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The recent Violent outbursts from sections of the Muslim world over the mocking of Mohamed in an American film are most disturbing.

Fair enough it's very important to them and they have the right to be offended etc.. But is murder and mayhem a justifiable reaction ?

If Christians kicked off every time god or Jesus was mocked there wouldn't be anyone left alive.

Personally I think all religion is a bunch of hooey and has caused man more ills, death and destruction than a raft of dictorial maniacs put together... But I respect enough all those that believe in mystical deity's to allow them to do so without forcing my own opinions upon them..

I mean an American ambassador was murdered ffs... Usually that would provoke some kind of air strike and invasion from our stars and stripes brethren... But here they are just a bit apologetic like liberal parents with a unruly child..

Should we continue to stand by and allow this kind of chaos to continue ?
Do we think certain parts of the Muslim world ( who like all religions preach peace and love but seems to involve quite a lot of senseless killing to achieve it ) are not over reacting  to something that in reality is quite trivial ?

Discuss please...

Personally when I see the blind fanaticism in some of those hatred filled eyes it worries me greatly...

It's like an episode of 24.

Spose it's tough to strike back at Libya when the US helped liberate it. Obv zero justification behind any of these attacks. People using religion as an excuse to be nobs.

Not suggesting anybody invades anyone but ffs we r supposed to b living in a civilised world... Imagine some of these nut jobs with their finger on the big red button..??

Religion aside Iran and north Korea spring to mind as very dangerous in real world terms ...

Funnily enough I was going to start a thread myself but changed my mind because I thought it would end up a shit fest.

They need to get a fucking grip and stop taking all these little things way too seriously. There are always going to be people that will say xxx about whatever religion, it does their religion no favour whatsoever in the eyes of the rest of the world if they jump up and down like baboons in these scenarios. Lets face it they could do with a bit of positive PR for a change rather than kicking up as fuss at every little thing they don't like.

I think u can make ur point and ur displeasure clear without burning and killing....

Unfortunately harsh as it may sound we are dealing with an ignorance borne of subjugation where the mentality is indoctrinated from the off where freedom of thought is frowned upon and sheep like following is encouraged.

It's not the fault of the thousands on the street spewing hatred..it those that guide them, lead them to believe this is the way they should react... Look at the Pakistani leader shamelessly crowd pleasing to make his own position look better..guy should be ashamed endorsing such behaviour...he would go along way condemning the behaviour whilst also lodging a complaint on behalf of the Muslim world in the main political theatre...

We are truly lucky we live in such forgiving liberal societies ....

Never discuss if I can help it football - politics- religion

Someone I used to play Eve online with and a regular on another forum was killed in Libya along with a few other American diplomats.

Not much you can say really, peple looking for an excuse. I wouldnt be suprised if some Muslims paid for the lay budget movie to be made ( i have seen it and it is literally a man in front of a green screen low budget home movie) to kick off.  If most of these countries where they are kicking off hate the west so much lets cut ALL aid to them, stop dealing with them. How loud or the muslim community speaking out against these muppets?

http://youtu.be/GCXHPKhRCVg (http://youtu.be/GCXHPKhRCVg)

Pat sums it all up perfectly...

How much better would the world be without religion?

It's the people. If they didn't have religion they'd be using some other excuse

I think they need to take the high road. Maybe they are offended but just take the attitude that they aren't gonna rise to it

Imagine...

The rioters in London and the other big cities in the UK didn't even need the cover of religion to go on the rampage.

Disillusioned men without prospects carrying out the acts of violence in both scenarios?

lots of women involved

More men I'd guess though?  In many of the Muslim countries always going to be more men involved in riots because of the way women are treated in society (by men).

Sigh, why do I keep replying to these types of thread.

True removing religion would not end all that is wrong with the world but it would come closer than removing or changing anything else. When people honestly believe that they are doing a gods will you can justify anything. Without religion there would be less wars and people would just generally be nicer. I am not going to bother listing the problems caused by religion as you know them. A few people would find another excuse to be tossers but the majority of the issues caused by religion just would not happen. These people honestly think they are doing good somehow.

It's not the people (in the main), people are mostly good and try to do what is right "Religion Posions Everything".

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... pretty endless list. This common assertion that without religion there would be greater harmony in the world is so absurdly fallacious I'm surprised thinking people still make it

People are not that far evolved from the basic warring, plundering, take what you need, atavistic savages we always were.

A much more convincing argument is that religion, for the most part, civilises us.

Hitler was a Christian.

We don't need Religion to civilise us. We became civilsed by understanding to further ourselves as a race we needed to co-operate and work for the good of each other. It helps us by making our lives better and more enjoyable. We found this also helps other people.

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are good examples of why there would still be evil in the world without religion, thats not in question and to claim otherwise would be silly.

Look at the world at the moment and think about if the parts of it that have a heavy influence from religion are civilsed by it (Saudi Arabia, Iran Pakistan etc). Or the parts of the world that are no longer heavily influenced by it but used to be are now more or less civilsed (UK, France for example). I think the answer is quite easy. I can't think of an example of a county where bvecoming "more religious" has made it more civilized.

Yeah, he basically was although Christians will actually tell you he wasn't.

At the very least though he used religion to justify some of his actions. He is another example of somebody who would probably have found some other excuse anyway but religion helpfully provided him with one.

