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Tournament Registration Fees at Dusk Till Dawn Club

Effective from Monday 16th April, after the UKIPT, we will be changing the way we charge registration fees at Dusk Till Dawn on all new tournaments, ones that we have already qualified players for like the £150 supersized will have to stay the same. It’s very important that everyone understands how this will work. Here are the new charges and how they will work for all tournaments set up from 1st April.

• Dusk Till Dawn Club tournaments will no longer have the registration fee added to the buy-in, for example;

Super 50 will no longer £50 + £8, it will be just £50

•   Dusk Till Dawn Club will deduct 10% from the total number of entries X buy-ins as its fees (for comps at buy-ins less than £50, there will be a minimum deduction of £5 per for 1 day tournament and £10 for a 2 day+ tournament), for example;

If we had 200 entries for a Super 50, we will deduct 200 x £50 x 10% = £1000, instead of charging 200 x £8 reg fee = £1600

•   Dusk Till Dawn Club tournaments GTE prizepools will still be the prizepool that is shared between the players, for example

If the GTE for a Super 50 is £10,000, this is £10,000 that the players win, therefore we would need to generate 220 entries to meet the GTE, instead of 200 previously, if the Super 50 only got 200 entries, Dusk Till Dawn would get zero revenue from the tournament, it would all go to the players

The reasons for this are;

1.   To make the world a simpler place for players, a £50 buy-in is a £50 buy-in, a Super 50 is a Super 50, not a Super 58! Therefore all players, no matter how experienced, can easily relate their total expenditure to their potential win

2.   To reduce the cost of entry and registration in our tournaments i.e. a £150 comp actually is a £168 comp in reality, on the new system, the player pays £150 (full stop) and 10% is deducted before the GTE prizepool, in this case, £15 instead of £18

3. It is something we have wanted to put in place for ages, I've never understood why there is such a thing as a reg fee on top of a buy-in, yes, venues cannot deal comps for nothing, especially with higher taxes etc but lets not try and make the entry look "less", players know that £500 + £60 is actually £560 out of their pocket

Important
I am not aware of anyone else except the WSOP that has uses this charging structure and they do not GTE their events, based on our current tournament numbers, this will cost Dusk Till Dawn £125,000 + per annum to make these changes just on reductions in registration fees alone, before you build in any shortfall in hitting our GTE’s, so it’s a pretty bold move. However, before we put a halo on the Club, we have done this in the hope that we get uplift in player numbers that covers this reduction in tournament income and then everybody is a winner!

If you have any questions - please stick them on this thread and I will answer them personally!

Cheers Rob

any chance of a reduction in rate for the cash or is this asking to much! mabye 5% rake capped at 7-10 rather then 10% rake? or more charges tables rather then rake tables! Or just a good cash game bonus!

But i think the tournement change is a good change!

hi rob. Its great to see a club finally realising what looks far more attractive to the player. I totally agree that to add the price of the buy in on the end does seem a bit of a silly one. I wonder how long it will take other venues to catch on. I do however have one concern. On your post you explain about tournaments that are under £50. Please correct me if im wrong. A minimum charge of £5 if the event is a one day event which is fair enough. But if the same price buy in is over a two day event then the minimum charge doubles to ten pound? That would be a minimum of 20% taken off. For example (and i appriciate this may not happen): one day tournament priced at £40 the £5 would be just one eighth of the total but if the same tournament was over two days a whopping 25% would be taken because the minimum for a two day event is £10. Am i reading this right?

Staking threads just got easier.

I love this idea

well done DTD, great move with this.

I'm not that entirely sure that they consciously do - for a lot of them they talk of a £500 comp and that's what sticks in their head, and it's only when they pay that they realise it isn't, and even then it's no more than a passing thought.

It's the same as people subconsciously thinking something at £99.99 is not in the same price bracket as something which is £100

Great move,

You didn't NEED to do this, in my opinion the reg fees, while slightly higher than competitors, fairly represented the level of quality of tournaments being run at DTD.

Its great that you have made these changes though, things just keep getting better for the player at DTD.

Dislike.

1) I don't like places that hide what the juice is. The reason they just say a round number at the WSOP and other Vegas casinos is because they don't want you to know what the juice is. I once asked what the juice was on a 2+2 thread for the Venetian Deep Stack Extravaganza. The answer I got from the Venitian rep was that it was posted on the walls of their room. WTF? I'm supposed to fly to Vegas only to find out it was 20%? (it's probably not 20%, but I still don't know what it was) Just be honest.

Now, I know you are being open about how much you are charging and not trying to hide it, but £X+Y is the most honest way of displaying a tournament cost. Just make it £45+5 if you want it to be a round number. It also makes it easier to cheat us, as 200 runners x £50 is easy to work out, whereas 200 runners x £45.50 or whatever is going into the prize pool is not. I'm not suggesting you would try and cheat us, but you need to be seen to run a straight game as well as actually running a straight game. In summary, transparency is down with this change.

