blonde poker forum

Stars $55+5 Turbo, 4 left, blinds 100/200 with a 25 ante.

Stacks:
SB: 1070
BB: 1505 (you)
UTG: 5690
Button: 5235

UTG min-raises to 400, Button folds, SB folds, you have pocket Aces.

Anyone fold it?

Sheriff

Never ever ever ( I would overplay it and move in tho)

no Sheriff all in and prepare for the bubble

What would the poker player in house do, or is she too busy scything down hapless opponents?

All in in an instant. (Even min raise back and hope to steal his chips depending on the player)

There'd be scorch marks on the table.


I'm getting deja vu here though - I'm sure Sheriff comes back with an amazing counterpoint.

bad beat story?
get your loose change ready

Is this a joke?

Is this a sat?

get yer bad beat out of your system. No one folds here ever,  EVER !!!!!

So just get yer Fiver in the bad beat tin and spill the beans.

All-in is not over-playing your aces here. It is precisely the correct thing to do as you don't really mind not getting a caller. Keep the variance down by playing your monsters fast on the bubble. More than happy to take 800 chips uncontested at this point.

Small stack has 5 big blinds left still. A "make the money fold" is out of the question.

I'd be disgusted if I never got all my chips in here with AA. 

Id be disgusted if i never got a caller!!!

How can u be happy winning the 800 chips and not getting a caller please?

If someone can explain this to me in terms of numbers id much appreciate it.

FFS. I'm supposed to be ignoring you. And then you redeem yourself with a post like this.  :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

His post is not a great post. Its technically completely incorrect.

Come on then, oh great one, what do you do?

I said before, I would be tempted to min raise and hope he comes over the top. But my variance WILL increase by doing this. Thats the risk Im willing to accept.

I want a mathematical explanation as to why u dont want a call.

He says

"More than happy to take 800 chips uncontested at this point."

Why?

I dont mind the all in move. Not sure if i would personally do it.

But if I did, I would be praying for a call here.

Don't you think you are just as likely to get a call if you move all in? It looks weaker than the minimum raise leaving a bit back. Anyway in most circumstances you are pushing the rest in on the flop anyway

I would never min re-raise here. Its a horrible play imo. YOu either smooth call or move in.

My point is- If u move in, you should be praying for a call. And in no way at all is it +EV for him to pass for you.

Id smooth call here 90% of time. Unless UTG is a complete calling station then u might as well move in as you know he isnt passing.

I'd flatcall, and checkraise all in on the flop. But I'd agree with Tighty's point.

There is so much more to this than just the math, You might be a player that loosens up in order to get action when you have the monster. Dont be too quick to judge on what is the best move, although the way I play I would have them in so fast as I would have a person on automatic call for my verbal and playing junk and showing strategy I sometimes use.

I see no bad play in the move in, Taking the pot is fine at this point as one of the mugs will bust out soon.

I dont agree with noflops and tighty. Going all in, unless the player actually has a hand, he's going to go to stack defense and fold. Your not scaring him of with a smaller raise (or a smooth call). Hes the only other player on the table with a large stack. In this position of the tourney, his raise is just as likely to be a steal with a semi-decent to marginal holding.

One thing I either failed to notice, or wasnt mentioned is the level of the tourney, stake etc.

EDIT: Whoops, its a $55 STT on stars. So my points stay valid.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Quote from: WellChief on Today at 02:46:03 am
Is this a joke?

That was a pretty accurate statement.

The original question should have been. How do i get ALL my opponents chips in the middle here?

Thats a very dangerous play, Remember that aces agains 4 players with random hands your aces are only %55 to stand up against the other hands.

I want it heads up, the move in is a good move IMHO

Unless its a sat for a bigger tourney.

Ac Ad vs Kh Qh vs 7c 8c vs Jd Td

AA Win: 48.11%
Tie: 0.08%

I don't want all my opponents to call here.

"Thats a very dangerous play, Remember that aces agains 4 players with random hands your aces are only %55 to stand up against the other hands.

