blonde poker forum

Grand Prix last night, early doors.
We've reached the river of a pot where I raised pre, check called the flop, checked the turn which got checked back and we're at the river.
I picked up 2x1000 and 2x100 chips and moved my hand forward to make a bet of 2200. As I did so a single 100 chip fell from my hands whilst the other three stuck to my fingers. My intention was obvious (yes I know it's better to announce and most of the time I do) but my opponent instantly asked the dealer to rule this as a string bet.
I called for a ruling but since the dealer, youngish, inexperienced, nowhere near the level of a Craig/Scotty/Adrian said that she thought it was a string bet the ruling was that a bet of 100 stood.

Villain was totally open about his motives 'I'll shoot every angle I can' and in truth he called 100 where he would most definitely have folded 2200 so I made an extra 100 chips.
I understand the need to avoid players gaining some sort of advantage by somehow managing to increase a raise because their opponent looks like they are calling, but neither of the two cases mentioned fall into that category. Isn't the overriding rule of poker the requirement to act in a way that is equitable? My bet would have stood under the GUKPT rules and I could have shown just the pair of Jacks after my opponent folded, rather than the set I had to table at showdown and leave the nob in seat one and his even nobbier mate in seat two wondering if folding a pair of queens was right.

Much much later in the night, about two hands from the end a young Danish player on my table stacked all of his chips into one pile and pushed them forward over the line in response to a 3bet. But as he pushed, two 25,000 chips became stuck on the cloth and were left just behind the betting line. His opponent put up the standard cry and again, despite the intentions being totally clear, the ruling went with the 'angle-shooter' and against the player. The dealer in this instance was looking elsewhere when the player was making his bet.
 

From GUKPT rules as published online at
http://www.grosvenorukpokertour.com/About/GUKPT-Rules/

9.    String betting is not permitted. A string bet is defined as going back for more chips or using your bet to unfairly gain an advantage.

Roberts Rules says

14. String raises are not allowed. To protect your right to raise, you should either declare your intention verbally or place the proper amount of chips into the pot. Putting a full bet plus a half-bet or more into the pot is considered to be the same as announcing a raise, and the raise must be completed. (This does not apply in the use of a single chip of greater value.)

DTD Rules simply say that 'Dealers will be responsible for calling string raises' without defining them.




as a small aside, it was extremely satisfying to hit that Royal Flush to eliminate seat one, and the set of threes that eliminated seat two later on

yeah ive had this exact thing done to me before where 1 chip fell from the bottom of my hand, its pretty tilting because your intentions are pretty clear as you say.

Not even going to bother reading your post.

99.9% chance that it wasn't a string bet.

Obviously there isn't a problem if your bet is announced.

But if a dealer rules it as a string bet when they've quite clearly seen a chip accidentally fall over the line then they're an idiot and should go for immediate re-training. The problem is probably that a fair number of their bosses wouldn't see anything wrong.

I've seen lots of people doing chip tricks and often a chip will go over the betting line - following the same logic then these would have to be called as betting out of turn wouldn't they?

Ok. Have just read your post. Both of those bets are obviously fine. Surprised DTD have ruled that way in both cases. Though if it's the dealers rather than TDs then more understandable.

Most people don't know what a string bet actually is.

Will get you some more ky jelly for Christmas Dave x

More importantly- Gah! I was hoping the raise in buyin to £100 was going to have put off the unpleasant characters (I wanted to put one of a series of 4 letter words here, but decided to stick to family viewing) that I encountered during the last GP. Last time it was non-stop unpleasant behaviour on the tables I played on. Still the world's biggest pub poker tourney, then.

Thanks for reading it :-)

Verbalise your bets, simples :)

Both string bets.

You and the Danish kid made mistakes. Simple as that. The rule is there to protect all players. I would want the 100 chip bet to stand for sure. I can honestly say I don't think I have ever accidentally string bet in 15 years. Surely you are not advocating that we allow dealers to decide what he thought you meant to do? That sounds really lame.

I played in Ireland at a festival and a few of them take pride in string betting or under raising accidentally  on purpose and always with the nuts. So the rule exists to shaft them hopefully. A good tip is to slide your bet over line.

Also I have seen in cash games where a scumbag will shove his stack in yet a couple of £100 chips hang back so how do you know the dane wasn't at it in this spot?

Why would that not be a 100 chip bet in a GUKPT? 

They really aren't.

It's a habit I keep trying to get into.
You obviously play in games where angle-shooters are common. Damned sure about my intentions, and pretty damned sure about the Dane too.


