blonde poker forum

Details are a bit meh, but Junior an CraigBetts basically said I butchered it..

Blinds 1/2K A200
Folded round to me in MP I raise 4600 with  9s 9c folded to button who flats ( not been on table a great length of time but Junior said if he raises he's got it and has just had AA aipf against KK and KK mbn ) Also Big Blind comes along who seems to know what he's doing.

Flop  Aspades 9h Qh
Bb checks I bet 8500 button then makes it 25K by chucking in 5 purples, bb folds action back on me..
I have around 120K
And villain on button is playing roughly 100ish
WWYD?

I'd probs just jam

45k/snap - jam any turn if he flats

Has to be way better than jamming.

Dot let him play perfectly.

Oh my god, what the hell is the world coming to. Just gone out my way to check the Dtd site then come in here. What do I find but you posting in pha.
You are stil in man...... Fuck em (next you will be sitting down to piss)

Wp see you Saturday

Seems unlikely

Yeh let's not get carried away. It's the grand prix. Just shove

I disagree...if for any reason you want to fold because you feel he has AA or QQ then obviously do it (very hard to do unless you have a good read on the guy )  however.....

If you are continuing he obv could be re raising you with AQ  J 10 or any hearts combo so as to get full value and/or make him pay to see the turn and river... jamming is the only option on this draw heavy board

Yer i'd shove Let him commit his stack on a draw (if he's got one).

Make your all in sound super dramatic. Plus one life point for every player that gasps

And ten if anyone falls off their chair!

What have you. 2 read the op? If he has nothing then he isn't goIng tO call a shove.

When we say play perfectly it means call his gOod hands fold his bad hands.  If we give him space he could make bad peels and/or spew.

Jamming just seems like arghhhh I'm scared 2 hearts gotta gOnall in before the 3rd one comes.

To be honest with you in this comp, wouldent be surprised to see him snap with AK

Still cant agree with you mate but happy to listen to your logic...so lets try it this way....

If we put him on AA or QQ we fold obv...right ?...So assumming we dont put him on one of these two the hands the question I ask is

What hand is he raising with ? ...the way I see it hes more or less commited to any shove unless its a stone cold bluff.

op says opponent 3bets qq+ 100% of the time, he calls so im discounting anything that beats us.

he can have all the AQ combos, the Q9s combos, the A9s combos, even if we give him 1 combo of AA (far too generous) we obv want to get it in lol

if he does have a random Ax that calls pre (people like to call Ax especially Axss) then he will evry rarely call our jam, but live players hate folding, so if we make it small he can make a tonne of mistakes, usually it will mena he calls and we give him a chance to hit 2 pair on the turn, or top pair  + flush draw/straight draw or even trips if the top pair pairs.

if he has flush draws or some random gutshot he will always fold to our shove but when we make it smaller he will make mistakes by either calling or by jamming, very very very rarely will he fold.

if he does have a value hand dont worry, he isn't folding to the 3bet.

if you jam its just isolating yourself vs the top of his range and allowing him to play perfect.

again.. playing perfect doesn't mean playing like phil ivey, it means making him call his good hands, fold his bad hands.

shoving would be really really bad imo.

he has 100k? he only put in 25? he can and live player defintiely will fold most of their range in this spot imo.

Rule number one is Dtd players don't fold

sorry but if it was me i putting it all in

im open to be talked around, i've given all my opinions why it is superior to 3bet.

everyone who has said shove has either just said, well id go all in, or guess im all in, or sorry id shove. doesnt help op or the argument

OK reasons I'd shove:

1) If you 3 bet the flop, in a comp like this, you're very unlikely to induce spazz outs. Players play quite straightforward.

2) There's a chance opponent will just flat a 3 bet with an ace where a ton of turn cards kill our action whereas when we shove he can call flop perhaps putting us on a draw with a number of hands.

3) Again if he does have a draw, he may just call the flop if we 3 bet. Again if opponent bricks the turn we may miss some value from draws.

