blonde poker forum

The DTD Chipleader tournament was a great event.

Off course the question remains whether the result  was a legitimate win or one aided by a clear case of cheating.

We all appreciate support from the rail but the incident when one of the railers indicated Greek Jack’s hand to one of the players he was supporting in the hand is nothing less than cheating.

Many people saw this incident and saw that the call only came after clear collusion between the player and the railer.

We can argue that Jack should not have allowed anyone on the rail to see his hand but that does not excuse what occurred after.

The evidence was really clear and I hope for the integrity of the game that DTD investigate and take appropriate action.

I am not sure its cheating? its out of order and shady for sure but it is a players responsibility to protect his hand. I have no idea what went on at this Ft just my opinion.

Would be difficult for anyone who wasn't there to be judge and jury on this one.  I heard they were looking into it at the time, but there was no mention of the findings later.  Have you asked them?

The 'alleged' incident involved the rail signalling to a player at the table. If it is found to be true, that absolutely IS cheating.

tbf, I dnt think he flatted the 3b pre with JJ and a psb left to fold, esp on the driest flop possible...

Malc

I took the liberty of making Simon Trumper aware of the thread

He tells me he has already spoken to Jack, and has told him he is looking into the matter fully and will speak to him again once he has done that

The tricky thing here imo is this, did the guys mates stand where they did because Jack was flashing his cards and they thought they might gain an advantage, or were they just standing there and happened to see his cards on this occasion.

If its the later then the guy that was in the hand cannot really do anything if his mate makes a sign to tell him what he has seen (other than sigh pass on the grounds that he was mid deliberation and his mate had now passed the info on). If its the former then it's a pretty clear example of cheating but if it was that clear cut then surely the TD would have acted then to disqualify the player and remove his mates from the card room.

It seems strange to let the comp finish and then decide if anything untoward took place.

As Caroline reported on the night, The TD was present throughout and spoke to the railers at the time, and presumably made the decision that the tournament carries on as is. This implies there was no clear evidence of wrongdoing, does it not?

Obviously speaking to all parties afterwards is sensible on Simon's part, as Live Club director, too

Yes, if the TD investigated at the time and decided to carry on then it cannot have been cheating, or it was a bad decision made. If Simon finds there is a case of cheating what can be done about it now tho?

OP says it was 'nothing less than cheating' which would indicate there could be some doubt about the decision, Malc certainly isn't someone that would throw those kind of claims about willy nilly tho we have to be careful not to just take sides because Jack is a nice guy with lots of friends and the other guy isn't as well known. As I said above, he cannot be at fault if his mate has acted badly, he has hardly played the hand like he is going to pass on that board too so its not like he made a hero call with 2ndpbk after the sign.

I'm not in the least bit surprised that this happened.  I have seen plenty of final tables where spectators could see players cards and I have never seen a TD warn players about it or throw out "curious" spectators.

Tighty was Simon the TD at the time or one of the other lads?

Mark who made the call ain't ever folding his hand in that position. He is a decent player and I would be pretty confident that it was never his intention to cheat. I personally think his tank call was out of embarrassment and guilt at the actions of his pissed up mates because on the evidence available they were cheating and signalling to Mark.

Franky had warned Jack about people seeing his cards and still jack was not protecting them properly. Jack is an awesome guy and love to see him win but what can be done after the event that could not have been done at the time. Simon (if TD at the time) should have dealt with it there and then because I can't see them getting the £32k from Mark.

Should have read Bobbys post before posting.

b4 i left i did tell jack to b careful when looking at his cards ( before the incident happened ) because i can c his cards while standing behind him.

after that i left  and when i reached home . i saw on the update about the incident.  pretty bad actually because it sound like CHEATING 2 me but
 
in other way it the responsibility of the player to protect their own hand. i did found something suspicious before hand but i was tired and went home.

i hope DTD will look at the camera and sought the matter fair & square.

But what can be done after Franky? I don't even know what could be done at the time. Could the hand have been declared dead?

I am sorry if this is not a popular view on blonde, but imo

"it is a players responsibility to make sure his or her cards are not viewable by any other player and or spectator, IF they are viewable... the hand should be dead, and any and ALL chips put into the pot (including an all in) are forfeit".


End of discussion, there is no cheating question, no signalling question, none.


jb

As the much loved and highly favored Liv Boree said

"when did poker become a gentlemans game? a friendly game? F**k that! its a game of war and in war people die, get over it and enjoy it for what it is!" (might be slightly para-phrased)


Anyone moaning about the 'morality' or 'gamesmanship'.... needs to go find a fair and nice game to play with the something 'safe and fun' that is supposed to teach children to play nicely....  its the same misguided logic that holds true in the 'lets play this hand nicely shall we?'  Errr no, gtfo pls..

The onus is completely on the player to protect his hand. Any disadvantage that a player suffers from not protecting his hand is entirely self inflicted.

