blonde poker forum

Playing 2/2 DC last night and we are on last round. Few people chasing the game is 6 handed and lots of action

im in the cutoff and limp in with  Ac 5c 3s after a couple of limpers. Button checks Wildcat in the BB makes it 10 more playing around 1k which we cover.

2 callers we call and the button calls so 5 way action. We show  3s

Wildcat shows  Td and hits  Qs. Next player bricks and TJ as Wildcat called him all night has shown   9d Jh. We have 3s 2s showing. Button  3h 4h. Player who bricked was 1st to speak and he checks it round. Button bets 12 player 100 with 60 already in the pot. Wildcat raises to 96. Brick folds. TJ folds we call button laugh folds.

5 street wildcat hits  5d. TJ  4d we hit  Aspades. Now our board looks super strong but we dont actually have a low yet and just 1pr for the high. I decided a check is too weak and we still want to build the pot a little but we dont quite love stacking off here just yet. I bet 100 and both players call.

6 street wildcat hits  Td. TJ hits  8h and we hit the freerolltastic  6c.

So what do we do know pot is about 775. wildcat has 705 remaining. TJ has about 1200 behind and we have about 1k.

Loving life. Expect TJ  is too, after all he is still in the hand :)

FML @ that lad saying "I've seen you on the Telly, you are TJ", & then calling me TJ all damn night. Before long, the whole of Luton-G were calling me TJ.

Bleurgh.

What do you think TJ had under?

TJ showed the 9 as his Up Card, & drew a J 4th Street.

PS - Extraordinary hand, beautifully played by Jim.

When you've done the hand TJ and 77D, would love you to talk about why you show the up cards you do and some of the strategy behind it all

Jim you have A-3-5cc, and you show the 3, to hide the Ace and the flush potential?


Fascinating game, and I am crap at it

Jim, I hope you Post a few more of these DC hands from last night, would love to hear the views of others, especially TPAFKALD.

My memory is shot, I cant really remember them without prompting.

That big LowBall hand would be good, too......

99

Happily. I'll let Jim finish the reveal first though.

In fact, as to "Up Cards", the Lowball hand is a corker as to what we show, & why, & the subsequent thinking & line. It was 100% com actually, more of which later.

bet!

You have far and away the best hand your decisions are whether you try keep them both in the pot (which yur most likely just going to get half of) or whether you try and force them off there high hands. The most logical assumption here is that they both have trips - if we pot this 6th street then they should defo both fold but in reality they prolly wont.

I like your play on 5th street taking control with the strongest board. You have the best, 100% live draw like you say chk.call here and you basically say to the table I HAVE PAIRED MY ACE NOW! also you should never get raised here ever which is nice.

For me I think you should pot and try get them both folding, also if they both call then thats amazing and if you pick one of them up thats fine too as you've got a lot of card to freeroll them with. Obviously them both calling, or both folding are the best results.

agreed that was my plan, i dont mind what they do as long as they both do the same, both call or both fold. We dont want 1 call and 1 fold.

What if - hypothetically of course - I had J-J under & hit another J on 4th street?

ALSO relevant is that this is the penultimate hand of the night, & I am around £600 up. BOTH other players have about the same as me, we are all playing circa £1,200.   

77Dave is about a grand up, I believe.

Jim all u need to do is say what would Alan do ha ha ha......wish I never bothered goin to Dtd yesterday sounds like the game was juicy

That went well then......

was a very good game very deep very juicy

if only you ever replied to a text.

as an unwritten rule you should never reveal an ACE as the betting starts each round from the highest shown hand, so Ace high will very often have to act first on a lot of the streets.

Which other cards to show is an interesting point, me personally in THIS example with  Ac 3s 5c my "stnd" play would be to reveal the 5c - reason for this is imo Superstud isn't a game where you need to be overly deceptive about what you're "going for" as I much prefer to be making people fold - so if I pick up a low club next card I wanna use the perception of me having a flush draw to try get more folds (this is a "safer" play because all i need is one more club then I DO ACTUALLY have a flush draw!)