Tosser, really, you are

Hitler was massively into the occult - to say he was a christian shows how delusional this type of thinking is.

I'm open enough to recognise that religion causes a great deal of problems, but the root of that is man, not god or religion per se.

Are y'all really thick, or just pretending

True, but replace the word evil with good and it is equally true.

I would also recognize that religion has done good in the world, not as much good as it has done bad but yes it has done good. It may be true to say it does more good than bad in this country currently. Worldwide though it causes more harm than good and historically it has also. I still stand by the point that civilized countries tend to be less religious. Happy to be corrected on that if anybody has an example.

The fact is that yes man is what causes evil. Religion is a good (man made) tool to be used to justify it though, you can get the various religious text to support almost any view you want it too. So yes whilst evil is 100% caused by man people are more likely to support somebody who is claiming to be working towards the goal of an all powerful god. You can justify stoning women for not being virgins on their wedding night and executions for blasphemy based on this. These things are happening in the world today because of religion and only because of religion.

Did Hitler believe the Christian claims? I have no idea and it doesn't matter he claimed to be and people believed him and therefore some people who might have stopped and thought about it just followed him.

Also the statement Hitler was a Christian is a fact. He was a member of the Catholic Church and was never excommunicated. So he was, the theological argument as to what he actually believed is not relevant here. As far as most people were concerned he was religious.

Good argument.  Well done.

Whereas you would need to work quite hard to show Hitler was a christian, i wouldn't have to try quite so hard to back up my assertion

Pretty powerful argument imo

tbf, being a member of the catholic church does not necessarily mean you are a Christian and so of course the theological argument is relevant. If you want to set the bounds of what can and can't be debated then you render debate meaningless... which of course this is.

There is nowt so dogmatic as anti dogmatists

That's true to be fair.

It's also true that being a member of the Catholic or any other church does not make you a Christian I understand it. This is a different argument though isn't it? What somebody actually believes is not relevant (he could have been lying about being a Christian), it's how they make use of religion to manipulate other people.

It's entirely possible Hitler was just using Christianity as a tool, fine then he was not really a Christian. It did not stop him using it as a tool to manipulate people. I am not saying he would not have found some other way of going about it without religion but I would say that he probably influenced some people he otherwise wouldn't have due to them believing that he was doing gods work.

No your strawman argument is pathetically weak. If it's evidence you want, why not start with this:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

How many days do you reckon we can keep boshi busy for lads? ;whistle;

Taking Mein Kampf or any of Hitlers highly propagandised materials as gospel would be a mistake.

"Adolf Hitler was raised by a Christian Catholic father and a devout Catholic mother; he ceased to participate in the sacraments after childhood. In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches he often made statements that affirmed a belief in Christianity.[1][2] Prior to World War II Hitler had promoted "positive Christianity", a movement which purged Christianity of its Jewish elements and instilled it with Nazi philosophy.[3] According to the controversial collection of transcripts edited by Martin Bormann, titled Hitler's Table Talk, as well as the testimony of some intimates, Hitler had privately negative views of Christianity. Others reported he was a committed believer.[4][5]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Furthermore your links assertion that Hitler was Christian because he set up the Reich German Church is ridiculous. The Church was set up purely to move the Catholic/Protestants churches away from the general public. By creating this Church, that ignored the bible in favour of Mein Kampf, he prevented another voice in his public's conscience.
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As far as the current violence is concerned, I despise it. However, one has to ask why anyone would create a film that would provoke such anger. It is a chicken and the egg circle, no film = no violence, no extremism = no film

You're really quite insane.

It's like me referring you to a Nazi site as evidence that their racial theories & claims stand up to scrutiny

Rod,

Obviously I agree with you that 'religion' is hugely used as a 'stick to beat' by sick people. It's undeniable.

My only contention  is that there are plenty of non religious sick people and so fulminating against all religion because some bad people are religious is just illogical.

It's like fulminating against all liverpudlians because of Heysel - makes no sense

Thanks for making the points you make - as ever, interesting.

Thanks for adding your evidence to the debate.

I appreciate your diagnosis of my insanity based on my lack of belief of the completely irrational.

However, being a secularist I'd fight for your right to believe in what you want and to be able to practice your faith (at home, or in a place of worship) without you being threatened or your rights infringed upon. The only thing that stops people doing that is religion (and possibly extreme communist powers that exhibit a religious-like grip over the country).

Religion divides. It impedes on human rights (women in Muslim countries, gay people's rights in many Christian and Muslim countries, women's rights in Christian countries where they don't have the right to decide what to do with their bodies, the right for those who are dying and in pain to choose how they die is restricted by laws based on Christian beliefs that it's god who gives life and he who takes it away, etc.).

Of course, there are very good people who are part of all religions, just as there are bad people who aren't religious. But as the quote says, (and I paraphrase) evil people do evil things but it takes religion for good people to do evil things.

Incidentally, Godwin's Law; you lose :)

Mr. Kiniboshi

What?

I never said that Hitler carried out his atrocities in the name of religion, just that he was a Christian.  The same way that Stalin or Mao didn't kill millions in the name of atheism. There are plenty of wars in the name of religion, I don't recall any carried out in the name of atheism - but maybe I have selective memory?