I watched the hand and did my best to report it impartially.

I'm paid to do updates for DTD and so that's what I do. Obviously I do plenty of rubdowns etc but it's light hearted and never meant maliciously.

In this instance, the person who signalled is someone who is currently trying to make me bankrupt after we went to court and the judge found in his favour. It isn't a secret. I won't bother going into the history on here as it's a pure derail, but I'm sure it becomes a little clearer now why I really felt it important to try and simply report what happened, in my capacity as a Blonde/DTD employee at the time.

Now though, I'm posting on a thread as a member.

I did not want anyone to be able to say I was abusing my position to gloat or take any personal satisfaction from it at the time.

That's why I purposely didn't name the person who signalled.

Prior to the incident, one of the signaller's friends tried to pour beer down me when I was standing at the side of the feature table. I had to keep a smile fixed on my face like nothing was bothering me, when in reality I was mortified. All four of them were very drunk & loud and I found myself in a horrendous position as if anyone else had done this I would have asked to have them removed. I felt at the time that they were attempting to goad me into a reaction, which included walking straight towards me and not attempting to move as if to walk into me (this went on all night) Obviously after the beer incident I tried to distance myself even more but I felt a little intimidated, as the signaller had kicked off on me once before, in a Blackpool pub during the GUKPT. Truthfully I felt like going home. Yeah yeah I know I'm big and loud and scary but it was 4am and I've got four huge drunk blokes trying to have a go while I'm working. Not a situation any woman would enjoy, and probably not most blokes.

Our case was settled in court - against me - yet I then have to put up with a grown man, a succesfull businessman, acting like an overweight school bully. Personally, I don't think that's right. I didn't go to Simon or Rob for one simple reason. I was embarrassed. Embarrassed about once again having to haul my private life into public, and yes, there was also a large part of me was worried they may decide to not use me for updates any more. I love that job, and love updating at DTD, plus - I need the money. Simple as that.

I did vent my anger and upset on Facebook, but later deleted it as didn't want any of my 1900 poker playing "friends" to link the thread with me naming this man on FB, in case it reflected badly on me in a professional capacity.


So.. to the incident. I was seated at the media table and noticed the signaller waving to two of his mates who were at the bar. I thought it was odd as he was urgently beckoning them, as they hadn't noticed, but he never called them or made a sound. I wondered why he didn't just call them, and went to see what was happening. At this stage the signaller was standing directly behind Greek Jack.

As I got there Jack went all in for 4 million chips. This was after Mark james had raised to 450K (I think) then Jack made it 1.1 or 1.2 M to go. The flop was something like 223. Mark James was sitting forward, sighing etc but not actually speaking. I saw the TD (Ryan) turn to the signaller and tell him not to signal to players during a hand, and of course I was instantly alert, but mainly because of who it was. The signaller then repeated the supposed signal loads of times to show the TD he wasn't actually signalling and was arguing with him. Mark then sat back in his chair, and commented to Jack about putting him on AK, dwelled a little longer and made the call for 4/5ths of his chip stack.

That's what happened, all simple facts.

But here's my opinion.


Whether they cheated or not - only they know that and they have to live with it if so - IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF ALL PLAYERS TO PROTECT THEIR CARDS AT ALL TIMES. And I genuinely believe that, despite the bullying and the history. I can't pretend otherwise simply because I think the guy is a nasty twat.

Greek Jack was spitting mad and I really felt for him because I think he's a pretty decent guy, but I agree with DTD's decision. If Jack felt something untoward had gone on he needed to stop the comp there and then to get it resolved. 24 hours later is too late - what can DTD do? They can't strip him of his win!

Do I think the signaller cheated? Yes, I do.

Do I think the player took advantage of his friend attempting to help him? I don't know. He may not have seen the signal, or he may have been calling anyway. I do agree with general opinion that if Jack had Aces or Kings he isn't going all in for 4 million into a pot less than 3 million first to act, so I think a lot of you would have made that call, knowing your Jacks were good. If that is the case, he made a great call and doesn't deserve to be linked to his boss's stupidity.

It's a shame the situation arose. But if Jack had protected his hand, this whole situation wouldn't have happened.

Best advice I can give to anyone, protect your cards.

Excellent post. I hope dtd agree that was a very professional and impartial view and continue to keep you on.

Bottom line its the players fault, end of.

Wow.

1900 friends? Really?

Thank you. Not an easy post to write so I appreciate that.

blimey mate that sounds like a horrid spot, I think you reported it bang on given the situation.

Just checked - 2096.

Although about 34 of them are fake profiles set up by Gary Gilbo, do they count?

The mad thing is, I've met the majority of my FB friends, they're not totally random adds, although the Cougar surname does attract some wierdos. I tend to go for the "ten mutal friends or more" rule before accepting!

Cheers. Even got Jon from DTD to read the post first just in case, really didn't want it to come across as baised.

