blonde poker forum

I'm starting my own website business, which will launch in about 2 months time.

At the moment it's pretty well figured out it terms of the idea and how it's going to work - it's the behind the scenes nuts and bolts I need help with - I'm just a man with a dream - total noob in most practical matters!

I'll give some examples

1) Taxes, getting an accountant. Do I need to notify people that I'm starting a business? Will I need an accountant to run this for me? Do I pay them monthly fees or every year to do the books for me? How does this work?!?!

2) Legal stuff - do you need a license to handle customer finances, details etc? Also T&C, how would I go about writing T&Cs to cover myself legally? Employ a lawyer I assume, how would I find a reasonable one, presumably even the most basic lawyers could do this so it wouldn't be too pricey?

3) The name of my business is practically the same as another website - although this website's business is nothing to do with my website, except for being to do with poker. Is this a problem? Am I allowed to do this if it's really similar? Can they sue?!

That's just a few of the things worrying me at the moment!

Basically, I need a BUSINESS ADVISOR. Someone who knows all this stuff and can help me out. OR links/references to some good literature/websites on starting your own business, that has practical solutions rather than wishy washy advice.

Thanks very much, blonde is full of very smart and helpful people who I hope can help which is why I've posted this here.

Lots of stuff here buddy:

Few bullets for you:

1. You need to decide what "type" or "vehicle" your business will be  - sole trader, limited company, LLC partnership.  This has significant tax implications (and other things) for you

2. A good accountant will be able to advise on the most appropriate method.

3. Once decided you need to register with Inland Revenue

4. If income is greater than circa 75k you will need to be VAT registered

5. PROTECT YOUR IDEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REPEAT PROTECT YOUR IDEA

These are a few simple starting points. There will be lots of good advice that an Accountant can give you, so def start there.

Lots of subsequent decisions will depend upon the routes you take.

please be calling your business Googol or Amazan or Blandpoker

if you know it is going to be a limited company - buy a book called "how to set up your own limited company" - it takes about 2 hours to read and will tell you most of the key points

My advice is don't transfer very hefty sums of money to people until you've compiled a fully costed business plan and answered questions like 'can I be sued?'

BusinessLink is useful and the bank will give you a small business advisor with new account.

1. You need to register for VAT, almost certainly, if you are selling good or services - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/register/when-to-register.htm#1

This is pretty easy to work out on a quarterly basis and unless you are amaze busy, or doing a zillion transactions out of the gate then you probably would not need an accountant to do this.

If you decide you want to be a company rather than any other form of business then you will need to register with companies house and would probably need an accountant once a year to prepare and file an audited set of abbreviated accounts (basically just a balance sheet). You would also need an accountant initially in all likelihood to draft articles of association for the business and register the directors of the company etc.

You can buy very basic software where you can produce your own sets of accounts and pay an accountant to audit them once a year. Real basic things like Quickbooks will work for most small start ups.

2. Depends what you want to protect yourself against. If you want to limit your liability, become a limited company for sure. Beyond that, I wouldn't employ a lawyer - massive cost for little worthwhile input at this stage - most Ts and Cs are pretty standard 'boilerplate' terms - you can find these readily online. A lawyer producing some clever terms for you won't protect you very much anyway eg, if you sell shoddy, unfit goods or services.

You don't need special licenses to handle finance if you mean this at the most basic level in terms of invoicing them for goods or services and receiving payment. You would need to say more about the nature of transactions you intend to conduct for this to get answered properly.

3. If the other company can make a reasonable case that you are making an attempt at 'passing off' your company as theirs then they would be able to sue and could potentially stop you trading under the name you've chosen.  I'd suggest you think very carefully about this. If the other company is likely to be irritated by your name, has deep pockets and can demonstrate that you are in any way competitive with them then you could cause yourself quite a lot of pain.

It is worth getting advice but unless you are embarking on something very large, very complicated I'd be really cautious about spending big money on accountants, lawyers etc. There are lots of small business networks where dull business owners meet and discuss dull business things - getting involved in one of these with the range of varying experience available for free could be advantageous.

Also, all this stuff is much less complicated than it first appears.