However there are loads of good reasons to show the offsuit card as well - Stu B who I think is maybe the best I ever seen play this game very often does what you did here and show the offsuit three.

Its really cool though picking which card to show and thinking about all the possibilities down the streets with each card you've shown, obviously depends massively on what cards you get but still fun :P

One question for you R.E this hand - what was your plan on a bricked 6th street? say you get the Jh? Also what would you have done on a high spade?

Yeah if only Dtd had a phone charging stand like the g !!!

in theory that's the same thing but it's defo slightly  better for us because on the surface because WC will wanna bet against TJ perceived 999 and TJ will get the money in against WC as he has now in his mind over-tripped him, and we can carve half this pot up happily!

This will end up heads up and be split a high % of the time- the more people are winning the better as you should be able to get more folds as its the last hand. Either way we can't lose lol

Well 77Dave was showing what LOOKED like.....

1) A made Low.

2) A possible flush.

WC was showing.....

Q-T. I was almost certain he had T-T-T, so I had him well beaten. Probably. And he called 77Daves jam.

And so I.......folded.

Because........whilst I am sure I have WC beat, 77Dave (first to act) has lead out, covers me, & can be scooping the lot here. I cover WC (assumed T-T-T) by a few hundred.

One of the best aspects in stud games is that position can change as they hand goes along. On 4th street i was in position on most of the players, hitting the  Aspades on 5th street although appearing to be a monster card has not taken me out of position.

So depending on if either of the other 2 pair up which obv changes the strength of their hands and regives us position im in quite a tough spot if i do brick the turn.

I know you said 100% of the time we cant get raised by WC went we bet the £100 i kinda see the raise as his best play as he is never going to fold even if i hit  4s next card. So he is actually better off jamming with 2 cards to come rather than calling it all off with 1 card remaining.

So i guess the plan on bricking the next street either totally or improving my draw is another blocker/value bet prob £200

FYP

Also true.

Still a fold for me with my J-J-J. My very best hope is a chop, but I genuinely thought you could well have both ends.

You bet £700 or whatever, WC calls, the pot is well north of £2,000. I have to fold.

If you bet £300, I probably call though. Which is daft.

You made a good fold Tikay.

Pot if you all go all in will be £2,800 main and £1k sidepot (you and 77dave), you have to put in £1200 once we know WC is all in as well and you know you will win the low never and it's pretty much nailed on 77dave has the low so you're pots are £1400 and £500 and WC still has 7-9 full house outs (you do as well ofc) and lets not forget 77dave has to have at least 6 high outs against you, so you are investing £1200 to win £1900 no gte of having the best hand and minimum 13 outs to dodge being scooped - lets not forget ofc you can make a boat as well.

These are not spots you wanna get yourself into for big money in SuperStud.

I would never like to be critical but you got yourself into this messy spot (which you got out of cheaply wp) with the call pre-3rd street, problem with JJ9 is that you're only ever really making high hands with it and in a pot that's gonna go multi-way you are just inviting yourself to be free-rolled by playing this hand to start with.

If he bets £300, it's slightly different as you're getting a way better price to make a boat now, speshly with WC and his inferior trips in the hand.

Jim / dave I think you played the hand really good, I kinda want you to bet more on 5th but I actually think the size you bet might be perfect - I would have 100% bet more in game but i'm a bit trigger happy like that :P

Yup, I deffo should have bailed out earlier, but I just kept looking at my J-J-J, & WC's asumed T-T-T. Then Jim solved my problem by Potting, so I ducked out. Deffo should have folded earlier though.

I had another groan spot in Super-Stud, too.

I had 4-5 under, showed a 3, & drew the wheel-tastic 2.

Guy to my left is showing all Broadway stuff, Paul Garnham is showing what eventually looks like a 7 low, and a flush.  

By 6th street I have double-paired, having drawn a 5 & a 3. So, 2-3-3-4-5-5.

BIG 3 way pot, & I can scoop, chop 2 ways, or lose the lot.

My 7th street was a 2, so I miiss the lot, & have three pairs.

My 7th street thoughts was that I can wheel, straight, or house.