Along with scrapping your deal making policy you're removing something else that I admired Dusk for.

2) From your point of view, why are you lowering reg fees on tournaments? They are already too cheap. You are already dealing them at a loss. You are not going to get one extra player because of this reg fee change- as someone else above me says, people see the £50 element, and don't stop to think about the +£8, unless it was something ridiculous like £50+£50.

The trouble with this when you make these "cut-your-own-throat" business decisions is that you then spend forever hassling me via email, hassling me by text message, hassling me via Facebook, giving me flyers, and covering blonde with posts all saying "support your club" as if it was my fault that you are running a loss on something.

If you want to cut prices, reduce the cash rake to 5% on .50/1. That would make a real positive difference to the number of players in your club.

[  ] Agree

They are currently the max they can be. Anything above 10% rake is not too low.

I've read Skippy's post several times and still don't agree that is a negative. A pretty major benefit for regular players there, I would have thought

Give over! You spend all day paying 8% rake on reg-infested online tournaments where all PokerStars have to do are a) turn a server on b) watch the server, so virtually 100% profit.

£50+8 is still a great deal for a live tournament full of fish where they have to pay for lights, tables, cards, dealers, chips, heating, rent etc.

Think its great now that £8 from a super 50 can be used towards fuel or food costs.

You think people would play a £500+100 tournament?

Let's rake the fish to death so they have even less chance of winning!

Yeah, sure, lower rake is great for me. But I'm trying to think about the club too. a) They are already dealing comps at a loss b) They are not unreasonably priced at the moment. Why cut prices? I like playing at DTD, and would like the place to do well.

Understand that, but the cost/benefit must have a strong chance of being positive or else Nick would never have agreed  :D

Whilst it's not the case at DTD, Skippy makes a good point that the all-in buyin is used in Vegas to skim the pot without the players realising how much juice they're paying.

You can just imagine how some less poker-orientated UK casino chains may take advantage of tourney buyins not being described as £X+£Y were that notation to become standard.

Obviously great for players, but like Skippy I was more than happy with the juice before.  I maybe play at DTD once or twice a month (would do more if I wasn't 2 hours away) and its such an excellent venue then I have no problem paying the extra few quid compared to other venues juice.

So, for my £20, I now get a £15 tournament, a small glass of coke, and I can play 1 hand of blackjack instead of just the tournament.

Seems more than reasonable to me, thanks.

Skippy, So as a punter You pay less juice but you aren't happy with that?

I am an educated person but can't get my head around it. Dtd intentions are always honorable and fair and Rob is no mug as a business man so am sure he had this worked out. Quit complaining IMO

really good news and well done DTD , this means travelling from Luton just got a bit more appealing , I have the 150 comp in mind , that 18 quid will do nicely for some fuel thanks very much


If you live locally you must be dancing in the street !!!

I think this is a very positive move from DTD and simplifies the whole tournament process for the casual players that are the life blood of the game. If any of the more 'serious' players have a problems with it of the 'thin end of the wedge' variety they should just adjust their thinking to see it as a lower buy in tournament and work out the juice accordingly; if they were happy paying £8 on a £50 then they should be happy paying £5 on a £45! Raking the pot will only ever affect 10% of the field anyway and the vast majority of players will see it as a 'saving'.

Anyone who has ever run a low/ medium stakes tournament will know it's a loss making proposition and the main purpose is to attract players to the other facilities available,in particular the cash games. If this can attract extra players to the club who feel that they've 'saved' money on the tourney then there's a greater chance that they'll sit down at the cash games and actually generate a profit for the club.

From a personal point of view I have no problem with the club trying to cover their tourney costs so while I appreciate the slight discount in rake it wasn't really neccessary,I'm happy to pay anyway. Has anyone at the club thought of using the 'dealer bonus chips' rake they use in Vegas to help pay the costs? Most players happily pay that as well knowing that all of it is going to the house on top of the percentage of the prize pool.

Good luck with the new initiative; it'll be interesting to see how quickly others follow suit.

Not sure I really see the point. Not that I mind either way. At the end of the day you are going to charge us for running a tournament. All that's happening is you're changing the way this is displayed.

To me though it just seems that in effect all tournaments are having their buyins lowered.

£50+£8 becomes £45+£5

£150+£18 becomes £135+£15

So to me it seems you'll be making less money. I don't think anyone here has a problem with your % so not sure why you'd be lowering it. Obviously if you think it'll get more players through to make it up then win-win as you get your juice and prize pools are higher.

That poxy £5 now gets me a drink and a shot at getting my buy in back so yeah, if I could dance, I probably would.  The £18 will make a big difference to some folk.

