blonde poker forum

Brief background on the hand, id been sitting for approx 4 hours bought in for 100 and sat with about 225 we were playing 6 handed where 3 players clearly knew each other very well. 1 of these lads was a yound lad you had re bought in for 160 twice after having AA cracked by a gut shot and top set crushed by a rivered flush.

This 1 hand played out like this,

I am on the BB and have  8h 8d

folds round to the button who is the young lad who is now sat with approx 500 after doubling up with KK against Q10

He raises to 8

SB and I both call

Flop is  6c 7s 9h (pot is 24)

SB checks, I check and the button makes it £16.

Sb folds I flat call.

Turn comes a  5s (pot is 56)

I check again and the he bets out £35

I flat call again.

River comes  Kc (pot is 126)

I bet out £60 he re Raises £165

Pass? Push for what I have left? or Fold with the 2nd Nuts?

Call. He is never raising worse for value on the river so shoving never gets called by worse and he isn't folding a chop. Its hard for him to have T8, especially when you have blockers

You're sat with 225 before the start of the hand? You're looking to get your entire stack in on this board,and if he's somehow got T8 then it's a cooler. His range is far wider than that and you'll be winning more often than not.

With the size of the betting it's perfect for you to get it all in now.

I flat called his 165 so 105 more to me...

At this point I say do you have it to the 10....

I show my 88 he mucks his cards and storms off for 5 minutes.

On his return I get asked how I can possibly call for an extra 105 almost all my stack when it was clear he had 10 8.

I asked why he mucked if he had 10 8!! ;)

Just thought id post it here and see what the professionals thought

How much do you have left behind if you call? If it's a small amount compared to the pot just shove cos it's live cash, your opponent will sigh flick it in if he's got anything at all.

meh makes pot bigger ie more rake right?

just call. info+he super polarized.

Rake should be capped. Jamming shouldn't affect the rake. In fact, at the Ricoh, if it's a chop, there is prob no rake.

Sat him down ;)

easy call.

But apart from calling river, you play so bad. Why no 3 bet, pre?

this is wrong. hand is played very standard.

It's not really wrong, why are we not 3 betting pre?

We seem to be focusing on the wrong things sometimes in PHA's.

Reasons to 3bet: Fold out better (never), Value (Somewhat)

Reasons to flat: Never get 4bet off our hand, setmining, keeping stack to pot ratio smaller allowing people to make bigger and more costly mistakes.

Would rather squeeze K7s then a pocket pair that plays beautifully postflop in this spot.

I agree perhaps we are focussing on the wrong thing in this hand. Because the river call once you've bet is totally trivial. The bet in the first place is the thing that could be discussed.

Chelsea boy, why did you lead the river when he had the betting lead? (What I mean by this is since you were the one checking and calling until the river, we say he has the "betting lead" or "initiative" and most poker hands play in flow where the person with the initiative is mostly checked to until the initiative switches with a raise).

We always want a reason for betting. Why are we betting rather than checking? You might have an excellent reason, for example, you had a read that he would try and bluff you if you bet, or you thought he'd check back two pair or a set on the river. But if you don't have a reason then it's probably a bad bet.

Regarding preflop, don't get me wrong, it's not bad to 3bet 88 here. But calling is definitely more standard and a better play generally for mainly the reasons Adam gave above plus quite a few others.

Vs someone who likes to 4bet a lot, then 3betting to 5bet jam might be pretty reasonable with 88 here (probably a reasonable spot to squeeze so 88 is a pretty reasonable hand to include in a spot where you might wanna widen your value range) but probably not the best as a standard for £1/£1 live games. With some reads or with some dynamic 3betting might be better

Its non stnd for sure and it's prolly not a line i'd have taken (I think i'd have c/r the flop) but I actually quite like the river lead (once we get to the river that is) I think with a 4 card straight on board he's very likely to chk/back any hand that can win at showdown, and he'll have made a king some % as well and he's defo chking that back imo, it's going to be a bad call from him but it's one at small stakes live cash id expect them to make quite a bit with a bunch of 1p hands.