I initially thought I was unlucky to miss.

Then geezer to my left Tables T-T-T-Q-Q.

Paul Garnham now looks like chooping by taking the low hand, & I'm sat there empty handed with a curly lip.

T-T-T-Q-Q man is ready to scoop the pot in, Paul Garnham says, "I have an out for the straight flush"........and draws it, for  5h 6h 7h 8h 9h

Yikes.  

Tikay what were your thoughts on 4th street on you hid you mystery jack. WC has just raised the pot to 96 and action is on you.

Ok im showing  3s 2s but i havent put a penny in this pot yet. You must know you have WC beat at this stage if you raise the pot here your now HU and racing WC with your higher trips.
Of course things can go wrong but your playing out a 2k pot in great shape.

I was really worried about you, not him. You were showing  2s 3s & it was clear you had the only Low hand, or draw. I wanted to flat, to keep you in, so we could proceed 3 way, & I was locked on for half.

It was a terrible blunder by me, as played, though as it happens, you don't fold anyway, & I get myself in a right 2 & 8.

If I only had £400 or £500 behind, or had not made a nice profit on the night, I just re-Pot when WC pots. All three players had plenty behind us, too, it was not like someone with a few hundred was pot-stuck.

Pretty embarrassing play on my part really.

Fantastic thread, can't wait to see more of this. I hate to be a tart, but could the boards be run out clearer at the end? It took me two mins to process everything, and seeing

TJ  X X Js 5s Tc
77 X X  3s 2s  6c

Ty so much guys! and wp

Tikay you're being harsh on yourself here I think calling when you make the Jack is a good play, 5th street comes and 77d catches a brick and WC is 100% going to pot into him to get his low hand out of the way, at which point you can pretty much stick the lot in - AND you get the extra £96, that would have been the dream scenario, as it happens 77d caught a scary card but he bet quite small and the other player with the worse trips i still in so you shoudl defo call again, now he's caught ANOTHER really scary card lol and you're fucked!

You just got a bit unlucky really 77d's board just ran out amazingly well nothing you can really do about that.

The point of the hand you played badly, imo was not folding the JJ9 initially but play on 4th, 5th and 6th street is very good imo.

Yeah you played the hand well TJ just a bad fold on 6th by you from my point of view.

Its easy for me to say raise the pot on 4th street and play a 2k pot with 3 cards to come but in the balance of the game and how he was playing flatting the 96 may well be the way to go. I can easily brick 5th street or maybe i have paired 4th street and im not even calling the £96

yh, I'm gonna think some more about your betsize on 5th street when you hit the ACE. I think that's almost the most interesting part of the hand :)

wp everyone imo (excpet TJ at the start :D )

TJ owned by TPAFKALD.

Was a fun session, really enjoyed myself.

Yes, fair point.

These Mixed Games have limited interest to most of the guys here, but if they generate chat, & improve our games, yeah, I would love to post more of them.

My house mate wants to improve in all these games and so do I, we both have decent h/l knowledge and 7 card limit/pot limit. I'm sure we'll try and contribute and if not we'll be here lapping it up :)

Ice cream alert...

If I'm stud8, I'd almost exclusively fold JJx, whichever way it comes, unless I have a low/ace up and I'm playing it as a bluff. Obv that's limit rather than pot limit, but it's largely because it's infrequently a good/well-disguised high and offers no low prospect.

So, what would be the justification for calling in TJ's spot? Short-handed? Tight rep? Pot limit offers greater room for bluffing/implied odds if you hit of either getting paid or getting others off their hand?

None of the above, it's the penultimate hand of the night  :D

Or dat

So i decided to bet £500 on 6th street i know i have 6 cards in my freeroll to hit for a monster scoop assuming nobody houses up, but they dont know that.

Im quite happy to see 2 folds and collect the pot thats in the middle right now. 2 calls and the pot is now huge and im gtd 50%

WC moves in for his remaining 705 and TJ tank folds. Not the result we wanted all we have to do now is hit and Ace or 4.

Last card we both brick and WC thinks he has lost the lot.