Because the rule is as stated in the OP

You know, I usually disagree with GUKPT rules but that's a nice little definition of string betting.

gouty, you say the rule as you interpret it protects players. How have the people doing the betting in these hands had their interests protected by your interpretation?

It's the players who have not made mistakes that need protecting in these instances.

Why on earth are we protecting players that have made a fundamental error or possible shady play?  There is no way to tell the difference.

I have played in Gukpts and never seen em allow ambiguous betting before. Surely the Danish lad has bet everything except the 50,0000 he kept behind the line? That's as plain as daylight no?

If you start letting dealers decide what a players intentions are then you open the door for all sorts of shady play.

Of course OPs intentions are sound but why should he not be penalised for his error?

The only way this is an angle by the op is if he was staring at his opponent and looking for a reaction. Common sense needs to be applied, if the clear intention is to raise what is in hand and it is in one motion (i.e. not hesitating deliberately or going back to his stack).

UK TD's and dealers should understand the string bet, and not listen to angle shooting twats that are always calling for string bets because they want to remain in the pot cheaper.

That's me !!!

IS IT??! :)

I've been been playing live poker for over 20 years and I've yet to see a string bet made as an angle.

However, countless times I've seen the player calling out his opponent for making a "string bet" angleshooting.

Obviously neither of these two bets were intentional string bets.

In the vast majority of the cases I would be issuing a warning to the player calling a string bet.

I have never seen one single player i like or respect call someone out for a string bet and neither have they themselves ever intentionally string bet. Chip fumbling accidents happen.  Its the most tiltingly and wrongly applied rule going. Its almost always 100% obvious what a players intention was and that is what should be applied.

This, basically. And on a very serious note, why does nobody understand the string bet rule?! I've seen more incorrect string bet rulings than vice versa, which is incredibly worrying. The rule is there to protect players from angles, but players use this rule to shoot more angles than any other rule. Go figure.

Occasionally (and I mean very occasionally) I say to a player, "I could call for a ruling there, as that might well be considered a string bet. Be a bit more careful in future mate".

I see people point and get excited when they see a string bet. Like they just spotted some injustice. The same reaction they would have to somebody parking in a disabled bay. 'You can't do that!'

Very few things tilt and annoy me as much as people parking in a disabled bay without a badge.

Actually fell out for good with one of my best friends who used his mothers disabled badge for 18 months after she died until it expired.

It's not quite the same - I think it would be a bit more comparable if the person shouting at an abled bodied person using the disabled bay was only doing it because they were another able bodied person and were going to park in that space as soon as the space was vacated.

I called a a perfectly fine looking player out for parking in a disabled bay at DTD. He promptly did a pirouette to reveal the side of his body that had been hidden from me. Most of it had been bitten off by a shark. 

I was delighted to be able to witness that moment, & fortunately, all parties were & are friends.

Tom was mid-mouthful of a steak & kidney pie at the time, and actually stopped chewing momentarily.

Doubt I've ever seen Tom so non-plussed, & definitely never seen him speechless before.

As to the thread subject, I'm with Camel & Greg. I've been playing live poker well over a decade, & have done so in 10 or more countries, & I've yet to see a string bet, but I've seeen a thousand requests for "ruling" just because some guy fumbled his chips.

I actually have a theory a to why the "ruling" is requested so often in those circumstances, but I'd get lynched if I offered it up.

Do share your theory Sir. Take a risk, we'll do our best to protect you from the mob.

I may need a few hours to summon up the courage, David......

Don't string it out :)

I had a very similar situation in the Grand Prix, but had a much more experienced dealer and therefore got away with it. All I can say is if this ever happens, drop the other chips like theyre on fire and its easier to argue your corner lol

It's often suggested that we should verbalise our bets to avoid this issue and I've tended to agree, but it occurs to me that I could string bet verbally by declaring "six... teen"

Verbalising bets is a good idea for sure, but should never be mandatory because players often give off more tells with their voice than their actions.

Going off topic but the disabled analogy interested me. Seems more and more spaces are allocated to badge holders seemingly often resulting in large empty areas near entrances of supermarkets etc. I have a problem that periodically makes walking VERY painful and it tilts me that i struggle to the shop walking past empty spaces,  I would love to save myself the agony at times but for the rules.

oh yes I can

It's not only the rules but it's one of those things members of the public seem to police vigorously. They will generally do a mini medical assessment when you exit the vehicle and if they conclude there is no obvious physical deformity you will be lynched. Best bet is to limp away wincing in pain or bent over holding back. If they see your life is spent in suffering agony they will usually nod their approval and move on.