I want it heads up, the move in is a good move IMHO



Oh are the small blind and button going to reconsider their decision to fold then?

LOL :D

He didn't mean how does he get everyone to go all in against him.  This would be impossible anyway unless he had some sort of time machine which could force the players who had passed to call the min raise.  If you read the original post, he is already heads up by the time the action gets to him.

Am I missing something here? Are we not hu not againts 4 other players?

What is going on??

So the original question is exactly the same then. How do I get my one remaining opponent to get his chips in the middle.

He said "ALL". Different.

 rotflmfao rotflmfao rotflmfao

dubai, you have potential sir!

2,080 chips if you win the pot when you're not called

3,185 chips when you're called the the 4 times out of 5 your AA holds

0 chips when you're called and outdrawn.

IMHO the extra 1,105 chips will not add 25% to your tournament equity at this point. Hence me being happy with the fold. Trust me on this one, re-raise all-in with your AA on the bubble.

The above quote is whats going on. Dubai moved the goalposts on us :D

er he meant all his chips.

Tank trust me on this one. You want a call.

Ok I misread his post, or what he ment anyways.  You still move in regardless.

Mon then with some maths to back that up in this 50/30/20 prize structure.
I'd be interested.

 ;iagree; ;iagree; ;iagree; :goodpost:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not cursing the poker gods when I get a call but you do better in the long run when he folds here.
After the bubble, you want a call every time with AA.

The value or the extra 1100 odd chips in terms of the use you can make of them is so huge at this stage. Particularly with it being 4 handed. You also have to consider the potential of a further double up, instead of being on 4000 you are now on nearly 6400. Its about the potential the extra chips can give you in terms of breathing space and aggression. Instead of having a managable stack, you now have a playable stack. If your skill level is higher than your opponents than any +EV situation results in a greater future +EV because of the use you put to the chips.

Move in. You'll get a call, and you want it, it's a quarter of his stack and he's getting 2-1.

The extra 1,000 chips give you a much greater chance of bringing back first prize.

I'm with you here

The move all in is a win/win situation, you benefit if he folds, and if he calls you are %80 to win.

I really cant see where the debate on this one has come from, However Dubai I respect your opinion mate and good luck to you, Its your style of play and I hope it works for you.

The other thing I would add is in this day and age. The bubble is a vastly overrated talking point. People aint passing big hands to get their $55 unless they are playing hugely out of their comfort zone. But im guessing the $55 Stts on Stars prob have a high % of regularish players that really wouldnt adjust their play on the bubble.

Im guessing here as I dont play these particular Stts. But in the Stts i play (6paks) I know that very few of the players change during the bubble and im sure passing big hands never occurs.

I'll admit that whether you want a call or not might be marginal. Regardless of this, the move here is still a definite all-in.

All-in is the only option, there is no other sensible option.

Thankfully for me, they totally do.

I all but win many tournaments when there's still 4 left.

Betfair must be a different ball game then.

Cause when its 3 handed, its probably more aggressive than at any other point due to the size of blinds in relation to stacks. But you have to be willing to call all in with marginal hands when 3 handed in these.

Example-

KJs- you are on bb. with 1700 chips b4 posting. Blinds 150-300. Button has 2700. Small blind has the remaining 1600. Button passes.

If the small blind moves in here this is an instant call.
Its also probably a call if the blinds are 100-200.

Is IMHO

If you call. There is 1000 in pot. 90% of internet players make continuation bets. This will be in the range of 500-800. If its the latter end then he will be pot committed.

I dont see why you should give your opponent any chance of escaping the hand.

If the board came something like 722 933 844 etc. I would be willing to check this hand twice maybe 3 times to allow my opponent to catch up hif he has checked behind me.

Why allow him to escape a situation where he is completely dominated?

For me this depends on what type of opponents I'm against.

A lot of $55+$5 players fold too much and aren't as aggressive as they should be 3-handed. Against these I'd fold.
Others are really good and play with the proper level of agression. Against them I agree with you and would call with KJs in that spot.