Great post Caroline, and IMHO, you have handled this whole situation in a very adult and dignifying manner. I can imagine how you must have felt when everyone things you can handle your self, intimidation is not nice, it is cruel, and very spiteful.

I think you are a great updater , with bags of humor and u always make me laugh whenever I read the updates you are doing.

Take care X

[ ] Can confirm sure did meet me before adding me.... I had to explain to my girlfriend, tyvm.

Thank you Dreenie x

That is just nuts, I don't get all these people that have so many 'friends' its just nonsense if you ask me, why do you even want all these people on there being nosey at your life?

I don't, that's why I have my personal facebook account in my real name.

May seem a bit up myself, but i tend to get loads of requests, mainly I suppose because I work in poker so meet loads of players. So I keep the Cougar FB as poker only, and my private life goes on my personal FB. The only poker players on there are people I know well, like and respect, and see as real friends rather than poker buddies. The Cougar FB tends to be updated purely with music if I'm playing poker online, or joke statuses usually nicked from Sikipedia.

Lol! Please explain to your girlfriend I add any Blonde members - you weren't special ;)

Don't lie to yourself in public... its embarrasing!

ISIT!!!!!!

ok ok I'll add you to the personal one now and really drop you in it - ISIT!

Wtf they should all be snap banned from dtd. The signalling is bad but treating you like that is awful.

Really felt for you reading that post and would hate you would be put off from workin I. The future because of intimidation.

What? I thought we were friends :(

Why not ring RASTAFISH to help u Caroline ?
I thought he's ur BF .....

Banned when you talk about a deal but just a word in the ear if you signal to a mate at the table? DTD need to flip reverse that strat imo. Onus being on the player to protect his cards is something another player says. If numerous people in the club are aware a player is exposing cards the house should pick up on it and inform the member. Drunken yobs roaming round and suspiscions of cheating is not a good look, makes it sound like the wild west or something. The club will want to stamp this moody shit out quick smart imo. From a player's point of view I would just tell the fella to mind his hand.

Ffs Caroline. Having spoke to you already it never crossed my mind that the signaller was him. Guess its a waste of time sending my C.V. off now as mates are for life and all that. It seems to be one thing after another.

I feel a "save the mouths house" thread coming on :)

I really hope that DTD will investigate and punished the culprits .
Poker doesn't want to end like this and I really felt it for jack.
Everyone that play poker wants to win, but hopefully not in this way.
This make poker suck!!!

The 'it's the players responsibility to protect their hand' isn't as straightforward in this situation.

It's relatively easy to look at two cards, without letting other players to the side of you see them.
It's much more difficult to achieve that with people standing behind, looking over your shoulder. I'm ultra paranoid if I know that players at the table have friends stood directly behind me, and will adjust how I look at my cards.

Difficult to disagree with this.

Ofcourse the player should have protected his cards, but IF information was being passed it's bang out of order.

Dont DTD usually have barriers up stopping players getting to close to the Final Table?

Barriers were up, as normal, from the update pics.

Knowing the people in question i can imagine, just how uncomfortable the entire situation would have been. I don't know exactly what went on in regards to you or him, but ithink you probably handled it fairly well. I snapped on one of the people there at a tourney up here, when he celebrated my knock out. Whilst not saying there attitude is excusable, a lot has gone on here previous to DTD and combined with the alcohol, it was always going to be a sticky situation.

AFAIK Jack put his cards on his head, and there is 0% chance Mark folds here anyway.

I'm all for integrity; but there was no way that hand was being played any other way, and proving someone relayed 'AK' to the winner is nigh on impossible.

[  ] Waving frantically with your arms above your head is a great way to try and signal your mate conspicuously.

If it was planned it would've been more subtle.  If he decided to do it as a spur of the moment thing as he caught a glimpse of the AK, how would the player know what waving frantically meant, call or fold?

Sounds like the guy was actually excited about the the big pot and wanted his mates to watch by the sound of it.

Nah, if you're excited about a big pot and want to attract the attention of your mates sound would come out of your mouth. You would shout "DAVE...BIG FECKING POT DAVE...DAVIDDDDD". You would deffo be doing this if you were some loud excited drunk. Don't think you would wave arms around like John McCririck in a silent movie, especially if friends wont see in time. Anyway Mouth says TD told the individual not to signal.

Prob not planned but even so people want a clean, safe & fair place to play cards. There is no evidence to blame the player but if railing members of the club are trying to interfere with the game those members should be asked to leave imo.

+1

Hi Guys

Following a complaint from Jack i have looked into this incident.

Having spoken to everyone involved in this i am satisfied there is nothing that proves anything untoward happened, both Mark and David have offered to come and see Jack here and explain there side of things if he wishes, i have informed Jack and the matter is closed.


Cheers

ACES

Booooo. We wanted to see a lynching. Never mind guys all head over to the Feldman thread. After he has been on secret millionaire I hear he maybe getting publicly stoned. Who is with me ;grr;