I also really like the sizing, it's going to price him in with a lot of weak hands and you leave him plenty of room to bluff (as he did) even though i'd not expect him to do this all that often by betting 60 and not 90 you leave him the option.

For me personally I like to c/r the flop with the intention of betting turn and river on a high % of run outs, cards i'd avoid barrelling are J's and Q's generally speaking this sort of board is going to hit our range pretty well and with a strong draw, some equity and 2 blockers to the two straights I think it's a really good spot to take off.

My other reason for preferring to c/r over c/c the flop (there is nothing too much wrong with c/c btw) is that i think we leave ourselves venerable to getting outplayed with a c.c, by outplayed i mean he's going to be able to bet for value very easily and effectively and we'll be calling because we have a pair and an OESD he'll be able to pot control with his weaker hands and realise his equity - hands like KQ/KJ etc (by realise his equity I mean, if KJ has say 25% vs us on the flop, we'll let him see the turn and the river and 1 in 4 times he'll win the pot off us when we flopped such a strong hand, not only will we lose the pot, but we've not charged him a penny for outdrawing us and he will likely be able to value bet with his better hand when he makes it) and also he'll be able to bluff and semi-bluff against us and make us make a difficult decision at some point in the hand.

I think it's really important at the bottom of your strategy to always be thinking about how to make yourself as tough to play as possible, this is simple in theory - just try and make your opponent make MORE difficult and challenging decisions than you, I always say if you constantly MAKE people make decisions sooner rather than later even good players are going to make mistakes.

R.E Pre-flop, i don't disagree with Aaron, I think 3betting is abso fine and would defo do it myself from time to time, I think just calling is the stnd play because the pot will go multi-way very often and our hand plays extremely strongly in multi-way pots because when he hit (flop a set basically) our hand is so, so strong and we want as many people in the pot with a chance to put money in the pot. One point I will make on 3betting though is that we really need to be in a position where we can 5bet jam IF we are going to 3bet, as 3bet folding really is not a great play - I just played a hand yday where I randomly 3bet 77 for not really any reason and had to fold to a 4bet 110bb deep I felt like a huge tool. To be able to 5bet we need to have some sort of read or feeling for how our opponent is playing - usually if he's very very aggressive pre-flop (lots of 3 and 4 betting) then we can prolly find a really easy 3bet - with a plan 5bet profitably. I think if we don't this then just flatting the open is prolly the better play.

Not wrong or right to have called or raise pre, for sure.

Not really sure about set comments & multi-way? What if we do not hit, then looks a waste of £8, which it is ultimately if we don't hit flop, which is relatively unlikely.

Well we won't hit most of the time (like 1 in 8 isn't it math ppls?) its certainly not a waste of £8, we put ourselves in a position where we could win a big pot - we flop an 8 vs a bigger pair or AK on A87 or something we'll very likely win a 200+bb pot.

As for multi-way HoneyBadger wrote a great article (on PLO admittedly but the theory applies here) that hands have two characterisitcs i) FOCUS and ii) HIT-RATE, this theory, simply explained is that hands with a high focus hit the flop infequently, but very hard, and hands with a high hit-rate hit the flop frequently, but often not that strong, a hand like 6d8d for example will have a high hit-rate you'll flopping flush draws, pairs, gutshots, with backdoor draws very often, but these aren't often hands to play big pots with - a hand like 88 for example would have a very high FOCUS because whereas most of the time you'll have 1pair 8's for the entire hand when you do hit the flop you'll have an almost impenetrable hand (people could easily be stacking off with barely any equity vs you) and be in a position where you're very willing to play a big pot.

Hands with the HIT RATE are hands that you want to have heads up or 3 way - you'll often have a bit of something to be betting or calling with, hands with the focus are the multi-way hands, most of the time you just get in, miss and fold, but when you do hit you want lots of people in the pot to give yourself the best chance of someone having made a weaker hand.