Skippy,

This is and always has been IMO  dtd all over they try there hardest to make everything they do accessable to us the casual player to make our playing poker socialising and overall dtd experience the best it can be.

They go the extra mile EVERY time without question without fail

they try new things they make changes some good some not so ...but always with us in mind always.

they put a hell of a lot of money into the poker comunity with guarantees etc now reducing reg fees ......... ffs man give them a break its a great idea and welcomed by me for one.

in fact i like it so much a little dance to celebrate  ...............

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/dancing/smiley.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/dancing-emoticon-141.html)

one other point if me and mrs fish both play the super 50 and both re-enter then thats £32 saved and probs a meal at dtd before we leave !! ....

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/eating/yummy.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/yummy-emoticon-1193.html)

If she just plays it, that's £50 saved ;)

good point i may just stay home on sat now and look after the kids !

Folk do realise that means that when you win, you win less money, because the buy in is smaller, right? By your logic you'd be better off playing a £20 comp since then you'd have £148 extra for petrol.

This move is so shrewd it's fantastic!

Wp Dtd! Seems you have found a result which is good for all involved! Vwp

If a tournament is advertised as £x with y% deducted then I think it does make it a lot more straight forward.

There are already tournaments around advertised as £x+£y - but they don't tell you that they also deduct z% for the regulars league from the pot - I think each venue or chain is just going to have to be judged on their openness about the whole thing.

You're only "saving" £18 and £8 if your plan is to go to Dusk till Dawn and play a tournament with no intention of cashing in it.

You "save" £3 on a super 50 and "save" £3 on the £150 deepstack - £5 less going into the prize pool for a super 50 per entry and £15 less going into the prize pool for a £150 deepstack.

Huge positive effect for the players if and when guarantees aren't met.



If I read correctly the effective rake is now 11% as opposed to 16% on a super 50  (45+5 - 50+8) and 11% as opposed to 12% on the £150 (135+15 - 150+18).

Anything that "saves money" is going to be good but when the difference is 1% I'm all for creating a bigger prize pool. Hopefully the reduction of total cost attracts more players to boost said prize pool and generate more revenue for DTD themselves.



Lets hope the field sizes increase and everyone makes some money!

You'll have to go and win it now!  See you tomorrow most probably.

I hope this will attract alot more players

Doesn't effect me that much as I would pay what ever price to play there

hope so bud

Okay, let me deal with a few points that have been raised and let me address these points:

1. Course I don't expect a big uplift by doing this, players love DTD for many reasons, for our tournaments I would have thought we could actually get away with increasing reg fees if we so wished as so many people qualify so the juice is less of an issue, plus 82% of our tourney players are from outside of a 30 mile radius, a few extra quid in their pocket isnt the difference between getting in the car and getting ripped off my the government on fuel costs!

2. 10% from total buy-ins is very transparent, we have the biggest GTE's, we are unique in that we guarantee all our player prize pools, minimum prize in the marketed at the GTE, and the lessor experienced players and the 90% that's are not going to win can outlay less and work out what their minimum return and budged spend, including the possibility of an extra bullet or staying for another comp in the evening or next day

3. DTD has more loyalty that other other poker business in UK, it's because we keep making the right decisions for our players before short term revenues,  the gaming world is full of mistrust, and the vast majority of players trust us because we make decisions like this that we don't have to do, without sounding patronising, even the savvy value hunter players know that we are a decent bunch, you cannot put a price on goodwill, we should we wiped out now with the increase in live poker in the UK over the last few years, but we are not, we are the market leader in live poker, and we operate from a touched up industrial unit in Nottingham! Generally, we do good stuff and we get that back in loyalty over a longer period, and reducing our reg fees is a nice gesture and I know that will pay back over time, no, players are not going stop me in the club and hand me over a tenner at the 500 deepstack, but they might stick with us when the next casino or online tour sets up in the UK!

4.  Prize pools get less at DTD, are you fkn serious? We are going to keep making bigger and bigger prize pools, we are going to keep smashing every record at every buy in level and if players pay less reg fees and we still keep smashing our numbers, everyone is a winner, 100k for a 150 comp in 3 weeks time FFS - does anyone remember when we GTE 100k for a £300 comp last year - players thought we were mad, now we are doing to 50% of that buy-in for 100k just a year on!

5. I think the only 2 day event that we do less that £50 is the Grand Prix, where we charge €10 juice, that will stay the same, we have no plans do do any 2 day events at less that £50, II think we have that market covered with the GP!

6. All these rumours about DTD running at a massive loss are bollocks, yes, the profit and loss is not looking rosy so far this year, but with all of the events we have booked in we will cover our costs by the end of 2012 and that includes the CPP, which by the way we couldn't run a crazy event like that if we didn't have the goodwill and loyalty of the poker community, so those of you that worry about us taking less rake and reg fees, thanks, but we are okay to make these tweaks, however if you're feeling flush, stick the extra reg fee in the charity box by the cash desk!