Another thing the public police with vigour is hard shoulder driving. I hit stationary traffic last night about 1 mile from my junction and drove down the hard shoulder to a chorus of beeps and boos like I was an evil panto villain.

You are an evil panto villain for that...

but on a similar topic I get royally pissed off when people (frequently truck drivers) block a lane to prevent a zip merge in a queue towards a lane closure.

Driving on hard shoulder is deffo not cool and you should be pelted with rotten tomatoes whilst tied to a cross trainer at your gym.

Agree on the zip merging, lorries are the nut worst for it.

buuut, who was the opponent david? Someone that comes out with an intention to angle should be ripe for some proper abuse/new degree of shooting.

But I drive the M42 every day and you can always use the hard shoulder for next junction exit cos the highways agency think it's a sensible use of that lane and it reduces the queue. Unfortunately if you apply the same logic yourself without first being told through the medium of a sign it is a public outrage. Wait this guy is thinking for himself, what a bastard.

At the sections of motorway that you are allowed to use the hard shoulder there is additional monitoring to try and ensure the safety of motorists who have broken down. If everyone did the same as you there is a possibility that the hard shoulder becomes blocked too. What happens when the emergency services want to get to an emergency. Evil man :)

wish I could remember his name. I did herbiesearch© him but there was nothing to see. He was Seat 1 table 33 at the start of Tuesday's GP Day1. His mate in Seat 2 was a nob too, again his name has gone but the herbiesearch© showed two small flags, a small cash in a £50 sidey at the Irish Open and a min cash in a GUKPT which I'd guess he satellited into. Seat 2 was actually a bigger pain than Seat 1. Took forever to make a decision and did it with loads of theatrical huffing and puffing before folding with the big 'I can't believe you got there, this hand had you crushed till you hit that miracle river' routine. He called the clock on himself at one point when I'd cold 4bet his 3bet. Claimed he was folding QQ but I'm 100% certain he didn't.
I'll check my ipad history later if you really want to know, but I doubt he plays the same events as Alex mfkn Martin.

Any chance of you explaining your theory yet Tikay?

http://www.dusktilldawncasinonottingham.com/result-info.php?id=2922

Click on "seating" not current seating.

literally the worst rule in poker the string bet rule, and the way it's enforced in England is just laughable, what has happened in this example is what happened in for 999,999 of the last 1,000,000 times string bets have been ruled, the person has made the tiniest most insignificant mistake and someone else on the table has bent the rules to gain an unfair advantage (which is cheating) and the TD has allowed the person to cheat.

What the String Bet Rule does is this:

1) It punishes tiny insignificant mistakes for no reason.

2) It really punishes weaker, inexperienced players

3) It gives people a free pass to angleshoot

Like Keith, I've played 4 sessions of live poker every week minimum for the last 5 years and I have yet to ever see an intentional string bet. The way they enforce the rule in America is perfect, you get one motion, you can pick up 40 chips, and put 26 of them in the pot, you can accidently drop 4 and still bet 23, but it's one movement with your hand, and obv anything verbal is binding, and of course, dealer common sense is allowed to play a part. Also in the states people aren't constantly trying to enforce string bets like they do here.

I was on table 33 .... Seat 1 was the villain.

If you have ten 1k chips in your hand, reach well over the betting line and drop six of them one by one onto the felt with intervals of let's say half a second and then take the other four back, with no verbal announcement, how much is the bet?

The bet should be 1,000 but I get the feeling you have been on the receiving end of a bad ruling and for this I am sorry.

No I haven't had a bad ruling, I just kind of disagree and I think if you don't verbalise your bets then you are opening up yourself up for a ruling against you if you make a mistake, as people do now and again.

How about if it was 0.2 seconds?

I've not seen much deliberate string betting apart from in Austria. Those Austrians are a bunch of string betting scumbags.

Count them out behind the line, and then slide them together over the line to bet. Simples.

Played in EPT Vienna in 2005 and the rule was any chips over the action line were in play. Comedy happenings in first few levels as people forgot and were for example calling 3k bets by picking up there entire 30k stack and dropping a 5 k chip off the bottom whilst hovering the rest over the line.  All in declared!

A mistake you only make once!

Also during a hand a guy fumbled his stack by total mistake whilst looking to call a smallish bet and about ten chips spilled over the line... Raise declared!

Stupidly applied rule, should have a common sense factor applied to it to allow for what the players intention was.

[ ] Thin.

Lol.
Hardly, youll see from my herbertmob that there aint no austrian flag flying. :-)