I cant remember where Stu posted that strategy piece he wrote but it was really really good.

We are playing pot limit here anyway, so probably why I would raise, would keep custom here most of time?

which bit of the hand are you referring to? preflop?

Yh i mean 3betting is defo fine, all i was doing is explaining WHY 88 plays so good multi-way, which is defo does. It's also a strong hand pre-flop and likely a better hand than our opponent who has opened.

You explain it better than I do, you are spot on. Neither is wrong, but I would personally 3bet, just.

I dont remember the stack sizes but with it being pot limit that might make calling slightly better depending on whether you can 5bet appropriately.

My only gripe with 3betting is that 3bet folding really seems tragic, we're missing out on a great spot to take 88 to the flop 5 handed and try win a big pot for £8 investment and instead we've paid £30 and not even seen the flop. 

Thanks for all of the advice... The reason I didnt raise pre was that on 2 occasions prior to this I raised up pre with 55 and 99 where I got 3plus callers on a board of K J A and the other time 10 10 A and had to pass to a bet on the flop.

So this time I thought Id flat call and see if I hit or not. When the flop has come and I was up and down I again checked with no intention of ever passing or raising but let the guy who raised pre bet out again. I can only ever assume after the fact that he AK AQ AJ.

The only bad point for me in the hand was not betting the turn and taking control. I was to happy to flat call and then hope for a brick on the river, as it happens the K was a nice card and the 60 bet from me was intentionally showing weakness hoping he would come over the top I didnt look convinced.

He knows ive got something because ive called every street but wanted him to think I was weak, I knew the chances of him having the 10 8 were slim so I dont think I ever considered folding when he bet out 165.

The reason I asked was because of the verbal run down that I got after the hand, which he told his mate he would need to discuss on the way home to see if he could of got away from it! lol

Thanks again!

How are the chips not in the middle obvs the river??

I play this game quite reg at cov, think i know who you are recferring to also.
Def getting it in here, if he has 10 8 its a cooler but the chances are so slim with the raise pre and your blockers.

Agree with Alex about why you are betting out you should have a plan for the hand when you make any move. Also you make him fold his air which he might be 3 barrelling.

Either way how did he pot to 8 when folded around to the button?

Think you have played the hand well. 3 betting pre is not a good idea unless ur happy playing for stacks here, but not sure thats too great in this game, I mean how often is he 4bet bluffing? more likely to call and make your life hell on all sorts of flops, and if he's happy to get it in pre then don't think 88 plays great vs his range. Unless he is that crazy??
The river lead is interesting, and I think the fact that it is a bit of a weir line has worked to induce the bluff, but agree with Alex, make sure before you lead the river you know why you are doing it and what you want to happen, Never fold river in this spot. You have taken a weird river line and this will induce bluffs a lot of the time, if he has 108 its a cooler and just hand the man your money...

Exactly what he said.

With small pairs in games like this we're looking to win big pots when the board hits us hard.  Of course you might want to mix things up, but with smaller pocket pairs OOP against an UTG raiser it's an opportunity to call and see a flop.

This isn't really what we should be thinking, in poker you should be concerning yourself with how to affect the things you can affect, not the things you can't. What cards have come out previously should never be a basis for deciding your actions later - if the flops previous had come 522 and K94 you would have 3bet here with the 88? We can't influence what cards the dealer is going to put out, so we should be thinking i) can we get more money in the pot here with a dominating hand, ii) can we make him fold a better hand, iii) how does our decision here affect what we're going to do later in the hand - if out of those questions a reason to raise or bet comes then, and only then should we bet or raise.

As it happens here I think you've made the right decision not to re-raise pre-flop, but if you did it for those reasons then they weren't really correct.

And don't worry about the guys verbals after the hand, he's just annoyed that you called his bluff and he lost the hand - you've played the hand well pre-flop, although as I said my prefered line would havebeen to check and raise the flop, but I like the way you played the hand too.

