Title: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 06, 2013, 10:31:15 PM obv fish limping in and reg iso'n
Thoughts? PokerStars Zoom Hand #93622706153: Hold'em No Limit ($2.50/$5.00) - 2013/02/06 23:16:36 CET [2013/02/06 17:16:36 ET] Table 'Lambda Velorum' 6-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: ExB1983 ($1003.37 in chips) Seat 2: pads1161 ($575.56 in chips) Seat 3: PrsLee ($1559.24 in chips) Seat 4: iznak ($175.77 in chips) Seat 5: lafumeta13 ($491.21 in chips) Seat 6: Claudjuh79 ($606.49 in chips) pads1161: posts small blind $2.50 PrsLee: posts big blind $5 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to pads1161 [Kc Qd] iznak: folds lafumeta13: calls $5 Claudjuh79: folds ExB1983: raises $15 to $20 pads1161: calls $17.50 PrsLee: folds lafumeta13: calls $15 *** FLOP *** [Qc 2c 2h] pads1161: checks lafumeta13: checks ExB1983: bets $40 pads1161: calls $40 lafumeta13: calls $40 *** TURN *** [Qc 2c 2h] [Kh] pads1161: checks lafumeta13: checks ExB1983: bets $136.65 pads1161: calls $136.65 lafumeta13: folds *** RIVER *** [Qc 2c 2h Kh] [8h] pads1161: ? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 07, 2013, 12:09:05 AM think this is super interesting btw.
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: jgcblack on February 07, 2013, 12:23:44 AM think this is super interesting btw. Can I ask what the thought/ plan was at each stage?? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: TL900 on February 07, 2013, 12:38:00 AM you think he ever folds better?
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Ironside on February 07, 2013, 12:59:49 AM you think he ever folds better? i am not sure he calls much worse either i think i check call and fml if he turns up with aces or full house Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: jgcblack on February 07, 2013, 01:19:32 AM you think he ever folds better? i am not sure he calls much worse either i think i check call and fml if he turns up with aces or full house It's so hard to work out what Pat thinks sometimes.. but to me.. this line looks pretty fos. So I'd be expecting to get looked up by Kx a lot... potentially worse. gameflow/ dynamics/ reads obv.. zoom doesn't mean readless all the time.. I don't like it as a bluff tho... why would we bluff? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Ironside on February 07, 2013, 02:01:39 AM this is zoom havent played it in a while but regs nut peddle only play big hands pre and they fold small pairs etc pre
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: TL900 on February 07, 2013, 07:47:35 AM Ii realise we can get called by worse. I was just wondering if Pat thought he ever gets him to fold AK
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: skolsuper on February 07, 2013, 07:50:55 AM think this is super interesting btw. Is it super interesting because of the missed 3bet pre or the missed flop check-raise? As played I would check river, let villain go for thin value or we might even induce a bluff, don't think there's much he would call a shove with that he wouldn't check back. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: jgcblack on February 07, 2013, 08:12:59 AM think this is super interesting btw. Is it super interesting because of the missed 3bet pre or the missed flop check-raise? As played I would check river, let villain go for thin value or we might even induce a bluff, don't think there's much he would call a shove with that he wouldn't check back. This seems really logical, linear, sensible thinking... How does your view change if your the villain in the hand and you see this massive donk i Riverbet, what would be your calling range? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: SuuPRlim on February 07, 2013, 12:13:11 PM Yh 3betting seems better than calling preflop, but then i guess we freeze the weaker player out of the pot and iso ourselves OOP against the reg, I imagine he's iso'ing a range that KQ (even ofsuit) is doing pretty well against so i guess calling might be better actually :P
I guess options are to chk/call or lead, cant see chk/folding being viable at all. Don't really know, I think he's going to Vbet worse and bluff sometimes so ... check call? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 07, 2013, 12:53:52 PM Either 3betting or flatting is fine preflop. Flatting keeps the presumed weak player in the pot which is good. On the other hand offsuit broadways don't play especially great multiway which is an argument for 3betting. Doesn't really matter either way in the end IMO.
Everything seems good up to the river. I like the c/c flop c/c turn line, since it is consistent with the plan of keeping the weak player in the pot. Even though the weak player has folded the turn, I'd still check-call now rather than getting clever and donking (which I presume is what you are thinking about?). It maximises against his bluffs etc. If he checks back with AK/KJ/KT/AQ then sigh, but these are the only realistic value hands that he can have that you beat.... and he might go for thin value with some of these anyway once you check. It's not like you are smashing his range if he decides to put more money in the pot on the river since he has plenty of hands that beat you - especially with the BDFD having arrived, assuming he is randomising his turn barrels through equity. Therefore I'd prefer to keep as many bluffs in his range as possible. It is not exactly a wonderful spot once he bets the river though, since actually you merely have a top of the range bluff catcher (top of the range because you DO beat some of his value hands provided he value bets fairly aggressively). Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 07, 2013, 01:02:29 PM Wow, I think 3betting is bad and calling is absolutely the only option, not only do we do v good vs the fish range, but the reg will be iso raising really wide here so we do well too, + hand plays well in a multi way pot.
