear clothes when you play online...

Think it's good once in a while to challenge these rules which may or may not have become outdated. Our local gala STILL antes people when they miss a round of the button and cannot really justify why they do this. Such a tilting ridic rule but seems to remain because it's a rule they've always had

I agree, but top of the list to review HAS to be the way the string-betting rule is implemented in the UK.

I am not sure I have ever seen an intended string-bet, to be honest, or advantage gained from one. OK, some smartalec will remember one or two, but its out of all proportion to the arguments it causes, especially for newbies struggling to learn the game, whom we should be encouraging.

AGREE! Most outdated ridiculous rule ever.

This reminded of the kid who sat next to you Tikay at the last DTD Deepstack. I did feel sorry for you especially when he didnt lose his chips to you in that one hand. :)

Why are we objecting to someone being told the pot size by the dealer if the player asks him to count it?  i hate it when they tell the player without asking but thats obv bad form.

Shouldn't a player be able to follow how much is in the pot, or work it out?  Isn't that one of the skills of the live game (as mentioned earlier)?

Yes. But does it really matter?

Just how much of an advantage are they gaining by just being told?

Especially as the alternative is most likely that they ask the dealer to spread the chips so that they can laboriously try and count them out like that - wouldn't it just be a lot more efficient if they could just ask and the dealer told them?

...and if someone asks on every street of every hand?

not sure anyone's particularly objecting. more saying that they shouldn't be told because that's clearly set out in the tda rules

whether or not it's a good rule is a different discussion

Isn't negotiating a good deal at the final table one of the skills of the live game?

If poker did abandon deal making it would slightly disadvantage players with people skills....so why not announce the pot and slightly disadvantage players who are good at maths while we're about it? Poker scientists with dominant left brain activity shouldn't get priority over poker artists with dominant right imo ;)

Really might try that live
And give that excuse

 The amount of times any one player in a given tournament wold really ask to know the pot size is so small that i cant see an issue with them beng given that information if asking for it. It will usually be when they are facing a decisin to call on river IMO rather than each street to decide on sizing.

Whats the current position by the way at Dtd? If next time i go i bet pot what will the dealer tell me?

If you say "I bet pot", they'll ask you how much you want to bet. 

If you ask what the pot is, they'll tell you they're not allowed to say, but will spread the pot for you so you can see the chips more clearly.

No, players should not be told what the pot is. And no, they should not be allowed to bet the pot.

If they want to know how much is in there then they should pay attention.

Obviously online it displays it because it pretty much doesn't have any choice.

But in the live game it is a players responsibility to follow the action and keep a running total (roughly) in their head.

And I agree that the string betting rule needs sorting out. So so so badly missapplied in every tournament I've played in. Throw in some chips where one happens to hit the felt half a second before the rest? OMG. STRING BET. DEALER. STRING BET. GET THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR. STRING BET. So so tilting.

YES YES YES to you both, without question the stupidest rule in poker.

I agree tikay I have never seen anyone deliberately string-bet in a live game, or try gain an advantage (one of the most famous ones was on the main when a guy who couldn't speak english moved 2million chips over, then brought them back and only bet 1million - was an obv string bet) but iv never seen in person.

What I have seen however, more times than i can count, is someone trying to bet £200, but mistakenly dropping £25 first as he puts his money over the line and another player in the pot (who will happily call £25 but doesn't want to call £200) getting the floor and insisting the bet is £25. How that isn't considered an angle-shoot is beyond me. its a rule that just relentlessly allows people to angle really innocent little mistakes.

In america they use the rule of "forward motion" where regardless of what you do with your chips it's the interpreted INTENTION that count's. so if i make a gesture the shows an intention to bet £200, then it stands, if i drop a few chips by mistake they don;t punish you. Much much better rule.

And ye, no to both initial questions, I can't think of any good reason why the dealer shouldn't be allowed to count the pot but I don't care cos it makes no difference to anyone's life. If people ask the dealer whats in the pot in hands vs me, I just tell them myself wat's in the pot I can't see how it makes a single difference, but as I say, I don't care :D

agree with george. lots of outdated rules, need to be looked at.

Try asking a dealer if they will make a cup of tea for you.  They will tell you to gtfo because it isn't their job.  Telling you what the size of the pot is or who open raised pre-flop or if anyone is on tilt isn't their job either.  The dealers job is to run the game, not be holdem manager.

what lilD said.


There is a large mound of chips in the pot, we're playing NL what is in the pot is up to you to remember. Though i'd rather tell someone the pot than wait for them to get it spread and just stare at it and waste time.

I just don't get the point of forcing someone to add up the pot themselves, is it so you can feel superior?

no it's because lots of people cant add + make mistakes + dem rules + speed of gameplay.

If you can ask for the pot on one hand, you'd be able to ask every hand, or even on every street. 

yes - but people won't. Unless they want to deliberately be annoying - and if that's their intention they'll just be currently doing it in a different way.

Because it's the rules is irrelevant - rules can be changed if they're not good rules
To speed up the game is irrelevant because it takes longer for the players that ask to work it out themselves than if the dealer just told them.

Because people can't add up and might make a mistake is a fairly reasonable argument - but like with the string bet rule - how often is that going to apply? How much of a mistake are people going to make because they think there's 120k in the pot when actually there's only 100k for example?

It is completely and utterly irrelevant to the business of running a NL game.   

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if0wUfhUBe8 Simples.

When I see that happen I use my better judgement. Like if the blinds are 300/600 someone places 1600 in their hand and moves the hand over the line and that little 100 chip drops out, I won't call string bet because I have just sat and watched them and I know the intent. There are so many factors to take into account. Like if the chips are sticky, if someone has a bad grip. If i see a forward motion from the player, im not going to be a dick and call a string bet when it blatantly wasn't one.

Now i've posted this  i may have to re-think my standing on it or hope players don't use this little snippet of info to their advantage :p

I don't think players ask how much is in the pot often enough for it to be such a big deal.  Even knowing the pot size doesn't necessarily mean you'll size your bet properly.  I've often seen dealers stacking the chips rather than lumping them in a pile which makes the pots much easier to count. Easier to count, and when you win a big pot they're easier to incorporate back into your stack than having to re-stack a big pile.

maybe that's because they know they won't be told. I would never ask a dealer the pot size but if rules were changed so they had to tell me then I would ask them everytime if I hadn't been paying attention

Thats the thing, your playing no limit holdem .....

Your speech would determine the action.

So,

If you said "I would like to bet/raise pot" the dealer would explain you are playing no limit so he/she can not tell you the pot, but since you said bet/raise you have to make an aggressive action, weather thats by your count of the pot or what you like.

If you ask for the count of the pot you would just get the explanation of pot limit and the pot spread.

No dealer should be stacking the pot. Ever. Its fine to stack and pass once the hand is over or if there is an all in being counted but that is it. 

Player "Pot" Dealer "FFS"

Player "I put him all in" Dealer "Jesus FFS"

This just happened on my table in the super 50...... No, it wasnt me!
It was annoying and shouldnt be allowed, i have changed my view.
Dealer dealt with it well for the record.

Hate it when the dealer spreads the chips so someone who is involved in a hand, but hasn't been paying attention, can start counting the pot. I would outlaw that as well.

Thats also down to if some is pretty bad at maths or honestly lost count. Easily done.