blonde poker forum

I am curious about what people will think of this.

Playing a £100 FO at luton and go to war with a guy with 2x average for huge pot which easily puts one of us chip leader with 30 or so left.

On the river I call on a K6243r board for a big shove after 3betting pre, checking flop, betting turn and check calling river.

Guy quickly turns over 55 and I sigh NH and go to muck and leave my seat since he just has me covered.

He now says "I want to see your hand"

Now I understand that if I was the aggressor he has every right to see my hand if he calls. Is the same true for when I check call the river?

Would like peoples opinions, seems like a really nasty thing for him to do.

My actual response was "do you really have to do that mate?" he insists rather smugly and I quickly flip my hand over (k4) and leave

everybody at the table now know he is a classless prick, so I wouldn't bother about it.

It is a pretty dickish thing to do, I never ask, but I know some that would do it.  I would personally not give him the satisfaction of appearing annoyed, especially if I actually had 2 pair, if I was heroing off A high then I may be slightly less keen.

btw in some cardrooms eg Venetian you can refuse to show as a caller.

Learn how to accurately pitch your cards into the muck!

Muck quicker

You should have thrown your cards into the muck and said you had Aces. Nh mate wp

Throw your cards into the muck with a creative piroeutte from a great height. Wish the dealer "good day to you" with a cheery smile and walk off in the safe knowledge that poker karma will get the other guy at some point

Walk out the casino and forget all about it. Poker life is too short

Seeing as you've already busted from the mtt, he doesn't gain any information advantage. Seems pretty pointless. Guy is obv a huge douche imo. I wouldn't think too much of it tho, I always expect to see some OOL stuff when I play live these days...

is a dickish thing to do

Throw cards into muck like a speargun, even the greatest dealers with reactions like a fighter pilot can't stop you. Then leave and smile at him like the massive douche he is.

Next time flip over 75 and shout "in your eye".

like

In many card rooms the rules say that he has the right to see your cards. Obviously though, just because he has the right... it does not make it right.

This has been discussed many times. The purpose of this silly rule is to protect against potential collusion/chip dumping and such things (it is a silly rule because it does not work to do this, and creates a myriad of problems/bad feeling). Some players deliberately abuse the spirit of the rule because they want to gain information or perhaps because they want to needle an opponent. Either way, it is of course bad etiquette and classless behaviour. And obviously it is bad for the game in terms of creating a good atmosphere and nurturing the long-term health of poker etc.

You might think that how you react to this should depend on whether you believe your opponent knows he is wrong but is doing it anyway, or whether you think he just doesn't know better because noone has pointed it out to him yet. However, in reality you should react the same way regardless. What you should do is this:

Immediately table your cards. Do so with a smile on your face, without saying a word (other than perhaps "Sure, no problem"), and without displaying even the slightest hint of annoyance. Not even a subtly raised eyebrow or sigh, and certainly not any comment that would betray your digruntlement.

This is the most powerful way to deal with someone who is acting maliciously or through deliberate lack of etiquette. You refuse to even acknowledge the attack that he has made on you. It is the strongest possible reaction you can have in response to his actions. And it will be noticed by everyone at the table, including the villain.

And if the player genuinely does not know that what he has done is 'wrong' then why would you ever want to make him feel uncomfortable by making a comment, sighing, or whatever? He does not know better so it is not his fault until he is told otherwise.

You may often choose to speak to the player about this later on. Perhaps at the next break, but always at least five minutes after the incident has taken place. It is good for the long-term health of poker if players are helped to understand why such actions are bad. And they will often be receptive to your advice if you explain it in the right way: calmly, politely and with class. Those who do not listen or argue with you (or just don't care) are lost causes anyway, so just leave them be. Often someone will do this job for you at the table anyway, and say something to the villain about their actions. If this happens then you should keep out of it completely and not say a word. But listen to what is said, and if you think you can add anything to help villain understand then do so at a later time.