On the paired board and vs turn sizing, I think I look ridicuously strong actually, so don't see us getting barrelled on the river as a bluff very often. It's weird because people I've spoken too, have said such a variety of different responses. - shove river as bluff - shove river as value - c/f river Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: outragous76 on February 07, 2013, 01:14:07 PM if you have a specific read that it could be an ISO, then 3b IP playing zoom is fine. 3b OOP would be bad
Shoving river is lovely in this spot as the missed clubs gives him reason to call ALL his 1 pair hands. I mean its fairly cold if he wakes up with the 1 pair that beats you. The other option of course is letting him continue to barrell (if you believe he will), and snapping him off. The problem with readless games like zoom is you have no real reason to go with either of the above, and therefore its a feel thing on timing, any reads stats you might have. My personal line here is shove for value and if he has AA god bless him. The only reason I dont like shove for value is we arent letting him bluff off his missed draw range which could be huge on this texture board with his ISo range pre (TJ any cc type hands) Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 07, 2013, 01:23:13 PM Wow, I think 3betting is bad and calling is absolutely the only option, not only do we do v good vs the fish range, but the reg will be iso raising really wide here so we do well too, + hand plays well in a multi way pot. I personally don't think KQo plays all that well in a MW pot, but whatever... flatting keeps the weak player in the hand which is great. On the paired board and vs turn sizing, I think I look ridicuously strong actually, so don't see us getting barrelled on the river as a bluff very often. It's weird because people I've spoken too, have said such a variety of different responses. - shove river as bluff - shove river as value - c/f river If your gameflow read is that he is not bluffing the river much at all (since you look so strong), and rarely value betting worse, then it is a simple check-fold, right? Despite you looking strong, it is not a great spot to try to fold out better since the only hand you might realistically be able to bluff out is specifically AA, and this forms such a small subset of the hands that beat you... If your read on his read (if that makes sense) is correct then check and expect it to be checked back with you winning a very large amount of the time. All this is based on your assumption that you look insanely strong after your turn call. If that is not true then things change... Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: skolsuper on February 07, 2013, 02:06:41 PM Pre, if it had gone reg open, fish flat then call > 3b, but vs fish limp, reg iso 3b >> call AINEC, can explain why when I'm not on phone, or stu will probably be able to figure out what I mean. Basically you have to act before the fish if the reg cbets the flop, which has implications both in turning your hand face up to the reg most of the time and making the fish's play correct by giving him schooling odds. In this hand he probably played perfectly after the limp.
Shoving river as a bluff is genuinely absurd and I don't know why it's even being mentioned, unless I misread the board. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 07, 2013, 02:31:41 PM Pre, if it had gone reg open, fish flat then call > 3b, but vs fish limp, reg iso 3b >> call AINEC, can explain why when I'm not on phone, or stu will probably be able to figure out what I mean. Basically you have to act before the fish if the reg cbets the flop, which has implications both in turning your hand face up to the reg most of the time and making the fish's play correct by giving him schooling odds. In this hand he probably played perfectly after the limp. Yeah, I get it ofc. I don't completely agree with you, however. Mainly the bit I disagree about is the 'AINEC' part. I believe this sort of preflop spot (and it is a spot which comes up all the time obv) is pretty close, and can be played either way. I agree with your reasoning and I personally prefer to 3bet KQ offsuit (I would often flat if it was suited), but it is still profitable to flat and there is never going to be that much in it. For example, if the limper was a SUPER WEAK PLAYER who makes huge postflop errors then flatting would definitely be best since you want to do everything possible to ensure he is in the pot. It doesn't matter that you are allowing him to make a 'correct' over-call after you flat if he will make massive mistakes after the flop. Shoving river as a bluff is genuinely absurd and I don't know why it's even being mentioned, unless I misread the board. I completely agree, and have already given my reasons for so doing.Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 07, 2013, 02:34:06 PM I understand James. We do have the option of taking initiative. I.E if the turn was not a King, I would donk the turn close to 100% of the time.