Really try and think before you do anything WHY am I doing this, I always say if you can't think of a legitimate reason to do something then the chances are it doesn't need to be done.

WHAT does you hand look like to your opponent
WHY do you want him to do it
HOW can you make him do it.

Forget about what cards have come out and really think about these thinigs, it's like a chess game, everything should be designed to make your opponent make difficult decisions, and the more decisions you make people make, then the more errors you'll make them make (probably)

I am pushing the river for sure, from what you have said about this players range from previous hands and how the hand played out I think he either has a set, overpair or top pair which turned the flush draw and rivered 2 pair. When he is raising on the river you can cancel out TT, JJ & QQ which leaves you with K9ss, AA, KK or 99, 77, 66. You beat all of these hands so ship it in!

Can you clarify whats left after in effective stacks after the £165?

I cant be exactly sure on the exact figures but when he makes it 165... 105 more to me I think I was left with about 50-100 behind.

In hindsight and for future reference I should of pushed over the top and shipped it all in instead of just calling.

I went though the hands he could have in my head before calling... I think if I push he passes anyway but then again for only 50-100 more he would more than likely just call me off.

He can have them but won't raise/call with them

pot OTR is £126 and £8 of it is dead (not from you or your opponent) yh? so you've put £59 in and you started the hand with £225 which means you'd have had £166 behind?

Either way if you have  between £30 and £100 behind I think calling and going all in are virtually the same thing as the majority of the time he'll have an 8 and you'll be splitting or he'll be bluffing and he'll fold - I think we can agree he's pretty polarised to either an 8, T8 or a bluff when he raises the river, so tbh I honestly don't think there is much difference between going all and just calling his raise on the end.

I think the action before his rive raise is much more interesting for analysis personally

I'd shove just because live people will flick in the extra with sets maybe even 2 pair (although admittedly the times he has these isn't very often)

easy shove, why flat flop and turn just to flat to a reraise from your lead once you've hit what you wanted?

in other words, why flat flop and turn if you dnt think hitting your straight is good?

what would you do if the turn is a deuce and river  Kh?

I'd say he has T8 MORE times than he's raised worse for value. So if say he calls 100% of the time that he isn't "bluffing" you'll prolly show a loss on the call, but the numbers so small it's irrelevant really. Plus if the pot size and numbers in the OP are correct than he has £1 behind.


This isn't really the right thought process, just because we've called for a "draw" (this is a draw but slightly different as we have a pair as well) doesn't mean we MUST raise now we've gotten there, the reason we called is either because we have the immediate equity to do so (almost certainly the case in this hand) or we have the implied odds, i.e we feel likely to get one more bet if we improve our hand. For example in this hand I'd have been pretty happy to have hit the straight on the turn and gotten just his turn bet, by this point on the river we've gotten three more bets out of him which is way more than we could have expected when we called the flop.

Just because we've hit our straight doesn't mean we now have to put the maximum amount of money in the pot, and abandon all caution (not saying we SHOULDN'T shove the river here btw, just saying the thought process of saying "we've hit so lets get it all in" doesn't have to be true.)

Like I said I think the flop check/call and the river lead are the two points of the hand which make for interesting analysis - as for the guy mouthing off after the hand he's just being a bad loser.

"just because we've hit our straight doesn't mean we now have to put the maximum amount of money in the pot, and abandon all caution"

In does in my world.

haha i mean most of the time we will defo want to, don't wanna make a habbit of hitting straights and playing like nits :D

Just saying because we've called hoping to hit it doesn't mean we have no choice but to get the lot in when we do, as much as most of the time we'll want too.

hmmm I was thinking the same.. but had 90% telling me to get it in and the other 10 saying he may have 10 8 just flat and see!