1) You need to understand VAT and your personal and company tax liability which I think is learnable online in a few days
2) You need to be able to make a legal offer, take an order, raise an invoice, receive payment
3) You need to record your transactions

One other thing, it might be easier now but one area we found difficult ten years ago was getting merchant accounts set up to take online payments. It really was quite painful. It surely must be easier today but if you are intending to take payments on line then I'd start looking at this now (assuming your web developer isn't handling it)

Hope this helps in some small way and good luck of course

i think business link is being phased out, but i agree they will be very helpful. As for your bank, i wouldnt rely on their advice too heavily (IMO)

There is nothing wrong with learning as you go, most people do, but im pretty surprised you havent nailed some of this before spending $$$$

If you think your idea is unique, i would be focusing on getting it protected (this can take time, lots of it). It might take you 3 months to get off the ground, but it could take a competitor with the right resource and market position about a week!

No problem being a business noob, but dont be the fish!

Hey man, i only have a very theoretical knowledge of business but i did pretty well in A level business, so I'll have a crack at finding some material to read/answer any qns you have. Business Link is a government run website with a shitload of information, pretty much perfect for someone like you. Definitely take a look at:

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?r.s=tl&topicId=1073858796

Are you looking at taking on any investment?

Alright Bert, I run my own Ltd company. Looks like you have lots of plentyful help here but if I can help in any way then I'm happy to do so. :)

I pay an accountant a monthly fee to ensure my books are in order, but if you don't feel your going to have the sales volume to warrant it at first then I'll get you through the basics, it's just numbers at the end of the day. ta

As you're going to be taking payments online, you'll need to investigate the costs involved with PayPal, setting up a merchant account and taking credit card payments, etc.

Look into the costs of taking the payments, fraud protection, securely holding and protecting people's details, and the costs of things like charge backs.

A good web guy will be able to help you through all this.

I'd guess that you'd be setting up a bank account that deals with the online transactions and acts similarly to the caged money held by online poker sites? Probably where a good accountant comes into play.

Whether you should or need to VAT register depends on a number of factors (really depends on nature of business, who your customers are and where they are based just for starters). You don't have to register until you have made taxable supplies of £77,000 but bear in mind you can't recover input VAT until you are VAT registered, therefore some businesses register voluntarily if they have significant up-front costs on which they would like to recover VAT.

If your customers are individuals (non business) any delay to registering for VAT will effectively save you 20% which is likely to be profit to you, where all your customers are VAT registered businesses then charging them VAT shouldn't be an issue.

There's quite a lot I could put but I would be making a lot of assumptions. As people have rightly said, there are a number of vehicles for running a business, some of which are taxed differently and have pros and cons, depending on what you are doing. If you are putting up your own money then you will probably not use a company but that depends on the scale/risk and likely profitability of that business. I can't givea bland right answer without knowing something about your business and objectives but some people set up limited companies without even knowing why they have done so.

On points 2&3, they are outside my expertise but I guess they are fundamental to your business being successful so I probably wouldn't take these points lightly.

Sorry if this is a ramble, don't have time to answer properly as I should be at work right now

gatters might just be on the right lines there, even though he missed completely.

Employ a schmoozer to look after your female clientèle.

Preferably a bloke with a tache.  

Are you relaunching Full Tilt?

Is it www.pokeherstar.com?

A*

Also the bit about its name being very similar. Would really try and steer away from that as much as possible. Marketing wise it would be a nightmare. I would steer towards a totally unique title, doesn't need to be related whatsoever, afterall, who ever bought birthday cards online from birthdaycardsonline.com?

Hey Alex

Accounts -
How big do you expect this to be?
Do you have a rough understanding of accounting principles?

Guessing the answer to those two questions I would have thought having a book keeper type person come in and check what you are recording, file any PAYE and VAT returns etc would be the most economical. This way you can sit with them and learn a lot. Its really quite simple and I would have thought you could do this yourself after 12 months.

Whether you need a yearly account depends on if you decide to be a limited company or not, if you are a sole trader filling in a tax return I can put you in touch with someone who will reduce your tax fill in your tax return in exchange for a cheeky drink. If you become a limited company you need to have a yearly accountant check your accounts and sign them off. If your huge you need to have an audit but I would have thought you wont need to worry about that yet.

Legal -
I think most of the paperwork etc you could modify things you find online, however I think it would be well worth sitting down with someone for a couple of hours to run over any questions you have. The larger firms in town are a little more expensive but a lot more reliable.

Other website -
I would be massively concerned about this. If they get wind of your site and don't like it they have various routes to take. Many of which to not have to be based on a justified claim.
You would not be able to afford to fight this and would therefore be signing papers to close your site and settle for a small figure within a month of any action starting.
To give you a rough idea taking a case to the patent intellectual property courts costs circa £60k minimum, if you lose you will then have to pay a percentage of their costs and damages.
You need to be very careful not to step on anyone toes.