If we want to have a calling range here (obv we do) then I think protecting it w/ KQ/AQ seems like a good strategy, especially as they will heavily dominate the fishes range. I would actually flat JJ here close to 100% and most likely QQ, so my value range is pretty thin, so don't need to have that many 3bet bluffs to be balanced, so I'd rather 3b bluff KJo and flat KQo. Regarding shoving the river as a bluff being absurd. Lets just try to make some assumptions: - he doesn't have much 2x in his range - he won't value bet KJ - he won't bluff vs my overcall on the turn So the hands that we want to be concerned about would be KK/QQ/AA, we of course have blockers to KK/QQ and also have blockers to Kxcc that would perhaps barrel the turn. On the river I think we should try to make our decision based on those 3 hands, i.e c/fing being a definitely viable option. If you want to c/call the river, then perhaps shoving the river >> calling the river because we can fold out AA. (If I had switcherood the hand, I'm pretty sure most people would find a fold) I actually think: c/f >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shove> call Although, I'm still very uncertain, and could be totally wrong in my assumptions. I also think flop could/should be a lead as well, turn is close, but I expect to get doublled enough by the reg to make it a profitable c/call on the turn, as I previously said, If it was anything but an A/K I would have donked the turn fo sho. From a friend on a different forum, he wrote up a detailed POV on the hand [spoiler] Quote Originally posted by Desultory My opinion: Recreational limper utg+1 might not be completely airy. it could be a range of any suited type hands, or a tighter range like sc's, low pockets type stuff. Assuming ExB is a standard reg, ExB will likely be isolating with his normal button range. I think KQo is a call pre 100% here to keep recreational player in and we dominated buttons range. Donking(leading) flop is possible and I will donk completely dependant on button cbet range. If its like 75%+ then its more likely a check to get value from complete air betting on a dry board. If its <60% cbet then a donk is better so you don't lose a bet on a street when your miles ahead vs both ranges. In between those ranges is debatable and you can basically mix plays depending on how you feel at the time, whether you look loose at the table or not etc. (bet the looser you look obv) After checking and facing the bet from button, if the recreational player is wider with his limps as mentioned above then I think raising is fine. In this scenario I think recreational players cold calls raise with TP+ and fd's and his range is about 1/3 pocket pairs that probably fold to raise and therefore you lose a bet by raising but 2/3 range gain from raising. BUT if recreational player is less wide, then majority/entiity of his range will be pocket pairs so calling is better. Button will have air most of the time but you still dominate him when he calls raise as well. After calling and hitting turn. I think checking makes more sense button will barrel draws expecting many folds from midpocks. Vs really really unbarrely regs who check back draws; leading turn could be better as you get another bet in vs recreational players Qx hands and flush draws again dependnt on recreational players initial range. You can checkraise this turn as well. If you are not a raisy type of guy then calling is better as he will expect you to have KQ everytime with the occasional JcTc when you raise, but if you have aggro stats raising to get value from his Top pairs that will call turn is probably better. At this point I'm semi ignoring the recreational player who may come along with a raise as well with his flop flush draw and maybe not call another bet on turn with most of his queens facing a bet and call. It depends how bad he is. At 500NL i think some rec players are good enough to fold Q here. The worse he is, the more I'm inclined to call again. The more barrely the button is the more you should call. 8hearts is an ok hand to barrel and try to get you off QJ and AQ possibly. But I think most players give up on their bluffs here. Therefore you may be facing a bet from purely a value range. If he is barrely, check call, because barrely players don't think @he might not have AQ here and therefore i'm not folding much out', they just barrel because they dont think and the faster the games are the less people think. If he isn't barrely, leading river allows you to possibly rep quite a lot of missed flop flush draws, and button has more TP's than rivered flushes. He is nearly always checking back top pairs. I think leading river is better as played. I think check raising river is not great unless you have history with the guy and he thinks you are super aggro. ************************* "Thoughts on his river reaction vs a bet? (I wish I had switcherood it ) I've spoken to some very good players about this hand. I've heard." - Will fold AA vs river bet [I VERY MUCH DOUBT THIS UNLESS YOU ARE SUPER NITTY AND TIGHT PSOT FLOP? PLAYERS STRUGGLE FOLDING ANYTHING ESPECIALLY AA, WHEN YOU POTENTIALLY CAN HAVE MISSED FLOP FD's] - Will call AQ vs river bet [YEP, DEFINITELY POSSIBLE] - Will call AK ott vs c/jam [POSSIBLE, ESPECIALLY THE HIGHER THE LIMITS, BUT BOTH OF YOU WILL NEED HISTORY FOR THIS TO BE LIKELY. HE WILL HAVE TO EXPECT YOU TO BE VERY CALLY AND VERY AGGRO] - Will call all Kx vs river bet. [DEFINITELY POSSIBLE] [/spoiler] Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Ironside on February 07, 2013, 03:05:58 PM Ii realise we can get called by worse. I was just wondering if Pat thought he ever gets him to fold AK he wants the call from AK about the only hand he could get value from Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: buffyslayer1 on February 07, 2013, 03:26:20 PM I didn't read all the replies yet just OP so apolgies if this had been covered
Did you think about leading turn with 2 flush draws out there and the fish in the pot? I like jamming river for thin value fwiw maybe AK/AQ call due to all the FD missing Also forgot to add I think donking flop could be most optimal 3 way OOP with fish in the pot Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: SuuPRlim on February 07, 2013, 05:23:02 PM Shoving river as a bluff is genuinely absurd and I don't know why it's even being mentioned, unless I misread the board. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: SuuPRlim on February 07, 2013, 05:28:01 PM this should just go check check and you win most of the time right?