Let say for example he has 70% of the time just an 8, 10% of the time a bluff, 10% of the time he's raising a worse hand for value 10% of the time he has T8

When you go all in for lets say - £50 more, when he has an 8 or a bluff going all in makes no difference as he'll fold or call it'll chop. The 1/10 times he has T8 he calls and you lose an extra £50, the time he has a worse hand and calls you win an extra £50 so if those numbers were correct, then going all in would be EXACTLY the same as just calling - if you see why?

Now lets suppose out of the 10% of the time he has a worse hand, 10% of this time he folds, and doesn't call - he will ALWAYS call when he has T8, so NOW calling is BETTER than going all in because 1% of the time you'll lose an extra £50 now.

Anways, said the same thing 4 different ways now lol

you only £1 back if the numbers are right? I'd throw it to the dealer in advance and just call :P

FYP :D

lolol

I played in a vegas game once where a guy won a huge pot and said as a semi-rub cos the guy who lost was on his last bullet "take what you need to get home" and he took $3k and said tyvm i'll get a first class upgrade (he lived in France lol)

Dave, it wasn't an article... it was an email to a friend to help teach him PLO. I sent you a copy of the email to see what you thought about my ideas of focus and hit rate. I could turn it into an article though, or perhaps just a post in my thread?

The concepts of focus and hit rate don't apply as clearly in NLHE as they do in PLO. But they still apply to some extent. However, I'd suggest that a better example of a hand with a high hit rate would be JTs as opposed to 86s. The difference between the two hands is that JTs also flops plenty of quite good one pair hands (it has some high card strength) as well as the straight and flush draws. 86s usually hits a weak bottom pair when it flops a pair - which means it does not really qualify as having a high hit rate IMO. Hands like AK/AQ/KQ etc also have higher hit rates than they have focus (esp the offsuit versions) - i.e. they often flop a good top pair, but rarely flop a 'monster' that you'd want to put a TON of money in with if the SPR is very high.

arrr yh you're right sorry i wouldn't have posted it if had remembered that I thought you'd posted it on here!

Anyways it was really good, PLO specific certainly, but i thought the example was highly applicable to this spot pre-flop when explaining about why 88 is a great hand to have in a multi-way pot.

I understand, my figures initially were rough estimates because I did have a little bit behind more than 1£ :) but I understand your theory in calling and not pushing in this situation.

The whole hand makes for a decent debate, I know I played the turn bad and then the river I was just hoping for a brick. I have been a member here for sometime but was more a reader than a poster, but the reception has been very good and there is loads of good advice and experience to draw off.

Thank again to all who commented!

Definitely useful having you and Stu discuss stuff like this on here. Much appreciated.

I don't think you played the turn badly at all - I wouldn't have played turn/river like this but chk/call then lead river I actually quite like the line, river as played i have a feeling checking is slightly better than betting (stack sizes we're a bit hazy on) but I thinking betting is a good play too.

I just think personally chk/raising the flop is a better play than check calling that's really the only part of the hand I didn't like too much but it's certainly not a bad play and I think a lot of people would have chk/called.

Keep posting, good threads have come from the seemingly trivial hands before.

learnt a fair bit from the discussion since my post!

apart from grasping the initative in the hand from a re raise on the flop, what would be your others reasons for doing so? also if we were to re-raise, how would we respond to a 3bet out of position with effective stack sizes?

Respond to a flop 3bet I'm not 100% sure on the stack sizes so I'm not quite sure lol, i'd expect to get re-raised OTF so very infrequently though as it's a board which hits your range pretty hard

wtf 4 pages? seriously? :D most clear call ever? hes not raising worse hands for value.. hes probably bluffing, were chopping a lot whne hes not bluffing.

call.

/thread :)

what would your preferred line be in this hand though Pleno? and what do you make of the thought process behind Hero's line in this hand?

My Fault :) asking to many questions :)

Probably about as spot on an analysis as you're likely to find on here.

Not your fault at all, Pleno  just being grumpy ;)

Patrick what would you do on this flop, and why?