Live Hand Last Night £1 £1 pot limit (Ricoh Coventry)

[SuuPRlim]

Its non stnd for sure and it's prolly not a line i'd have taken (I think i'd have c/r the flop) but I actually quite like the river lead (once we get to the river that is) I think with a 4 card straight on board he's very likely to chk/back any hand that can win at showdown, and he'll have made a king some % as well and he's defo chking that back imo, it's going to be a bad call from him but it's one at small stakes live cash id expect them to make quite a bit with a bunch of 1p hands.

I also really like the sizing, it's going to price him in with a lot of weak hands and you leave him plenty of room to bluff (as he did) even though i'd not expect him to do this all that often by betting 60 and not 90 you leave him the option.

For me personally I like to c/r the flop with the intention of betting turn and river on a high % of run outs, cards i'd avoid barrelling are J's and Q's generally speaking this sort of board is going to hit our range pretty well and with a strong draw, some equity and 2 blockers to the two straights I think it's a really good spot to take off.

My other reason for preferring to c/r over c/c the flop (there is nothing too much wrong with c/c btw) is that i think we leave ourselves venerable to getting outplayed with a c.c, by outplayed i mean he's going to be able to bet for value very easily and effectively and we'll be calling because we have a pair and an OESD he'll be able to pot control with his weaker hands and realise his equity - hands like KQ/KJ etc (by realise his equity I mean, if KJ has say 25% vs us on the flop, we'll let him see the turn and the river and 1 in 4 times he'll win the pot off us when we flopped such a strong hand, not only will we lose the pot, but we've not charged him a penny for outdrawing us and he will likely be able to value bet with his better hand when he makes it) and also he'll be able to bluff and semi-bluff against us and make us make a difficult decision at some point in the hand.

I think it's really important at the bottom of your strategy to always be thinking about how to make yourself as tough to play as possible, this is simple in theory - just try and make your opponent make MORE difficult and challenging decisions than you, I always say if you constantly MAKE people make decisions sooner rather than later even good players are going to make mistakes.

R.E Pre-flop, i don't disagree with Aaron, I think 3betting is abso fine and would defo do it myself from time to time, I think just calling is the stnd play because the pot will go multi-way very often and our hand plays extremely strongly in multi-way pots because when he hit (flop a set basically) our hand is so, so strong and we want as many people in the pot with a chance to put money in the pot. One point I will make on 3betting though is that we really need to be in a position where we can 5bet jam IF we are going to 3bet, as 3bet folding really is not a great play - I just played a hand yday where I randomly 3bet 77 for not really any reason and had to fold to a 4bet 110bb deep I felt like a huge tool. To be able to 5bet we need to have some sort of read or feeling for how our opponent is playing - usually if he's very very aggressive pre-flop (lots of 3 and 4 betting) then we can prolly find a really easy 3bet - with a plan 5bet profitably. I think if we don't this then just flatting the open is prolly the better play.

[aaron1867]

Not wrong or right to have called or raise pre, for sure.

Not really sure about set comments & multi-way? What if we do not hit, then looks a waste of £8, which it is ultimately if we don't hit flop, which is relatively unlikely.

[SuuPRlim]

Not wrong or right to have called or raise pre, for sure.

Not really sure about set comments & multi-way? What if we do not hit, then looks a waste of £8, which it is ultimately if we don't hit flop, which is relatively unlikely.

Well we won't hit most of the time (like 1 in 8 isn't it math ppls?) its certainly not a waste of £8, we put ourselves in a position where we could win a big pot - we flop an 8 vs a bigger pair or AK on A87 or something we'll very likely win a 200+bb pot.

As for multi-way HoneyBadger wrote a great article (on PLO admittedly but the theory applies here) that hands have two characterisitcs i) FOCUS and ii) HIT-RATE, this theory, simply explained is that hands with a high focus hit the flop infequently, but very hard, and hands with a high hit-rate hit the flop frequently, but often not that strong, a hand like 6d8d for example will have a high hit-rate you'll flopping flush draws, pairs, gutshots, with backdoor draws very often, but these aren't often hands to play big pots with - a hand like 88 for example would have a very high FOCUS because whereas most of the time you'll have 1pair 8's for the entire hand when you do hit the flop you'll have an almost impenetrable hand (people could easily be stacking off with barely any equity vs you) and be in a position where you're very willing to play a big pot.

Hands with the HIT RATE are hands that you want to have heads up or 3 way - you'll often have a bit of something to be betting or calling with, hands with the focus are the multi-way hands, most of the time you just get in, miss and fold, but when you do hit you want lots of people in the pot to give yourself the best chance of someone having made a weaker hand.

I cant remember where Stu posted that strategy piece he wrote but it was really really good.

[aaron1867]

We are playing pot limit here anyway, so probably why I would raise, would keep custom here most of time?

[SuuPRlim]

We are playing pot limit here anyway, so probably why I would raise, would keep custom here most of time?

which bit of the hand are you referring to? preflop?

Yh i mean 3betting is defo fine, all i was doing is explaining WHY 88 plays so good multi-way, which is defo does. It's also a strong hand pre-flop and likely a better hand than our opponent who has opened.

[aaron1867]

We are playing pot limit here anyway, so probably why I would raise, would keep custom here most of time?

which bit of the hand are you referring to? preflop?

Yh i mean 3betting is defo fine, all i was doing is explaining WHY 88 plays so good multi-way, which is defo does. It's also a strong hand pre-flop and likely a better hand than our opponent who has opened.

