blonde poker forum

Playing in a €5/10 game, taking a bit of a shot (wanted to play €2/5, but the list was tilt long). Decided to have a couple of 50bb bullets.

Lost the first bullet in orbit one with Ad 9d on 8c 8d 7d when a guy clicks back the flop, I jam and obviously we get there, but he's flopped a boat with 8h 7s.

On to the second bullet and orbit two.

Raise fold Ac 8c, then get Aspades Ts a couple of hands later (playing €450 everyone at table covers)

MP opens to €25 (he has opened to €35 in his two other previous opens)
I flat next to act
BB peels (seems like a fish from observations of hands so far, peeling fairly wide)

FLOP (€80)
Tc 6d 3c

BB donks €30, OR raises to €85

At this point I feel the BB is never ahead of me, he can have 45, T8 sort of hands, possibly 6x and gutshots. I don't think OR ever has complete air, but he has a lot of FDs, worst Tx hands in his range, some over pairs, but I didnt feel he was super-strong, so discounted sets just through timing tells, body language etc. Also i'm 50bb deep and i've flopped top top in Spain.

I call, BB calls

TURN (€335)
4s

BB checks, OR bets €185

This is a fairly large bet (given my remaining stack of €340, which he is definately aware of having counted it before betting). Clearly not bet-folding, his range is still as previously stated, but he seems very uncomfortable when I tank for a bit and observe him. His hands were over his mouth and he couldnt keep still. I'm never exactly sure what these things mean, but to me he didnt seem to be loving life as I contemplated a call.

I jam for €340, BB folds, OR snaps

Do we think I should just fold flop?
Do we ever fold turn after calling €85 OTF?
Which cards do we fold on if action is the same? (clubs have to be terrible, 7's arent great, nor are J's or Q's)
Do we ever 3b the flop? (seems pretty tez)
How much do live tells matter in these spots (esp given my lack of genuine body language knowledge)?
Or do we just get it in because we have top top in what we assume will be a pretty spewy game with 50bbs?

No idea how the game was playing but I'd have considered 3betting preflop in a lot of scenarios.

Flatting and getting it in now seems very reasonable as well, maybe preferable to 3b jamming the flop, I think it's close.

I read every word you ever write Dave but that red gives me a headache

Don't fall into the "we are in Spain and they are all crap" trap. Y

me too, but if you click n drag to highlight it all, it becomes very readable in bluer on white background :-)

given board texture/bad visibility + 3way, calling flop is worst option i think.
given stack sizes, prolly goes jam flop > fold >>call.

I have no experience in live tells.
As played jamming turn is best imo (reminds me of this spot here http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=57105.0)

Flatting flop allows BB fish to flat with his weak range and leaves us roughly a pot-sized bet, which we are happy enough to get in on any non-club turn. Also giving OR some reverse-implied odds if he has AK or AQ. OR can also still barrel all of his draws OTT.

Agree there are a few other spew turns, but stacks are awkward to just jam the turn, I think there are arguments for folding, calling, raising or jamming the flop... seems like a spot where none are really bad and none are that great.

all the more reason to jam the flop no?

This

 its quite a ridic thing to think. What do you think their view of you is after the hand you got it in drawing dead and this hand?

not sure this is all that fair, it is defo true that in general spanish players are looser than other nations (sepshly england) so I think assuming the games are going to play quite "spazzy" isn't a bad assumption. What IS bad ofc is the "well they are all "spantards" and shit so i'll win" which, as we know is not only really arrogant but pretty inneficient as a strategy.

The hand he gets it in drawing dead is, by anyone's standards french/russain/bulgarian completely stnd and pretty unlucky on Tom's behalf, and there isn't anything particularly spazzy about this hand either?

also tbf to Tom, the only thing he said that can be interpreted as slightly digging at the spanish is this.

 

Which is pretty tongue in cheek.

You have missed an important part of the post imo tho Stu. Wanted to play 2/5 but took a shot short stacked at 5/10 instead which intimates that isn't the level that he wanted/was comfy playing at with the funds available, hence the short buy in, why not play the smaller game?

Did the fact the mindset 'These Spanish are (insert whatever mildly jingoistic/xenophobic/stereotypical) opinion of their ability affect the game selection in a kind of, these are rubbish, lets take a shot at the *****?

If it did then it is probably a bad thing.

As for I've tptk in Spain, if that's the thought process then its pretty clear the above has happened.

If you have just barrelled a nut flush draw on a paired board( I know, I'm a  nit ;)), did you give him any credit for a hand the way he had played it because you had already decided these were prob going to be rubbish?

After that does call pre, call flop look strong or weak?

 If you have already dubbed the BB a fish after what is very few hands, how do you think they have tagged you?