A little profit in the pot but great equity and a great spot.

Haven't got time to comment properly due to Xmas with family. But few quick comments:

1. Playing (JJ)9 at superstud is a huge money losing play..

2. Lil'Dave is right when he says I would usually choose the 3c as my upcard if I had a hand like Aspades 3c 5s. I believe the deception gained outweighs the potential increase in fold equity which we may get if we turn the 5s up and then make a four-flush by fifth street (with 3 spades showing). And also if we have the 3c showing we are more likely to be showing three of a suit by fifth street than if we turn over the 5s [this is what happens in the actual hand].

3. I believe that we should sometimes turn an A over as our upcard. This should be rare obviously, but we need to do it occasionally after we have raised pre-discard to 'protect ourself' for the times that we have rolled up Aces. Obviously we don't need to do this very often, but theoretically we should occasionally turn an Ace over when we don't have AAA.

4. OP played this hand well IMO, however:

5. OP should bet bigger on fifth street. Both rolled up hands would be forced to fold. And if they don't, we'll that's ok too since they are playing hope-for-the-best-poker.

6. Potting on 6th street is much better.

7. You say you have 6 outs to scoop vs trips. You actually only have four outs. Two of the 4s are gone. It is crucially important to pay attention to the dead cards.

8. We gain most when both hands fold... especially as our key card (the 4) for the scoop is half dead. That's why we should bet bigger on 5th (we are semi-bluffing obv), and that's why we should bet the max on 6th.

The call pre by TJ with JJ. (Complicated, 'innit?).

Yup, 100% agree, we don't play this hand in S-S.

However, I was in the Blinds, & afaic, it had not been raised. It MAY have been made £6 by someone, & then, as tradition dictates, called in 5 spots, if so, yes, I'd have slung £4 in to see one street. A SS hand lasts 5 minutes, so it was either pop outside for a ciggie, or chuck in £4.......

It is a horrendous SS hand of course, & like most costly mistakes in poker (& life) it starts with a lickle mistake & just gets worse from there on in.

Can't recall how much I did in the hand before eventually folding, but it was way too much, & was competely my own fault.

Think I'd played too long, & my concentration was failing.

Must say, I loved the way Jim played the hand.

So it's a case of do as I say; not as I do, then?

;)

Ice-cream response.

We played a LowBall hand last night.

I was in the Blinds, & my Up Card was 5d

Underneath, I had  Js Qh

So I hatched a cunning plan.

I decided to see what everyone's next card was, & proceed from there.

Bet, £10.

Called by all.

I drew a 6, or similar low.

Jim was showing (something like) 6-8 v my shown 5-6.

Lovely when a plan comes together.

Bet £50.

Snapped by Jim.

Next Street I draw another nice Low card, & Jim fails to improve much.

POT!

Most of my stack is now in the middle. AND JIM CALLS ALL-IN........

Whoops, you have proper got me here Jim, I have Q high.

Jim's reply?

Winning, I have K high.

He did, too.

Yup, 'fraid so.

It was completely my own fault, but there's always a reason for everything.

I have no issues with the JJ9 hand, you have to remember we are playing 500-600bb deep at this stage.

The guy making the raise was wild, ok he has a legit hand this time, but if brick 4th or 5th street then TJ takes the pot on HU and can scoop a monster pot.

Nah, honestly it is really bad to play such hands at Superstud. Even worse when very deep really. I am not exactly over the moon to actually HAVE rolled up big trips when very deep (small trips much different due to their deception value)... let alone a draw to big trips.

S-S falls in line with all other games, as long as you cam lay a hand down.

Id be more concerned playing bad low hands then high pairs set mining.

Well you shouldn't play raggy low draws either :)

I'm not going to try to convince you... if you want to play big pairs then fair enough. You will lose money in the long run doing so, but at least you won't have to sit out as many hands.