(I just realised you busted from the tournament on this hand, and what I have written above applies more if you are still at the table)

Try me

Unless it is in the house rules, requests to see the opponents cards is solely at the TD's discretion and only granted to protect the integrity of the game.

Technically, this was an All in situation so both hands should have been flipped.

These are TDA rules but im not sure which set of rules are used in Luton.

You called so why do you have to show??

I know sometimes they say you have to thus avoiding collusion but unless your name is Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler etc it's unlikely you would want share a cup of tea with such a prik never mind collude.

Got to be honest I saw a lot of this going on in a monkey comp at Genting Luton over Xmas - something in the water there?

;)

Tear the cards up and eat them imo

Great post. So so hard to do irl I find though.

Throw the 4 into the muck and the K right between his eyes imo. Then claim you had KK.

This hand has knocked you out so my advice is to get your coat and stuff together and leave the table. Things relevant to the game like cards and chips I would just leave where they are. I wouldn't say anything to the guy wanting to see cards. I wouldn't over analyse the situation or spend any time thinking about motives and behaviour. None of it matters on account that you are out.

Apart from when you meet him at the table again??

I just want to see that the game is played well and in a friendly manner. When people do this kind of thing is causes tension.

By all means I was pissed off but I did my best to remain composed. I said something along the lines of "do you really have to mate? It is rubbing it in a bit" and flipped my hand instantly once he insisted and got up and left.

I imagine a year or so ago I would have just told him to go fuck himself and thrown a big fit. But someone once mentioned on here that you can tell a lot about a players ability/mindset by how they cope in situations like this or how they react to bad beats. Thus I want to act accordingly

Very true

Instead of acting like you have that mindset surely it is better to just try and achieve it!

Well you should show becuSs you could be chip dumping.

But in reAlily fuck him and eat the cards.

Oh fold pre. !

can't tell you how long ive been waiting for that to come up....

He has a right to see your hand, why is it bad etiquette to try and educate themselves?

If you are chip dumping, the last person I'd expect to ask to see the hand would be the recipient of the dump....

That is certainly true. In fairness, Badbeats dont phase me. After millions of hands I have seen it all before yadda yadda.

Its the shitty things like this that grind my gears

(http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/da036c1e6016f54d00887907c82f6059/http://i549.photobucket.com/albums/ii375/Trueflame08/unsuccessful-troll.jpg)

A guy in my local game admitted to me on a drunk night out he only asked to see my hands to piss me off! It is easily the most tilting thing I've experienced.

Level 2 chip dumping tekkers

Or meta-chip dumping

TBH with the way I play they would snap assume I was chip dumping

I pick up the cards, walk around to the villain, put them over his head and say to the table, pointing to the items in turn:

FOUR
KING
PRICK

whenever anyone asks to see my hand in a spot where they prolly can i just insta show them it, then I just make a mental note to try level them next time.

I actually show my cards with added brow-furrowing before whingeing about the whole situation at the bar over a J20.

Hahahaha, good work.

I probably pull a grade A hurricane force Paddy and throw my cards so far into the much that they are lost for ever and throw my stack at him chip by chip.

Yes, acting classily and maintaining an aura of imperviousness can be difficult when you are at your most vulnerable having just lost a big pot. This is especially true when faced with unpleasant behaviour directed towards you, such as asking to see your losing hand or slowrolling you. The easiest way to achieve this is to genuinely not be bothered about such things. But pretending not to give a fuck is at least a first step on the road to actually not giving a fuck.

I am not perfect in this stuff either, and here is a story to illustrate my own weakness...

A few years ago I was playing in a £2/5 No Limit game. I was having a torrid losing session, at the end of a torrid losing week, at the end of a torrid losing month. And then I was dealt AA.