The only way you can think its a 'spewy game' after so few hands is to decide that before any evidence, how does that help you play?

I took a shot because these are the types of games you can make big spin-ups in. A lot of bad peels from shallow stacks with marginal hands. I entered the table between then sb and button and chose not to post to observe for an orbit. I'd played a couple of sessions previous to this and this very loose peely brand of play was seen from 50-75% of the player pool.

In the Ad 9d hand I've c-bet into 2 opps and had it clicked back to 110, clearly jamming playing 50bb ainec, playing the hand any other way is terrible..

I'm not making massive generalisations about Spanish poker players itt, but out here peoples ranges pre and post are just a decent chunk wider (from my brief experiences).


As explained its pretty irrelevant if I give him credit for a hand, its more a case of if I don't think villain is competent I could consider folding, but anyone decent has semi-bluffs in their range.

I don't think I've been tagged in any way, I've raise-folded once and got stacked for 50bbs in a standard spot.

I've got 2 days previous and 3 orbits of evidence...... not sure your post is really constructive tbh. It's and interesting sport and you are just berating me for noting that your average Spanish player appears to be very peel-happy pre and a bit spewy post.

Also I meant stack-sizes were a bit awkward to jam flop, jamming 425 over 85.... But its probs correct on reflection.

I know we don't have very much experience in the live pokeys, but at least twice you've blown my mind with things you've either done or picked up on, and I'm 85% sure these were both in the same night.

I think this probably answers the qn, I'd just put it in.

Pretty sure he wanted to play 2/5 but the waiting list was so long he thought "fuck it lets play 5/10" I think his internal degeneracy was the culprit over his disrespect from Spanish poker ability.


Come on, he's got 40big blinds and he's flopped the NUT FLUSH draw + some fold equity vs a wide range of hands, he's getting that in vs Ivey or Bill Ruffin and you know this ;)

Listen I'm 100% behind the "don't disrespect your opponents" line, in fact, if anyone has ever read posts on here (Belton's diary specifically) or my blogs you'll know I champion it, and I pretty much never use the word "fish".

But you're 100% jumping on Tom here when he really hasn't demonstrated any of the stuff, if he had, I would be instantly +1'ing your criticism,

I'm not really jumping on anyone, it was simply an addition to your summary which imo missed out what could have been factors to the way the hand and thought process' could be tarnished by the 'im in Spain with tptk, these are spewwy mentality. When in the short amount of hands played at this table the hero himself could look to be the very same.

How does flat pre, flat flop look to you from someone playing a short buy in, followed by push that will obv get called?

I hope the guy called with 10 king and we win the pot but if the pot was lost and you stood up and left, how do you think the Spanish players are going to pigeon hole your stay at the table. They would also be wrong to put you in a stereotypical bracket too given such a small example.

Just a thought really.

thing is though, anyone who has ever played in spain will know that, in general the games do play VERY loose (nothing derogatory on the standard of the players) much much looser than UK games on the whole, so if Tom is privy to this knowledge then surely assuming the games will play quite "spewy" is a GOOD assumption no? Better than making no assumption when you have some reliable information, it would be better in this spot to assume the game will be very loose until proven otherwise than assume it's "solid" till proven loose?

I have to admit I'd share the same thoughts on the TPTK thing, not that "iv got top-top and everyone is shit" but I know from my experience playing in spanish games there is loads more action so people on the whole are more likely to commit more money with weaker TOP-PAIR hands than they are in the UK.

Lots of stuff is made of poker assumptions like "he is old so he's a nit" "he is spanish so he's spewy" "he is young so he's going to be 3betting light" but it really is worth noting that often these assumptions come from quite reliable stereo-types so as long as you're not arrogant about them i.e "This old guy must be terrible" etc and constantly trying to adjust them, as a starting point to go from they are often quite reliable.


One thing though, you have introduced me to the word  "jingoistic" which I think is a fantastic word!

Agree with Dave, this whole issue is continually brought up on blonde and it's really annoying. People basically calling people like Tom racist for making what are actually intelligent and valid assumptions.

In fact, not many these assumptions is plain bad and will harm your chances of making the right plays.

lol, thats a bit strong fella, racist is a pretty nasty word, which nobody has actually used.

You haven't used it but it's implied. You said he had was making jingoistic/ xenophobic/ stereotypical observations. Racist a bit strong, fair enough, but those things are offensive and as I said, completely valid and useful assumptions to be using.

Once again, I have not used racist nor implied it. The point is it is daft to base ALL your assumptions on the fact people are Spanish, wear a jumper, wear huge expensive earphones etc. This thread just happened to contain an example where the assumptions are based by the country you are playing in.