Apart from that the whole thing is pretty simple. There are various helplines that will answer your questions and as you get going you will pick things up very quickly.

Happy to help with any specific accounting, banking, website, legal, employment law questions

Definitely worth contacting Business Link. They may have startup grants available. I started my business 12 years ago and got a bag off them with virtually no effort. Also got some useful, free, advice.

Good luck with whatever it is, if your website man is a fail, one of my poker mates is a specialist in online payment systems.


PS I'd recommend getting an accountant sooner rather than later. Talk to a few and find one that 'gets you' . They will steer you through the choice of Ltd Co or sole trader and a really good one will have links to grants and to bankers. Initial cost of an accountant will be small, savings on tax may be large.

Lol. Please sell me some shares in this.

Is it common knowledge what your business idea is? My main concern about it was the legality side and breaking money laundering laws. I've been doing self assessments as a sole trader for 20 years and have always done my own accounts (my degree is in business studies and finance) only ever needing an accountant once in that time following an investigation. My solicitor however gets a visit from me a couple of times a year and always gets a contribution to his staff Xmas party.

You clean his windows?

Lol no the guys who rent my business stick to domestic stuff. He is a proper character here in scunny and reminds me if that Rumpole of the Bailey character

Business link is one realllly good site..

What do you need to do to get a taller one?

Key to a startup imo is to work with an accountant that understands your area of business.

I've had the same accountant for 25 years, they understand the way I work, prompt me when things need to be done. Not only save me money, but reduce the stress in dealing with the Inland Revenue.

Be prepared to put in long long hours. Running your own business is addictive & stressful, but rewarding.

Good luck Alex.

As a side note to this, I was thinking the other day about my own business, and I thought "every business should have a Dan Morgan". Sometimes you get caught up in what you are doing (for a number of reasons), and what is required is cold, brutal logic to be applied to all situations. Hence, every business needs a Dan Morgan!

Dan  - when you set up this consultancy I want 10% - yvw

Defo get a business banking acc asap. They give some advice but give free banking for the first year or two, abs crucial for keeping the first year costs down

Vague cliffs?

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7162/6463544831_107ec4d055_z.jpg)

lol wp :D

Both Barclays and Nat West turned me away for a business account for gambling related business :(
Most affiliate payments are done through Moneybookers anyway, so I can live without.

Is it still secret what the actuall business is, or did I miss a post?

I think it'll remain a secret until the site's up and running. There'll be a huge benefit from being the 'first-mover', and I'm sure Alex doesn't want to risk someone gazumping him with a similar site before he has the chance to establish himself.

Sick I have a Degree brag...  ;D

Okay seems everyone has given you Fundamental advice regarding business logistics and variables...

Here's a Few words of wisdom my Old man gave me before he threw me out the house in 95, it was told to me in Punjabi so I will do my best to translate into English for you...

A good idea will open up doors but Ambition will keep them open.
Hard work will get you so far but it's your reputation that will make you
The difference between success and failure, a successful man learns from failure and a failure learns from success.. (Not sure if this makes much sense to you in English)
Matters not what they think of you, what matters is what you think of them..

Sounds better in Punjabi, but hey, I had a go...

Like I said, areas that I can help are more 2nd round + funding so anything after that let me know, I'll be happy to help...

In any case good luck and I wish you all the best..

PM sent Alex - let me know if any of it is relevant.

this and this

good luck!

I get my accountant to do sales and purchases monthly ,any queries can be dealt with there n then ,try remembering a transaction from a year ago ,isn't easy ,I pay them monthly ,to avoid a big bill , then there's just another fee for putting it all together and presenting it to the inland revenue at year end
Be honest with people and up front ,if you make a mistake put your hands up and learn from it
You will have tax and maybe vat to pay , contrary to what lots of people will tell you ,so put it aside in another account
Good luck with your venture

In order to protect an idea you will need to apply for a patent which is both time consuming and complicated. If the business is set to launch in a couple of months I would assume there are no such safeguards relating to the product. Facebook has 42 patents. And even so they are constantly battling with other sites like Yahoo over copyright issues. I would dismiss notions that because you launch a business first you will get time to establish yourself and thus be the front runner/market leader in the field. If the idea is very good much bigger fish will just launch a similar website and throw enough capital at it to blow any small business away. So if you weren't planning to legally protect your idea/product it was prob worthwhile debating it here before investing a lot of money into it. There is some merit in being the first to launch but don't expect it to afford any great protection from competitors.