Only problem I see with jamming is that people do like to hero fold. It would be opponent dependant. Generally in comps like these people play too tight or over value their hands. Against a tight player I might just 3 bet flop, against those who over value top pair I just jam and stack those chips when they're drawing dead.

I'd shove.

Pretty sure that if I had a big flush draw here I'd shove.

To balance this out I also like to shove when I have a set.

Shoving really makes it look like we want the other guy to fold so he may well hero call with a random Ax hand.

If he's got a flush draw himself he isn't putting 25k in to fold to a shove with 2 cards to come. If we min it and he flats to see a turn he may well get away from our turn shove with only the river to come.

when playing in live bowl comps, balance should be one of the last things we concentrate on whilst getting the max chips in each individuali hand should be number 1 priority.

Butchered it is a bit strong. I felt you could have got the lot if played differently.  I actually think jamming is fine against most but you fold out things you are beating such as semi bluffs and weak aces against a tighter player. The opponent was tight but not ridic tight. He clearly had something and i would suspect he thought you werent full of shit either, so when you jam he has to put you on AQ, 99 or AA and flush draws. Which means if he thinks yiu are not drawing he is going to fold his AK.  If you flat his raise and then check back the turn you may get the lot as he may think he can take yiu off it or his Ak is good.

I also think he had you down as tightish, as you had played sloid not really getting out of line. 

he has just started posting on here as aggers so lets ask him

Almost certain villain in hand had AJ. TBF, 'Butchered' was probably my wording Greg, but I tell Deano he Butchers most hands (easy to do when your on the rail as often as me!!)

I'd say he did lose his customer but if we define Villains hand as AJ can we really get anymore?? Flatting his 3bet and surely he should know hes beat, so maybe one more value bet whether that be turn or river would get paid. Clicking back can leave villain with a decision esp if hes getting married to his hand and if you add in that villain had 3b Deano pre in the previous hand and a mini dynamic was evolving. This could and would have been the nut option leaving villain to level himself into thinking he has a better holding than you and him doing his chips.

The vast majority of players in that comp bust or do most of their stack with top pair, just a plain simple fact.  Check out the final table of the last one. Full of old boys who did not over value top pair and stacked those people who did.

I think it looks absurdly strong when we make it like 45k - think he can hero fold hands like top and bottom or bottom two when we do this.

Think shove is better.

so we think that they will clal the all in with Ax but fold A9 (two pair) when we raise?

ok. in my argument i figured they are NEVER EVER folding these kind of hands.

I was the villain in this hand. Bit dubious posting in this thread (and revealing my hand) as I obviously played it badly (it was 1 of 3 hands through the day I really wasn't happy with) but this was the main reason for me joining here - so the prospect of getting criticised on here will make me slow down and stop spewing.

I had... AJ. At the time I just saw Leatherman bet 8.5K into a 19K pot (I was in the CO, the BTN called behind me and the blinds folded) on a wet board and raised to protect my top pair.... Obviously didn't think things through well, just jumped on the fact it looked a weak lead on wet board. I know now I was either slightly ahead or way behind but just rushed my thoughts at the time (big problem of mine). A few hands before he had raised in EP with A7o and I won the pot when it was checked all the way down on a scary board, so I thought he may have been a bit annoyed with that. Also I didn't want the button calling behind as he was one of the better players at the table.

What should I have done?

Not gonna lie I would have raised and called the shove with AQ, but that looks terrible now.

Flatting flop is superior to any other play

I wouldn't have to devote any of my precious concentration time on it. I'd just do it.

Getting the max chips out of the guy is the reason I try to make my hand look like I've got the flush draw.

In these 'live bowl comps' people always shove draws so it makes sense to shove made hands too imo.

but they arent thinking of what they are doing. in 80% of the time they are abs droolers looking at their cards and the board, they aren't thinking in ranges.