If the example had said, they guy was old with a jumper and a couldn't do chip tricks then I would have made similar points. It just happened to be about Spanish players this time.

Having assumptions before you start playing cannot be better than actual seeing how the game is playing once you are in it, no matter what the stereotype is, not all the stereotypes are about race are they. If the table had been described as 'full of old gimmers that looked like rocks' and I had questioned making assumptions like that would you have  complained I was calling the OP ageist?

No, but Tom hasn't presented us with any further information, so I'd assume that the only thing he had to go on was that this guy was Spanish.

Of course, if the guy plays a hand of note, then we adjust our assumptions accordingly.

Like Dave says, it's smart to go on stereotypes, but it's dumb to not adjust them when given further insight.

Very much this.

Surely if we have no information, it's a good start to work from a stereotype unless we have reason to deviate from it.  You're telling me that you wouldn't see a guy over 60 and not automatically assume he's tighter than a 20 year old wearing a hoody?
Stereotypes are based on some element of truth, as long as we can appropriately adjust on the basis of new information, this has to be better than making no assumptions at all.

I agree with the summary on both those posts but if the OP is using' I have tptk in Spain' then it sure reads like any info that could have bean gleaned on the previous 2 nights/previous hands is still clouded by this. Each individual spot on the table will have had various nuances to it, as with most tables. If you go in thinking they will all be the same because (?) then you are less likely to compute the extra info you glean from playing the table in the heat of battle.

I spend a lot of time making assumptions pre event in a lot of markets, I am at my best when I am bang in the middle of the event tho as more and more info becomes available. If I stick too rigidly to my pre event assumptions then I will miss too much good info that helps me.

Seems like you are making an assumption that because I have noted that the fact that I am in Spain will affect the general tendencies of the player pool, that have somehow over-stereotyped or am unable to alter my perceptions based upon my experiences in the games here. This seems a lot more malicious than just saying 'we're in Spain, the games are probably going to be a bit spewy and thus the value of premium hands/ hands like tptk will go up, which is a legitimate and valid point.

As for other stereotypes, such as the 'old man' stereotype, these are also perfectly legitimate and provide a generally surprisingly accurate starting point (else where would these stereotypes be formed). To ignore these is ridiculous.

Ok, After having 'non constructive' and 'malicious' directed my way I will leave you to it.

Think we all agree, stereotypes are initially useful, but we need to be able to change assumptions on the basis of new information.  Obviously, if these assumptions are initially wrong, we may not make the most optimal decisions, and the speed at which we adjust will determine the profitability of future decisions.

bobby1, don't get offended, we are nice people on blonde (honest!) you've made valid points, but Tom is clearly bright enough to not just think because he's in Spain, he's gonna stack off with tptk.  This is an obvious simplification of hand when the op has shown clear thought processes.

So in conclusion, no-one is racist, don't be offended, and ul that aT wasn't the best hand.

Lol at mike with a bowl amount of posts telling founder member bobby that we are nice people on blonde.

I assume everyone is a fish until proved otherwise. Tom does not have a bad bone in his body either but I like a lot of what bobby is saying too

Really hope any of my posts didn't come across as rude defo wasnt meant to be like that, I agree with near on 100% of what you've said I just don't think any of it was actually applicable here.

I get really tilted as well by all the arrogance and ego around "this french idiot" this and "spanish donk" that, but there really was nothing Tom said to support that on this occasion.

haha yeh i realised this after I wrote it, Im somewhat of a dtd reg during uni term time, bloody studies getting in the way of gambling!

god blonde is so boring at times. I think not making observations like spanish = terrible until proven otherwise,  women = nit until proven otherwise and young kid in hoody = possibly aggro until proven otherwise means you are very very very likely not to be a good poker player.

On this trip people have laughed alot at me about things ive mentioned in hand historys, but all the stuff is super relevant and you really need to take a huge consideration into every single tiny factor.

The ironic thing is that all the people who make the ridiculos rejection of stereotypes are all alot older than the guys who do, and they are the one who have played alot more live poker for alot longer meaning they should have experienced it first hand

Just a big plus one

also i guarantee skandis NEVER have it

these are assumptions not observations. I agree making very broad assumptions can't do much harm but the extent to which u seem to pidgeon-hole individuals seems extreme. Over the last 18 months ppl have started to play on this, Herbert and others wear disgusting hoodies to get action whilst online players like Jenkins turn up to live events in a shirt+suit. I think the most information you can pick up from ppl is wot they say.

John black asked me the very same thing tonight. I told him it disguises the fact that I am a 43 year old nit very well. :)
Even started getting my hair straightened to look younger. I always get paid but the flip side is bluffs don't get through too often.