 ^^ This.
Without protecting your idea just being first to launch means nothing. Can be easily copied by people with plenty of cash looking to exploit any new opportunities.

And vice-versa, you will also have to ensure your idea isn't already patented...

Thanks very much everyone for the replies.

Very much appreciated. Will try and take as much of it on board as I can.

Watch this space, hopefully everyone will be able to gain some benefit from my site when it launches.

In this case being the first-mover will be an important factor, especially with an idea that can't really be patented (I'm not a patent lawyer obviously, but pretty sure the idea for the website would not be suitable for patenting).

An example would be THM and their live tournament player database. Not sure the idea could be protected in law, but as it's the established first-mover in this they have a distinct advantage over others attempting to do something similar.

Do you think the THM live player database is a lucrative big money business that generates lots of revenue for the owners? Wonder how much revenue Blonde generates specifically from Blondepedia? If an idea isn't very lucrative protection issues are obv irrelevant.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think THM nor Blonde are making that much money from the player database and Blondepedia respecitively, so it probably isn't worth forking out money to lawyers/patent agents to preserve their scope for monetization against competition from other sites.

i think alex let the cat out of the bag in a another thread

not gonna say what it is but i am pretty sure i know what it is

OK, I'll give you a big money example.

Ebay. There's nothing stopping another site starting up and allowing sellers to sell stuff to buyers via an auction system. Well, nothing in legal terms. Interestingly, in Japan Yahoo already had established itself as the auction site there and ebay wasn't able to move in and become the number one.

Sometimes of course it is possible for someone to come in and better the competition, for example Amazon. There were other bookstores online, but Amazon managed to usurp them (it did take a lot of money and a number of years of operating at a loss in order to establish itself).

Another example is in search. Despite having patents and being the established leader, Yahoo has gone from being the number one operator in search, to where it is now. It bought Overture, which was the first successful mass PPC online advertising system. Then Google came along, with a better search (more relevant results for users) and grew its market share at the expense of others and also 'stole' the Overture model to create Adwords, and the rest is history.

So yes, there's nothing to say that the first-mover will stay indefinitely as the site to go to for a particular service, but my comparison to THM position is probably very valid with regards to Alex's idea. Blondepedia was mentioned, and that actually reinforces my point. It might not have been executed with enough backing or drive, but it had to compete with an established player in that niche competing in a distinct and limited market. Maybe with enough time, effort and of course money it could have been developed to be a serious contender to THM's player database. THM definitely had the edge in being there first.

I don't know THM's traffic stats, but it wouldn't surprise me to find that the player database is the main driver for traffic to the site, and this then translates to a major chunk of their revenue driven by display advertising.

E-bay started in 1995 so a market comparison with the pitfalls of starting an on-line business in 2012 wont be greatly accurate.

Of course there isn't anything stopping another on-line auction site springing up and there are plenty of them. However, e-bay only became the market leader because it got multi-million dollar venture capitalist investment early doors, not because it had a unique idea. And of course it retains it's place in the market by spending hundreds of millions on advertising, hence legal protection isn't necessary. That was the point I was making, if your idea isn't legally protected another company can throw lots of capital at the idea and instantly obliterate the competition. As far as I know e-bay were not the first auction site, the idea was out there in the 1980's, it's just e-bay were the first to throw millions into it. Thus if you start an online business in 2012 and your idea isn't legally protected and you don't have a business plan which includes potential huge commercial investment within years 1-2 then the chances of a good idea retaining it's integrity is remote.

Also the reason Blonde don't invest the time, effort, and money into Blondepedia is because it isn't worth it. If THM made significant monies from having a database on their site I guarantee Blonde do likewise.

There isn't millions to be made from Alex's idea, so the idea that someone would throw millions at it to obliterate Alex's position in the market isn't relevant. Alex has a niche offering, which is why the comparison to THM's player database is relevant.

Also, THM gets significantly more unique daily visitors than blondepoker, and like I said I'm sure this is due largely to the player database.

Whats the idea?

Alex will be keeping that quiet until the site's launched I'd imagine.

Oh ok bud, well you obv know what the idea is so are in a much better spot to offer advice. Not sure why you introduced the e-bay example if it isn't relevant but sure thing, if the offering is niche and not going to make big bucks obv no need to protect it as nobody will be interested in copying it. 

 :hello:  I know someone who accounts for a high percentage of the hits on the hendonmob. I had to do 1650 searches for the ukipt alone