They'll give you your own TV show playing like that

Tommy Angelo wrote an article on the +ev of smoking. Obviously tongue in cheek. If you've never read his books tj I'll send you one for xmas, you'd get along so well

Just a quick thing on the 5th street betsizing;

When i read the HH first I thought on 5th I would have bet £275~ (i'm right in saying there is £350~ in the pot at this stage, and WC has £890 TJ has £1,300) my plan wouldbe to pot any spade or low card on 6th street, potentially chk/fold like the  Kd as exploitable as it is but the reason i would play bet bigger would be for more fold equity on 5th street and because simply i don't trust people to fold trips in this game (they should but people dont) so im effectively "buying my 6th street" and if get a good card the pot is set up nicely to just pot, again for maximum FE

However if we assume they're never fold then the smaller bet when we don't actually have a hand yet might have some merit, my only gripe with a pot betsize on 5th is that once WC has called a pot bet we can never make him fold on 6th+ as here is now too much money in there, maybe this will increase of FE significantly on 5th its worth sacrificing our 6th street FE, but let's not forget we have a very strong hand so if he calls GL to him :P

Don't forget also we have two ACES for a scoop as well.

It's been bothering me that I did not ever explain properly why playing a hand like (JJ)9 is such a terrible play. Tbh, this is the sort of thinking that I don't like giving away for free since it is hugely profitable for me that people play these sort of hands at Superstud (and what follows will also help Superstud players understand something very important about starting with big trips too). But I am going to explain it briefly just the one time...

First (and least important) is the fact that you are well over 20 to 1 against hitting a set on fourth street. This is not like a flop game where you see three cards at once and so have a much better chance of hitting a set before the second round of betting starts.

Now you could say "Well what about my implied odds? If I flop a set it will be concealed and I can win a massive pot!". Two problems with this. First, when you turn a 9 up it looks like you must have a set anyway... so hitting a concealed set of Jacks is not exactly deceptive. Second, and most important, making a set at Superstud does not have anywhere near the implied odds that you think it has. In fact, the opposite is often true and a set suffers from reverse implied odds. This is the KEY POINT, and I want to explain it further below.

To understand this properly I want you to think about a situation where you actually start with a rolled up hand like (JJ)J. As starting hands go, big trips are in a category of their own. In a sense they are 'premium hands' in the same way as 2s 3s 4s,   Ahrt 3h 5h or 3c 4c 5c (or even just 3d 4d 5c) are premium hands. However, big trips plays completely differently to all the other premium starting hands, especially when deep.

To see this you need to take a 'bird's eye view' of how these hands play out down the streets. All the other premium hands gain equity on every street. But trips lose equity down the streets. Sometimes their equity can decrease alarmingly quickly. Trips usually have dominating equity on 3rd street, but by 4th street are often flipping vs a low/high combo draw like (2h 3h) 4s 6h. And often by 5th street they end up in the terrible position of being free-rolled on by a low hand in a massive pot with plenty of money still to bet. In fact sometimes on 5th street trips is actually chasing for the high side too (i.e. when an opponent makes a low plus a straight or flush in 5 cards) - and this is clearly the worst possible position to be in.

This is the problem with playing big trips when the money is deep. Your equity decreases very quickly down the streets, and it is on the later streets when the bets becomes big. The fact that your hand is face up makes this even worse - your opponents should be able to play perfectly against you.

Now let's extrapolate from this why playing a hand like (JJ)9 is so bad. Basically you are drawing to trips. Which means that - at earliest - you will have trips by fourth street. However, as I have explained, even by fourth street the equity of trips has already declined massively vs the low-orientated hands (which will usually have at least a gutshot to go with them by 4th street if they choose to play a big pot). This means you are drawing to a hand that does not even have great equity when you hit it. Usually if a big pot is brewing you will - at best - have only 4th street as an opportunity to bet with (marginally) the best of it. If a big pot gets played on fifth, sixth and seventh streets then very, very often trips is in a lot of trouble and is being freerolled on.

So by drawing to trips you are playing to make a hand that has already lost the chance to make a wager with dominating equity (since you did not make your hand until after third street), but has plenty of chances to make future wagers with poor equity.

Thanks Stu, that all makes sense.

Surely, though, the same logic, only slightly less so (one street less), applies to a wire-up?