7. We have made changes with cash games aswell, they have been mentioned on this thread, the 50p 1 game and 1-2 are both down by 25% in terms of rake, you can't rake a low limit game at 5% with a 10 cap, even th Vic use 10% with a 5 cap and their poker room is all about attracting players into the whole venue, so they can afford to run at a loss, we need to run at breakeven or better after deduction of promos

8. DTD, dare I say it, is more of a club culture than a gaming venue, we have members and we know eachother, and the club can afford to do the odds little tweak for its loyal members, so happy days. We have experienced a min of 35% growth year on year in terms of footfall for last 5 years trading, I feel this 2 way relationship has worked well so far, sometimes we do things and people think WTF, like the no deals thing, look at our numbers since then, not saying we have got bigger fields due to no deals, but now only 1 out of 4 comps at DTD go to chip count and so many people have said to me, wow, I won a comp, damn that feels good! Of course, why the hell should the venue not want deals, spreading the money around is better for the venue and comp finishes earlier, but players are happier now, has so much positive feedback from this decision


Hope this helps, any more questions just stick them on here

Cheers rob

Personally think it's good news. Just wish I could get there more often and play there regularly

I think it's brilliant. No more of those pesky pound coins to worry about.

I think it's important for transparency that people realise the difference between charging 10% rake and taking 10% from the prize pool.

Previous fees were 12% apart from super 50s which were a bit higher.

New fees are 10% of the prize pool which is actually 11.1% when you look at it the same way as before.

It's a reduction but not a huge one.

The main benefit is that it keeps everything nice round numbers when you buy in. That's the thing people will like and I'm pretty sure that's why it's been done.

Personally I preferred it as it was because it made the comps a bit more expensive. I'd rather play a £50 comp than a £45 comp. I'd rather play a £500 than a £450 etc. but it certainly won't stop me playing.

Keep up the good work.

Matt,

How many Chips do I need to win to qualify for the Chip Leader comp?

Cheers Rob

Read this thread 3 times and I cannot possibly see why anyone would think this was a negative.

If DTD ran rebuy tournaments of course there would be negs. But as far as I know they don't, so it's 100% positive news.

Quick question, will any future Monte Carlo tournaments be subject to the "10% rake of total prizepool"?

If so, this would make it £900 + £100 (11.1% rake), a rake increase of 59% compared to the previous £1000 + £70 buyin (7% rake).

Think they did just start a £40 1r but that was £6 rake before so not a huge difference before and after, assuming some % of people don't take the rebuy.

The 2 main things people are missing is that:

1. For losing players, yeah it might not make much difference to whether they decide to play a tournament whether it's £50+8 or £50 flat, but it will leave an extra £8 in their pocket. Over time that will add up and, assuming they spend all of their spare cash on poker (which they probably do), they'll probably play more comps with it, or at least spend it in the club.

2. For winning players over a certain ROI, the reduced volume more than wipes out the rake saving. Say for example I am a +50% ROI player, in the £560 deepstack that would mean I average a return of £840 for £280 profit per tournament. ROI is always worked out including reg fees so that makes our real ROI on the prize pool proportion of the buyin 840/500 = +68%. Changing that to £450+50, assuming the field stays the same so our ROI on the prize pool does not change, that means we cash for £450*1.68 = £756 on average, subtracting the buyin gives us a reduced profit of £256 per tournament.

So, the net effect is to take a small bite out of winning players' profits and return it to losing+breakeven players who will most likely spend it on future tournaments, increasing churn and the club's turnover and eventually the bottom line. As usual, the conclusion is that Rob is no mug, this will be good for the games, good for the punters, but also good for DTD. Everyone's a winner, except me and Keith.

Surely the simple solution to this is for you to stake losing players......

Thats it, set up the tap-in.

Haha, if everyone except you and Keith are winners with these changes then I wont be losing ANY sleep. I don't quite get this ROI and EV stuff thou, if you and Keith are worried about ROI or + EV, why do you play cash games with me? PS. can you tell Kieth that I'm doing another refit later this year to build a new VIP Room above the bar, Kieth is only in the budget to pay for 50% of the re-fit costs, it was unfair to expect him pay for the whole of last years VIP room re-fit BUT he kept on "insisting" by never folding to my premium holdings. I have only put you in for a 5% contribution, as I know you have a stop loss system and the discipline to stick to it. We need to get some games going again, after the UKIPT, just too busy to play at moment, Cheers mate

 ;izimbra;

+1

Hang on a minute I know this one......

I've seen it somewhere. I may have been drunk when I read it though.

 :hello:

sounds fine to me

1 question, will the FPP buy in amounts change to reflect this ?

I'm confused, are these changes going ahead? All the comps as far as I can see are the same x+x juice still?

From Mon 16th April, after the UKIPT