Maybe the players are just much more aggressive in the games on betfair.

Cause if u call here on betfair. It simply looks like you are calling with a marginal hand due to the minimum raise and when you check the big stack normally just moves in on you with basically any hand he has raised pre with. BUT they are capable of passing these hands preflop to a re-raise all in.

So when I try to steal your blind on the bubble and you hold AA you'll flat call me to let me see the flop and might even give me a free turn and river card too.

Thankyou very much. I'm beginning to like you.

No problem. Im willing to play it through to the river if need be :)

Well, it's been interesting. Perhaps we should agree to disagree and call it a night.

Yes.

But anyway Sherrif. The answer seems to be a unanimous no.

that's sorted then

phew

goodnight

I would pass.

now someone give me more drugs.

Here's some crack...

I must admit i would move in here. I can see the arguement Dubai is making but what happens if he has such a hand that he will call a preflop push but will fold if he misses the flop. For example say ak, aq, aj etc........ Then we have lost our customer and failed to get all the chips in.

An interesting article (hope this doesn't constitute as spamming) on sit n go decisions around the bubble i recenty read can be found here. http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/harnett0106.html

Wow, I go to bed for a few hours and all hell breaks loose!

The reason I posted this is that as I played the hand I briefly considered folding, remembering back to Sklansky's section in 'Tournament Poker For Advanced Players' about it sometimes being correct to fold Aces.  However, I quickly recovered my senses, pushed, got called by 99 and subsequently lost the showdown.  As my icon disappeared from the screen I had visions of the short stack rubbing his hands with glee and it subsequently got me thinking about whether or not I'd done the right thing..

It might seem a trivial decision in this case but I was intrigued as to whether anybody would fold here.  When I used to post there regualarly, the single table tournament forum on 2+2 used to get regular 'should I fold Aces?' type posts where it seemed people were actively looking to do it (almost as if they wanted to be able to say 'I laid down Aces pre-flop').

Personally, there's still too much 'play' in the bubble here for me not to move in.  There's no guarantee that if I lay down here that the short stack will not find a spot to double up leaving me full of regret anyway, so I'll take my 80%ish chance of doubling up against my 20%ish chance of busting (just looking at my win % stats for AA).

As for the debate on all-in vs calling vs min-raising, I never even considered anything other than a push or fold.  Unless he's completely at it with garbage, I doubt UTG lays down ever here, he's calling 1,080 to win a pot of 2,080, with no immediate danger of busting out himself and a chance of bursting the bubble.

OK then, so as a follow up question, how far down the hand rankings do you feel you have such an automatic decision.  What if you had KK or QQ, where your chances of losing the hand are so much greater?  At what point does pushing in this situation not become an +EV play?

Sheriff

The only reason I can see to fold the AA would be if the next blinds would take out the other short stack on his next go but he can go round at least 3 more times. You have to play AA here and all in is the preferable move.

Q2
KK QQ JJ I'd be all in. TT I be all in but not be happy! anything lower (PP) I'd still probably go all in as its a turbo and vs the relative stack sizes I feel Id need to move. AK AQ I would go for it. AJ same again but not be happy.
So I'd go in with any PP, AK, AQ, AJ.
and fold everything else, let the other short stack make a decision. I'd never flat call with any of these hands in the situation you stated (though the AA might have been worth a flat call....) Not sure about when it becomes -EV but I'm sure some bright spark will number crunch it for us  :D

But I'm not going to get on my high horse and say my way is right! It's just how I would play the turbo with a low stack.

I've already crunched them.  I'm intrigued as to the debate before I give the results though.

Sheriff

Bright spark award to you then! *g
Do you really think about Turbos this much? I wouldn't have given it a second thought

I'd also like to know what hands you would play/fold in this situation....

The thing about SnGs is that the situations repeat themselves time and time again, so its well worth looking back at hands that intrigue you as experience for the next time.

I'm just starting to play them again, after a long spell of playing limit hold'em cash games so I'm trying to get tuned back into the thought process!

Sheriff