As it happens, hands like 3-3-3 can improve 2 ways - to a low, OR a boat, & maybe the wire-up itself will hold, though not often.

But what if we hold, say, J-J-J?

In my experience, what we generally do here is either get in a raising war if heads-up, OR we try to keep all the low drawing hands in, & hope they either miss their low, fail to improve, or we boat up, so we get either half of a 5 way pot, the lot, or.......nothing.

Assume we are mid-position, the game is laggy, the stacks are deep, & we have wired jacks.

We........?

brilliant stuff stu

@ Tikay

Yes, the same principles apply when we start with a rolled up hand. That's pretty much what I was saying tbh. Trips have great equity on third street (and sometimes fourth street) but on all the later streets they lose equity to the low hands. This is why big trips is not the amazing hand that most people think it is. I'm not saying you don't play these hands of course (rolled up trips that is... I have already made it clear we should not play hands like big pairs in the hole), I am just saying that you need to understand exactly how the equities work in order to play them well. Big trips plays really well with short/medium stack sizes - since you can get most of the money in early on.

Interestingly, if you were playing on a table full of very tough players then it is even possible that playing a hand like (JJ)J would be a money losing play when deep. Your hand would be face up and you would be destroyed by good players on the later streets. Fortunately we don't usually play on tables full of tough players. And against weaker players who will call on fourth when they catch a brick and will chase incorrectly with just low draws on fifth/sixth streets (and will rarely bluff us when they pair one of their holecards) then trips is a good money making hand obviously.

Of course small trips is a completely different animal. There are two reasons for this. First your hand is not face up since it looks like you are going low. Second, you have three blockers to someone with a low hand making a straight vs you.

yh, the players don't even need to be all that tough either imo - just good/brave enough to start piling money in when thier board looks good, but say you were playing with 5 other good superstud players, raise pre-3rd and turn a JACK over you can only win the pot with a good run-out really.

Going back to the actual hand, a few quick points:

1. Tikay should have potted fourth street over the £96 bet from the guy with presumed trips Tens. By doing this he has a fighting chance of getting it heads up vs a lower set. This would be a great spot for him. Even if one or both of the low hands call then Tikay will have put almost a third of his stack in on fourth street with some sort of equity edge and has an easy all-in on fifth regardless of what each player catches. Of course the trips Tens should realise he is losing to a luckily caught bigger set of trips, and should thus fold. But judging from his play in this hand he most likely will not do so.

2. The trips Tens has played his hand absolutely horribly. He should probably fold on sixth street, but if he is not going to fold even when the low hand catches such an unbelievable looking card then he should have just jammed it in on fifth street vs the low hand's weak lead. No Aces are showing on the board so it is semi-reasonable to hope that the low hand has paired the Ace on fifth and that is why he has made such a weak bet. Not saying this would be good play... just saying it is much better to jam it all in on fifth street than to get it all in on sixth when the low hand's board gets even stronger. (Obviously this is all based on the assumption that Tikay does not have a hidden set of Jacks, which of course he in fact does).

3. Just to reiterate my point from a few posts ago... the OP should have bet bigger on fifth street rather than making such a weak bet. The aim in such situations is to put opponents in difficult spots - and making such a tiny bet does not accomplish this, it just gives someone with trips a really easy stress-free call. Note that it is not necessary to bet the full pot on fifth street, but it IS necessary to bet around half pot. Thinking "I don't have the hand I am representing and I don't want to play for stacks, so I will make a block bet to get a cheap sixth street card" is the wrong way of thinking in this situation. You should be thinking, "Ha! My board is extremely scary and I have a chance to make my opponents fold their equity share in this big pot. I will make a bet that puts some real pressure on them. If one of them sets me in then it is a shame, but it is no big deal. I have decent equity in the coup. And also, it won't end well for them if they make a habit of such plays against boards like mine... This time I might not have a low or a flush yet, but often I will. So they would be committing suicide against my range by doing anything other than folding".

Have just run the hand and it looks like my biggest mistake is not raising myself when TJ flats the 96. I have 45% equity on 4th street and if I do raise at these stage all 4 stacks go in here.