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Ironside on February 07, 2013, 06:10:09 PM this should just go check check and you win most of the time right? in zoom i dont think we win this more than 25-33% of time only hand we beat is AK Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 07, 2013, 06:24:03 PM this should just go check check and you win most of the time right? in zoom i dont think we win this more than 25-33% of time only hand we beat is AK Hmmm... even if this is true, AK still composes a fairly large part of his value range for barrelling the turn. However, I don't think it is true really. Villain has KJ, KT (and likely AQ) in his value betting range on the turn (sizing notwithstanding). Plus he also has a plethora of draws which he will barrel at least some of the time despite it being threeway on the turn. IMO it will go ch-ch on the river a lot and KQ will win most of those times. This is based on Pleno's read that his range will be interpreted as super strong once he calls on the turn and thus villain will give up with pretty much all his missed draws. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Ironside on February 07, 2013, 06:36:12 PM this should just go check check and you win most of the time right? in zoom i dont think we win this more than 25-33% of time only hand we beat is AK[/i] Hmmm... even if this is true, AK still composes a fairly large part of his value range for barrelling the turn. However, I don't think it is true really. Villain has KJ, KT (and likely AQ) in his value betting range on the turn (sizing notwithstanding). Plus he also has a plethora of draws which he will barrel at least some of the time despite it being threeway on the turn. IMO it will go ch-ch on the river a lot and KQ will win most of those times. This is based on Pleno's read that his range will be interpreted as super strong once he calls on the turn and thus villain will give up with pretty much all his missed draws. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 07, 2013, 06:36:52 PM If we want to have a calling range here (obv we do) then I think protecting it w/ KQ/AQ seems like a good strategy, especially as they will heavily dominate the fishes range. I would actually flat JJ here close to 100% and most likely QQ, so my value range is pretty thin, so don't need to have that many 3bet bluffs to be balanced, so I'd rather 3b bluff KJo and flat KQo. This is very good logic Patrick IMO. There is also a very good argument for simply not having a 3betting range in this sort of spot, especially if the limper is a very weak player. Only point to note is that if you are 3betting AA, KK and AK then you need more than just the 12 combos of KJo in your bluffing range to balance. However, you can of course choose stuff other than KQo to do this with. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Mondeoman on February 07, 2013, 09:42:04 PM Agree with Keys that jamming river as a bluff is absurd - you'd be trying to bluff out one specific hand AA - which villain is not guaranteed to fold.
I think how you've played it up til the river is pretty standard. Because of the fish in the hand by the time you get to the river it should be kind of obvious to villain that you have a pretty strong hand. The problem with donk shoving river is a semi decent player should not call you with worse - you look super strong when you shove and in my mind you don't rep any missed draws. I think if you check he will check back loads - including ak some of the time. So villain dependent i'm check calling or check folding, versus most regs its prob a fold. Other option is lead the river but don't shove - if you give villain a good price he may flick it in with whatever he has or convince himself you are value betting a weaker hand. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 07, 2013, 11:08:14 PM Thanks for post.