You explain it better than I do, you are spot on. Neither is wrong, but I would personally 3bet, just.

[SuuPRlim]

I dont remember the stack sizes but with it being pot limit that might make calling slightly better depending on whether you can 5bet appropriately.

My only gripe with 3betting is that 3bet folding really seems tragic, we're missing out on a great spot to take 88 to the flop 5 handed and try win a big pot for £8 investment and instead we've paid £30 and not even seen the flop. 

[chelseaboy]

Thanks for all of the advice... The reason I didnt raise pre was that on 2 occasions prior to this I raised up pre with 55 and 99 where I got 3plus callers on a board of K J A and the other time 10 10 A and had to pass to a bet on the flop.

So this time I thought Id flat call and see if I hit or not. When the flop has come and I was up and down I again checked with no intention of ever passing or raising but let the guy who raised pre bet out again. I can only ever assume after the fact that he AK AQ AJ.

The only bad point for me in the hand was not betting the turn and taking control. I was to happy to flat call and then hope for a brick on the river, as it happens the K was a nice card and the 60 bet from me was intentionally showing weakness hoping he would come over the top I didnt look convinced.

He knows ive got something because ive called every street but wanted him to think I was weak, I knew the chances of him having the 10 8 were slim so I dont think I ever considered folding when he bet out 165.

The reason I asked was because of the verbal run down that I got after the hand, which he told his mate he would need to discuss on the way home to see if he could of got away from it! lol

Thanks again!

[Bully87]

How are the chips not in the middle obvs the river??

[Killerkilsby]

I play this game quite reg at cov, think i know who you are recferring to also.
Def getting it in here, if he has 10 8 its a cooler but the chances are so slim with the raise pre and your blockers.

Agree with Alex about why you are betting out you should have a plan for the hand when you make any move. Also you make him fold his air which he might be 3 barrelling.

Either way how did he pot to 8 when folded around to the button?

[Deadman]

Think you have played the hand well. 3 betting pre is not a good idea unless ur happy playing for stacks here, but not sure thats too great in this game, I mean how often is he 4bet bluffing? more likely to call and make your life hell on all sorts of flops, and if he's happy to get it in pre then don't think 88 plays great vs his range. Unless he is that crazy??
The river lead is interesting, and I think the fact that it is a bit of a weir line has worked to induce the bluff, but agree with Alex, make sure before you lead the river you know why you are doing it and what you want to happen, Never fold river in this spot. You have taken a weird river line and this will induce bluffs a lot of the time, if he has 108 its a cooler and just hand the man your money...

[kinboshi]

Think you have played the hand well. 3 betting pre is not a good idea unless ur happy playing for stacks here, but not sure thats too great in this game, I mean how often is he 4bet bluffing? more likely to call and make your life hell on all sorts of flops, and if he's happy to get it in pre then don't think 88 plays great vs his range. Unless he is that crazy??
The river lead is interesting, and I think the fact that it is a bit of a weir line has worked to induce the bluff, but agree with Alex, make sure before you lead the river you know why you are doing it and what you want to happen, Never fold river in this spot. You have taken a weird river line and this will induce bluffs a lot of the time, if he has 108 its a cooler and just hand the man your money...

Exactly what he said.

With small pairs in games like this we're looking to win big pots when the board hits us hard.  Of course you might want to mix things up, but with smaller pocket pairs OOP against an UTG raiser it's an opportunity to call and see a flop.

[SuuPRlim]

Thanks for all of the advice... The reason I didnt raise pre was that on 2 occasions prior to this I raised up pre with 55 and 99 where I got 3plus callers on a board of K J A and the other time 10 10 A and had to pass to a bet on the flop.

This isn't really what we should be thinking, in poker you should be concerning yourself with how to affect the things you can affect, not the things you can't. What cards have come out previously should never be a basis for deciding your actions later - if the flops previous had come 522 and K94 you would have 3bet here with the 88? We can't influence what cards the dealer is going to put out, so we should be thinking i) can we get more money in the pot here with a dominating hand, ii) can we make him fold a better hand, iii) how does our decision here affect what we're going to do later in the hand - if out of those questions a reason to raise or bet comes then, and only then should we bet or raise.

As it happens here I think you've made the right decision not to re-raise pre-flop, but if you did it for those reasons then they weren't really correct.

And don't worry about the guys verbals after the hand, he's just annoyed that you called his bluff and he lost the hand - you've played the hand well pre-flop, although as I said my prefered line would havebeen to check and raise the flop, but I like the way you played the hand too.

Really try and think before you do anything WHY am I doing this, I always say if you can't think of a legitimate reason to do something then the chances are it doesn't need to be done.

WHAT does you hand look like to your opponent
WHY do you want him to do it
HOW can you make him do it.

Forget about what cards have come out and really think about these thinigs, it's like a chess game, everything should be designed to make your opponent make difficult decisions, and the more decisions you make people make, then the more errors you'll make them make (probably)

[chiphungry]

I am pushing the river for sure, from what you have said about this players range from previous hands and how the hand played out I think he either has a set, overpair or top pair which turned the flush draw and rivered 2 pair. When he is raising on the river you can cancel out TT, JJ & QQ which leaves you with K9ss, AA, KK or 99, 77, 66. You beat all of these hands so ship it in!

[muckthenuts]

Can you clarify whats left after in effective stacks after the £165?