I won't bore you with all the action... suffice to say quite a lot of money went in the pot preflop, plenty more went into the pot on a 224 flop and then I jammed a Jack turn for £800. My opponent was a guy called Ken - an experienced recreational player, who was quite aware of the etiquette of the game. He thought for a little while, then asked me how much it was. I told him it was £800. He then asked the dealer for an exact count. The dealer counted it down and confirmed it was £800. Ken thought for another ten seconds, then started to slowly count out the £800 chips to call. It took him ages since he counted it all out in £5 chips. Finally he pushed his chips over the line, with a look of resignation on his face. I insta-tabled my AA before the river was dealt, since it was obviously winning at that moment. He nodded and tapped the table gently with a sad little look on his face. The river bricked off and he just sat there shaking his head. He looked back at his cards as if about to muck them - then slowly, one card at a time... turned over two Jacks for the nut full house.

In that instant I resolved not to say a word, nor to even acknowledge the vindictive slowroll that he had just inflicted on me. Every player on the table was looking at me, watching for my reaction - demanding a reaction in fact. They knew what had occurred, as did he. And I just ignored it completely, reloaded my stack, and refused to be seen to acknowledge what had happened. I folded the next two hands, then quietly left the table to go for a smoke. When I was having a smoke break I calmed myself down and resolved that I would go back in, not mention it, and not give off even the smallest clue that it had got to me in any way at all. So I sat back down, put a smile on my face, and just got on with it.

But the thing is... it had got to me. I was really pissed off with this guy, who was a regular player and definitely knew better. I felt attacked by him, and indeed I had been. So inside I was stewing a little bit, even if I was able to prevent any sign of this from coming out. It is actually a very empowering feeling to be able to give off an aura of "I don't care in the slightest" even when you do care. And I am proud to say that I managed to maintain this illusion...

... for about twenty minutes, at any rate.

Finally it got too much for me. I just couldn't help myself. I wasn't nasty or aggressive, and in fact all I said was something like, "Ken, what was with that big dwell on the turn in that hand before? Did you think I had quads or something?" No more than that. But that was all it took for me to lose, and for him - in a sense - to win.

When you are slowrolled, or needled like the OP was, you are placed in a situation in which almost any response you make will result in you losing. This means that the only response you can make is to give no response. Which is, in fact, the most powerful response of all.

Do this for long enough, and eventually you learn to really not give a fuck.

wow pretty gross...

The guy I mentioned doing it to me did it twice in one night, including once where I was tanking on the turn and told him what I had! I've never managed the complete lack of reaction but one day. Brutal story man.

HoneyBadger, if there was ever a time for a justice A ball on the river...

I dunno, in that eg not saying anything is kinda foreign behaviour to me. I would instantly ask villain why he's shaking his head with the winning hand. Forget being pissed off about the money I would be puzzled why he's shaking his head with the winning hand. Being openly bewildered and putting the guy on the spot about his weird behaviour isn't some weakness to hide imo. If every player at the table is looking and waiting well let's ask this guy for an explanation. We are reloading and nobody will like this behaviour so challenging is the right thing to do. Letting him out of an impossible situation by smiling politely isn't a win for us. I think a win for us is embarrassing the fock out of him with a series of polite inquisitive questions.

@ Mantis

I strongly believe that the vast majority of poker players would find it practically impossible to interact with the person who has acted so maliciously towards them without betraying the fact that they are upset by his actions. Maybe you are cool enough to do so, but I most definitely was not at that moment in time. In these sort of situations (and they occur with occasional regularity in live poker) it is better to maintain your dignity by not interacting with, or even acknowledging, the perpetrator. When someone acts in this way, any response whatsoever is a reward to them - because that is what they are seeking; a response. By denying them this response you punish them in a very powerful manner. You are showing that you do not even consider their behaviour to be worthy of your attention.

Tbh though, nowadays this sort of thing almost always just washes straight over me anyway. So I no longer have to pretend not to care, I genuinely don't care in the slightest. I have played poker with so many silly people over the years, and seen so much silly behaviour, that for the most part it does not even register in my consciousness any more. So when a similar thing happens to me again I may or may not be cool and unruffled enough that I could interact with the person immediately without either descending to his level or making an idiot of myself. But in truth, I will probably be so genuinely unbothered by the whole thing that I won't even consider it worthy of my attention. After all, it is only a conditioned response that makes us somehow feel hurt/upset when a person asks to see our losing cards or takes a long time to turn over his hand - there is no actual reason why this should bother us in the slightest. I have pretty much given up worrying myself about such things.