One of the questions I proposed on the other forum was a smaller river bet, also think its interesting. I know I'm dragging the thread a little bit but how do we play qq And ajcc Otr? I also think flop/turn is standard, although donking turn is definitely the best option on blanks and dosing vs aggression from either opponent. I also agree its a c/f Otr. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: skolsuper on February 08, 2013, 02:05:59 AM Yeah, I get it ofc. I don't completely agree with you, however. Mainly the bit I disagree about is the 'AINEC' part. I believe this sort of preflop spot (and it is a spot which comes up all the time obv) is pretty close, and can be played either way. I agree with your reasoning and I personally prefer to 3bet KQ offsuit (I would often flat if it was suited), but it is still profitable to flat and there is never going to be that much in it. For example, if the limper was a SUPER WEAK PLAYER who makes huge postflop errors then flatting would definitely be best since you want to do everything possible to ensure he is in the pot. It doesn't matter that you are allowing him to make a 'correct' over-call after you flat if he will make massive mistakes after the flop. I understand James. We do have the option of taking initiative. I.E if the turn was not a King, I would donk the turn close to 100% of the time. If we want to have a calling range here (obv we do) then I think protecting it w/ KQ/AQ seems like a good strategy, especially as they will heavily dominate the fishes range. I would actually flat JJ here close to 100% and most likely QQ, so my value range is pretty thin, so don't need to have that many 3bet bluffs to be balanced, so I'd rather 3b bluff KJo and flat KQo. I'm not 3b bluffing KQo, I think vs a button range of 35%+ we have a v profitable and GTO 3b/5b semi-bluff (so the 3b is for the 'value' from the 5b) and we're abso loving life when we get flatted, we're just printing money in that situation. Conversely, when the 2 players are the other way around, a 3bet with the fish already having $20 in the pot looks much stronger, so the reg will just fold much more often to the 3bet and 4b or call much less often, so we would be bluffing KQo there, which I agree would be a waste of a v profitable calling hand. That said, I also think a call here is less/not profitable vs the limp-iso configuration, because of how the fish will react and how it defines your range to the reg. Versus the fish, I personally don't think he's going to make all that many "massive mistakes after the flop", it's actually going to be pretty hard for us to get in a big pot with the fish unless we cooler him. His penchant for passive play (yay alliteration) will serve him well in this spot vs your and the button's range with the button having initiative. Versus the reg, I don't think you ought to be thinking about balancing the rest of your range with the KQo, but more about how you can balance for the KQ, because it's going to be a huge part of your perceived range imo. This is why you're trying to think up funky lines for the river, because you know your hand looks exactly like what it is when you c/c flop and turn. What else is the villain going to put you on? On the flop you look like KQ AQ QJ JJ TT 99 etc, on the turn pretty much exactly KQ QJ AQ. Meanwhile villain's range is wide and uncapped. This information disparity is why your thinking is all over the place on the river. Personally I think the villain will be able to shove the river with his entire range profitably, since the pot has already gotten so big (we have 2/3-3/4 PSB left on the river?) he only needs folds 40-43% of the time with his bluffs, and our range is mostly AQ KQ QJ of which he's got to imagine we're folding the Qx; he knows he doesn't have that many bluffs in his range after the turn action, yet still has a ton of viable value hands. However, we don't know how often he is actually going to bluff IRL so calling could be terrible or folding could be terrible, we're essentially just playing a guessing game. You could avoid this situation by mixing it up and stealing initiative early on, but I personally think a strategy that includes donking mid-strength hands in multi-way pots is going to be sub-optimal and v hard to play. The reg will sometimes assume you're married to the hand and thus fold everything non-nutted, so you're turning your hand into a bluff, but at the same time some villains will think this looks FOS, and it's impossible to know which way the reg leans in these spots without thousands of hands on them, and so you're back playing guessing games again. Just 3b pre, it's gonna be super profitable even if villain plays GTO, which he probably won't, and you can mop up the fish value another time. In a way, you're doing it here, because the fish has indirectly caused this super-profitable spot, but this way you protect the fish from losing all that EV to the reg and thus improve your future equity too. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: cambridgealex on February 08, 2013, 11:59:03 AM Sick good post ^
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 08, 2013, 12:48:38 PM James, your last post ITT is completely brilliant. I loved two parts in particular:
I'm not 3b bluffing KQo, I think vs a button range of 35%+ we have a v profitable and GTO 3b/5b semi-bluff (so the 3b is for the 'value' from the 5b) The explanation that the 3bet is for 'value' since you are intending to 5bet semi-bluff... I have never seen it phrased in that way before. Brilliant.... and you can mop up the fish value another time. In a way, you're doing it here, because the fish has indirectly caused this super-profitable spot, but this way you protect the fish from losing all that EV to the reg and thus improve your future equity too. This is a really deep insight, and I love this way of thinking about poker... seeing it from a bird's eye view etc. Love the idea that you in some ways are getting value from the limper since his limp caused this spot to exist. Also love the idea that you are 'protecting' him. Both these points are counterbalancing arguments to the suggestion that we should play in ways that keep weak players in the pot, rather than force them out.That said, I still don't 100% agree with you in a couple of things (no big deal, just different philosophies I reckon). I believe you are over-stating the case a little, and that the EV of flatting is not TOO different to the EV of 3betting. I almost always 3bet in this spot personally and your analysis has helped me understand more clearly exactly why I am doing this. But I certainly don't think it is a losing play to flat here. And sometimes it might be the clearly best play if the limper is a VERY weak player and thus you should be doing everything possible to keep him in the pot. It does not matter so much if your hand sometimes becomes face-up to the other reg if the presence of the limper in the pot makes this a 'protected pot'. I agree that in the hand in question it has partly worked out that way, but this won't always be the case. I guess what I am saying is that often 'correct' (i.e. GTO) play vs the regulars can be ignored in order to satisfy more pragmatic requirements such as trying to win the easy money from the bad players. The other thing I disagree on from a practical point of view is the distinction you make between 3betting an iso after a weak player has limped, and 3betting after a reg has opened and a weak player has call the raise. Tbh, the second situation (reg opens, weak player calls) is actually an amazing spot to have a HEAVILY EXTENDED value range, which may include hands like KQo. You are indeed 'bluffing' against the reg, but not vs the weak player. The nut result is that the reg folds and then the weak player calls. Obviously this is mainly something you do when in position though. Despite some small disagreements, I really enjoyed reading your excellent post. It clarified certain points in my mind, and made me think about a couple of things in a different way. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Mondeoman on February 08, 2013, 02:28:09 PM James, your last post ITT is completely brilliant. I loved two parts in particular: I'm not 3b bluffing KQo, I think vs a button range of 35%+ we have a v profitable and GTO 3b/5b semi-bluff (so the 3b is for the 'value' from the 5b) The explanation that the 3bet is for 'value' since you are intending to 5bet semi-bluff... I have never seen it phrased in that way before. Brilliant.... and you can mop up the fish value another time. In a way, you're doing it here, because the fish has indirectly caused this super-profitable spot, but this way you protect the fish from losing all that EV to the reg and thus improve your future equity too. This is a really deep insight, and I love this way of thinking about poker... seeing it from a bird's eye view etc. Love the idea that you in some ways are getting value from the limper since his limp caused this spot to exist. Also love the idea that you are 'protecting' him. Both these points are counterbalancing arguments to the suggestion that we should play in ways that keep weak players in the pot, rather than force them out.That said, I still don't 100% agree with you in a couple of things (no big deal, just different philosophies I reckon). I believe you are over-stating the case a little, and that the EV of flatting is not TOO different to the EV of 3betting. I almost always 3bet in this spot personally and your analysis has helped me understand more clearly exactly why I am doing this. But I certainly don't think it is a losing play to flat here. And sometimes it might be the clearly best play if the limper is a VERY weak player and thus you should be doing everything possible to keep him in the pot. It does not matter so much if your hand sometimes becomes face-up to the other reg if the presence of the limper in the pot makes this a 'protected pot'. I agree that in the hand in question it has partly worked out that way, but this won't always be the case. I guess what I am saying is that often 'correct' (i.e. GTO) play vs the regulars can be ignored in order to satisfy more pragmatic requirements such as trying to win the easy money from the bad players. The other thing I disagree on from a practical point of view is the distinction you make between 3betting an iso after a weak player has limped, and 3betting after a reg has opened and a weak player has call the raise. Tbh, the second situation (reg opens, weak player calls) is actually an amazing spot to have a HEAVILY EXTENDED value range, which may include hands like KQo. You are indeed 'bluffing' against the reg, but not vs the weak player. The nut result is that the reg folds and then the weak player calls. Obviously this is mainly something you do when in position though. Despite some small disagreements, I really enjoyed reading your excellent post. It clarified certain points in my mind, and made me think about a couple of things in a different way. hmmmm so you've protected the fish from losing chips to the reg in this hand - now this is zoom the table breaks and you prob wont see the fish again Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Mondeoman on February 08, 2013, 02:38:27 PM Also KQ off plays pretty bad if you get it in pre - 65s has more equity versus a reasonable 4 bet call range of 99+, AQ+
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: EvilPie on February 08, 2013, 02:46:11 PM Loving some of the analysis in this thread and I'm finding it really interesting despite it being a few levels above my normal thinking.