 ;welcome;  to blonde fella
Pretty sure u was button pal, because Northampton lad was bb I remember this as it was second time I'd raised his big blind and thinking that I didn't want to play many hands against him after seeing his soul read with Ace 3.
Yeh the A7o hand is one that I'd quickly like to forget about, just another hand that my biggest railboy (cBetts) told me that I'd butchered.
As for what should ya have done with Ace Jack CALL PLZ..  ;D

Ahhh so you went allin and he mucked !....you should of took Plenos line    :)

this

my line :p

it does, but the average live player just sees it as 'oh just 20k more? ok i call because I have top pair and that is good' Saying the average live player is gona fold A9 when we make it 45k is just wrong imo.

fyp :D

exactly yer

meh don't think Matt really meant balance in the sense you're thinking. He just means (as he explained) that his line is going to look more like draws too and is generally less strong than when we click back to 45. I agree.

Think his line is much better for this level of live comp.

they might see it like that at 25/50 when its level 1 but not at this stage imo.

From your perspective youve raised to see where you are in the hand.... which is okay as you got your answer ( he went all in )

As regards calling an all in with AQ....well most  people including me would call with top 2... its just unlucky to be losing to bottom set

Personally I think your play & thought process is fine.  (Bring on the flames )

Hehe   ;D

So if he flats your 25k bet what do you do on a totally blank turn?

Also if he made it 45k what do you do?

What about when dean shoves J10 or a heart draw?

What answer have you got then?

obviously, raising to find out where you are is 99% going to be the nut WORST line to take in a hand for obvious reasons.

I just added bring on the flames  :)..

I agree Cos..its a great question you ask and ofc a really difficult spot to call...what and if and but etc etc..

Pretty sure his call 45k and call jam range are the same. Much prefer a cram, i would never expect someone in the live pokeys to 4b a flop like ever. Think we might even get heros folds out of AJ with some people making it 45k.

HE CAN CALLLLLL

Oh, 80k in pot? 20 for me, I have top pur, ok I'll see a turn.

Oh wow only another 30k for me to see a river, wow i have two pair? flush draw. still top pair

droooooooooooollllllll

cc c c call

even the most terrribad players notice a clickback tho sir

and many players would go, he has wagered all of his betting discs. Hmmmm, well i have toppest pair, and there are cards of similar shape, and colour on the board. Gambol!

Also nature of tourney might mean people lol call with stuff cos re-entry etc

We raise for value and gain information as we do it. If we're raising for information we're doing something wrong.

Also bear in mind someone is likely to say, "But that raise is too small, its below the minimum" and the when the table find out it isn't its  (http://gifs.gifbin.com/1238157980_scanners_-_head_explosion.gif)

I think if he flats and then checks a blank turn to me I would probably have shoved. I know that's bad from me, but just being honest to show that would have been the best line for Leatherman.

Not sure about the 45K. Even with my rushed thoughts I think that would have alarmed me, but still not sure I could have got away from it.




This is why I knew pretty quickly that I'd made a mess of the hand - he can shove these hands as well as better hands than mine, so my raise just played into that.

Villain dependent but clicking this back vs most people for pretty much every reason Pleno said.

Does he had 100k back after he raises or 100k at the start of the hand?

If its 100k at the start of the hand so he has ~70k back I'd just jam. We're always getting it in vs 2pr or combo draws anyway so we want to do whatever is best vs his Ax one pair hands. If you jam you can just let him put you on a draw and call it off. Even your average villain in this comp is capable of understanding that you aren't bluffing here.

Put yourself in villains shoes. When a recreational player makes this sizing he has the absolute stones. I'd prefer not to give him a chance to put two and two together.

If we're deeper then I'd prefer the small raise because then we can legit give the illusion of fold equity.

At a guess I'd say he has 100 back after he's raised.. When he slipped them 5 purples over he looked very strong and I didn't really think he'd fold tbh.
If it had been the bb guy I'd like to think I would of clicked it back as he seemed more capable of some sick bluffs, like a few have said you don't see people raise folding TPTK in these sort of comps very often.
If I had just called I would of 100% jammed any turn unless it would of come the 9.  :D because it was slightly wet and I didn't have the stones.