It is only when you have learned not to give a fuck about something that you realise it was not worth giving a fuck about in the first place.

I suggested ignoring villain in op example because hero was out and villain's dumb question is irrelevant to somebody who is out. Just blanking villain is empowering. But in your eg I don't agree ignorning is correct on account that we are continuing to play at the table and will be exposed to a continuation of this weird behaviour. His behaviour WOULD rankle me and other people and I don't see the weakness in highlighting that. If villain was coughing all over the table or constantly swearing in front of a woman or eating his greasy food and handling cards his behaviour would rankle me also. Wouldn't flip my shit or anything but wouldn't just bite my tongue and allow that to continue either.

this is the subtle beauty of a MANTIS post right here.

I think you really like the fact that this will go over 80% of people's heads but that little gem didn't get past me :)

I think its fair to say that in the aa/jj case, even if the victim didn't say anything, on the vast majority of tables somebody else would. I know I would.

Yeah I agree. Usually another player will say something. And it is definitely better if someone else says something rather than the person who has been the victim of the slowroll or rubdown.

When this sort of thing happens to me at the table, I rarely say anything. However, when someone does this to another player at the table I very often say something to the perpetrator. I do so calmly and politely, and usually the message gets through.

The one thing that does no good at all is if either the victim or an observer gets noticeably annoyed, angry or upset. It happened last week actually at DTD in a cash game. A guy asked to see someone else's losing hand, and another player at the table went off at him in a really angry fashion. The guy who had asked to see the losing hand genuinely did not know what he had done wrong and so was confused and felt under attack. Two minutes later I explained calmly to the guy why what he had done was considered 'bad etiquette' and he instantly understood without any problems.

Getting annoyed with someone achieves nothing. If they already know what they did was wrong, and so did it deliberately, then you are playing into their hands by getting angry/upset. And if they do not know that what they did was wrong then they don't deserve to face your anger since they acted through ignorance not malice.

@ Lil'Dave and Mantis... I didn't get the importance of that 'flip my shit' sentence in the slightest, and still don't. You guys obviously operate on a different level to me ;)

@HB, this was back when mantis was on a different soapbox at the end of last year. All forgotten about now, tho, ish.

I didnt forget it, never will.

Linkie please.

Edited to say: Oh was it the blonde advent calender thing?

Please, no.

Nobody can have any idea how much trouble it caused, it was kept mostly under wraps, but I'd rather that murky pot was not stirred again, please. 

Someone was 'flipping their shit' at Honeybadger on Friday.  It was fair enough though, as he was complimenting another player behind his back.  How rude is that?

Like very much.

I think hb is right but understand what mantis is saying. Post is clearly amazing!

How about the etiquette in turning your hand over in an all in before the river?

I flip mine as soon as it's ok to do so, whether it's 47off or AA but in the Iancredible £100 the other weekend my opponent craned his head around the dealer  to see my  Ahrt Qh before flipping his  Aspades Ac
I watched the board run out and let the dealer take the appropriate chips before asking, in a very polite voice. "Why the delay in turning your cards over?"

He couldn't see an issue and in truth I was more amused than affronted, but I did take some satisfaction when my KJ triumphed over his AK and another shorty's AQ a short while later.

He wasn't all in until the river, but you are correct as both hands should be flipped as its an All in and a Call situation.

Because some prick decided it would be a good idea to put a MASSIVE amount of slow rolling into one of the recent bond films. Just so anyone relatively new to poker things its a ok thing to do

Anyone done or been done by the le chiffre "oops"?

Just been reminded of the Nick Wealthall/Nick Abou Risk/Max Silver/Jamie Burland sketch from the UKIPT. Anyone got a link?

Only read OP, there is no option for flipping my hand and verbally abusing him

Defffffff this!

Having said that really like Honeybadger's posts ITT and that's how I want to behave.