One question for you guys: How far can you push this sort of thing in the limited time available to make your decision in an online cash game? In particular Keys' point about the 3b to set up the 5b semi bluff. Would you have time to come up with that plan in game? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: outragous76 on February 08, 2013, 02:48:04 PM Loving some of the analysis in this thread and I'm finding it really interesting despite it being a few levels above my normal thinking. One question for you guys: How far can you push this sort of thing in the limited time available to make your decision in an online cash game? In particular Keys' point about the 3b to set up the 5b semi bluff. Would you have time to come up with that plan in game? I echo Matts thinking, and the other thing I would raise, what if the villains arent thinking like this (which Id say 99.9% arent) - are we not levelling ourselves sometimes? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: skolsuper on February 08, 2013, 03:13:43 PM This is 500 zoom, there are like 30 players, and reg villain will be 4betting light, although he doesn't need to for our 3/5 to be GTO
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: outragous76 on February 08, 2013, 04:04:14 PM This is 500 zoom, there are like 30 players, and reg villain will be 4betting light, although he doesn't need to for our 3/5 to be GTO In which case, we should probably have better reads on villains, and no way his range is just AA like many Zoomers? (Just throwing it out there, not trying to be confrontational) Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2013, 05:00:22 PM Nice discussion guys.
I mentioned previously in the thread, my strategy here is to basically not have a wide 3betting range for value (IE I'm flatting QQ pre, and defintiely JJ) so can't go ahead and have a super wide 4betting range. One thing that I disagree with James is that we dont have QJ type of hands in our perceived range by the river. We should/would definitely fold these on the turn, even with the potential overlay vs the fish with the weaker hands, however his weaker hands aren't even thast weak as he is now defintiely folding 33-1010 and we don't dominate any Queens any more as QQ22K so kicker doesn't player. All Qx that we do continue to the river with is Qxhh hands that now beat most of villains range, so disagree with the assumption that he can make a profitable 3rd barrel. James, your last post ITT is completely brilliant. I loved two parts in particular: I'm not 3b bluffing KQo, I think vs a button range of 35%+ we have a v profitable and GTO 3b/5b semi-bluff (so the 3b is for the 'value' from the 5b) The explanation that the 3bet is for 'value' since you are intending to 5bet semi-bluff... I have never seen it phrased in that way before. Brilliant.Maybe I'm not reading this right, don't get me wrong, I loved James post, but the point that you picked out seems like a very standard theory, its just a merged 3bet value/bluff. AJs I think would be another hand that would fit in this category, although KQ potentially plays better. Lets try and give villain a defending range here, as its very important before we make assumptions that we can "print" vs the range: Equity Win Tie MP2 45.21% 43.01% 2.20% KQo MP3 54.79% 52.59% 2.20% QQ-99, AQs-ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo I'd say this is quite a solid range, lets now add some combos of AA/KK/AK that flat the 3bet, good regulars definitely should be doing this, so gave a realistic range. Equity Win Tie MP2 42.32% 40.32% 2.00% KQo MP3 57.68% 55.68% 2.00% QQ-99, AdAs, KhKc, AQs-ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AdKd, AsKs, AQo, AdKh, AdKs, AdKc, AsKd Now lets give him one or two more speculative hands, just to get to a probable range in terms of equity. Equity Win Tie MP2 44.27% 42.45% 1.83% KQo MP3 55.73% 53.90% 1.83% QQ-99, AdAc, KhKc, AQs-ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AdKd, AsKs, AQo, AdKh, AdKs, AdKc, AsKd Now, I know that we have initiative which is important, however he will have position and will have an equally eprceived strong range, in fact, even against our perceived strong range his hand still plays well. I just don't think its an euto 3bet for value spot where villain will be defending a bunch of Q7s kind of flairy hands and will actually be very strong, and in reality, I don't need many 3bet bluffs as my 3bet PURE (not merged) value range is very narrow and thus would prefer to protect my calling range with KQo and 3bet/fold K9o or even KJo, which could also fall into my calling range too. @matt/guy, I basically know my range vs every opponent, every positon vs any plan (pre flop) however limping isn't in my charts that I've worked on so I was a bit through off, and because its not so normal anymore, it's something we all disagree on. @James, theres actualyl reguarly 150+ regs in the 500nl games on Stars, this was peak time too. I'll just randomly now..... Yeah there is 95 people at 4.50 on a Friday, so traffic is a lot better now than when there was 10-30 of the best 1knl regs trying to fill screen space and grind vpps. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 08, 2013, 05:42:04 PM @ Pleno
Yes I know it is a standard 3b/5b spot and I know the theory behind this etc. I was just meaning that I really liked the exact way James had described it. @ Keith I just liked the whole concept of protecting the weak player, regardless of whether it is applicable in zoom (although it sort of still is in some ways). Also, it is the blocker effects of KQ that make it a good candidate to 5bet, not its equity against a calling range, as you well know. Blocker effects become much more important vs narrower ranges, such as vs a reg's 4betting range. @Matt These sort of spots come up all the time and you don't have to work them out in game because you have done the maths and range construction at home. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: mondatoo on February 08, 2013, 05:59:33 PM @ Pleno Yes I know it is a standard 3b/5b spot and I know the theory behind this etc. I was just meaning that I really liked the exact way James had described it. @ Keith I just liked the whole concept of protecting the weak player, regardless of whether it is applicable in zoom (although it sort of still is in some ways). Also, it is the blocker effects of KQ that make it a good candidate to 5bet, not its equity against a calling range, as you well know. Blocker effects become much more important vs narrower ranges, such as vs a reg's 4betting range. @Matt These sort of spots come up all the time and you don't have to work them out in game because you have done the maths and range construction at home. You make some great posts but your read here is way off. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 08, 2013, 09:34:00 PM Why?
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: mondatoo on February 08, 2013, 09:35:57 PM Why? Pretty sure Matt isn't spending his time at home doing that. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: Honeybadger on February 08, 2013, 09:43:07 PM Lol. I clearly used the wrong personal pronoun. Should have used 'one', or perhaps the royal 'we'.
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: paulhouk03 on February 08, 2013, 09:43:23 PM What's gto mean?
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: mondatoo on February 08, 2013, 09:45:00 PM Lol. I clearly used the wrong personal pronoun. Should have used 'one', or perhaps the royal 'we'. :P Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: buffyslayer1 on February 09, 2013, 12:10:32 AM Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: skolsuper on February 09, 2013, 03:20:46 AM Now lets give him one or two more speculative hands, just to get to a probable range in terms of equity. Equity Win Tie MP2 44.27% 42.45% 1.83% KQo MP3 55.73% 53.90% 1.83% QQ-99, AdAc, KhKc, AQs-ATs, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, AdKd, AsKs, AQo, AdKh, AdKs, AdKc, AsKd Now, I know that we have initiative which is important, however he will have position and will have an equally eprceived strong range, in fact, even against our perceived strong range his hand still plays well. I just don't think its an euto 3bet for value spot where villain will be defending a bunch of Q7s kind of flairy hands and will actually be very strong, and in reality, I don't need many 3bet bluffs as my 3bet PURE (not merged) value range is very narrow and thus would prefer to protect my calling range with KQo and 3bet/fold K9o or even KJo, which could also fall into my calling range too. Yeah if this is the guy's range then absolutely we should be flatting KQ pre. We should only be 3betting the bottom 90% or so of hands that we can't profitably peel, since he will be folding to a 3bet >80% of the time. It's not realistic at all. Maybe it's a style thing, but I don't understand why you want to have a wide peeling range preflop. What happened to "POSITION + INITIATIVE = PROFIT"? Yeah there's a weak player there, but you were drilling that golden rule into jcgblack when he was playing 10nl and they're ALL weak players. I'll just be repeating myself if I talk more about preflop, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: PutYouOnAK/AQ on February 09, 2013, 08:40:52 AM some awesome analysis on here. how wide do regs iso fish on zoom pleno? really depends on that for my river decision. vs pleno in this hand if i was villain i would defo vbet/merge qx here and defo any k so i like c/c. buuuut heard zoom is uber tight, pleno is this true or.......?
Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: pleno1 on February 09, 2013, 10:44:27 AM @james
Initiative can be directly taking by having the option to donk flop when fish is in pot so not having initiative is not completely necessary here. Ie ott I was planning to donk 90% of turns therefore retaking the initiative. Grante we will never have position in the hand. @pyonak It's 500 zoom so pretty good regs who are looking or any edge and definitely not quick folding their buttons. Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: PutYouOnAK/AQ on February 09, 2013, 11:06:33 AM pfftt still so many viable options with regards to river. really dunno what to say but most profitable line must be to check/tank...like dave says its gonna go ck ck so often an we win. if he bets river depening on player prob gonna...flip for me tbh really is a tricky river spot
love the way has been played till now, argument for 3betting because initially we win money and but lose out potential to stack a fish. is 3betting and winning here surely more profitable than playing streetz 3 way? i say this even though i like to flat here...call river for me actually. WHAT HAPPENED??BIG THREAD?? Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: SuuPRlim on February 09, 2013, 01:11:57 PM im really surprised chk/call river is becoming the least favored option, fwiw pleno done a pretty good job convincing me Im just surprised because I thought chk fold was almost un-viable as played when i first read the hh.
Great thread, wp everyone Title: Re: 500 zoom interesting spot Post by: PutYouOnAK/AQ on February 09, 2013, 01:24:40 PM yeh agree ck/c surely nut line. if i value bet the hands i mentioned then have to stick with ck/c. great thread tho, v interesting. lil dave btw was gonna do a backflip if u jammed that river in deepstack HU vs k8 wudda been gangster lol
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