blonde poker forum

~50k deep at 300/600/50 Said hi to Trigg but not sure he particularly knows who I am or that this is a big comp for me. He 3bet me once before ages ago, and I folded. He has been pretty snug 3bet wise so far but table didn't really warrant it. I went down to 6k early and have been grinding ever since, saw me jam 20bb over 2 limps with AsTs and 5bet jam AQo after a hijack open i 3bet button 4b i shove.

Open 99 to 1200 from lojack. (mp+3 think we were 9 handed)

He 3bets to 2700 on the button. Table is very nice.

I ended up just folding. Felt like I would be set mining a lot, couldn't face any barrels so 99 virtually equals 22 here imo, but we overset more etc etc. Thoughts on the fold? Really didnt want to 4bet and play a big pot because I wasn't 100% what his idea of my game was like. Would rather 4b/fold broadways and Ax etc.

What's wrong with setmining this deep, assuming he has bigger/similar stack and hasn't been getting ool too much?

MP+3 is about SB?

I can't fold 99 here, just feels too nitty with antes in.  I assume you are 2 to his left.  I would rather call than fold, but can see why you folded OOP vs a good player, whatever position you are in.  4 bet could get messy, but 99 must be close to bottom of your 4 betting range, so 4 bet folding seems fine too.

It seems a bit inconsistent to 5 bet jam AQ and not 4 bet 99? I guess your stack must be bigger than it was when you had the AQ though.

He has you covered?

4bet folding because its the top f your folding range isn't a left excuse to 4b. Just because you'd peel in a spot w/55 that didn't mean we should 4bet 33.

4betting k9o >99


Edit tis pads

There is nothing in your 1st paragraph that I have said or implied. 

We are here to learn though, so why would Adam get freaky with K9o vs a good player OOP?  We aren't playing 5000 hands vs Trigg, so don't need to build in spew, and it doesn't seem to fit in a 4 betting range that is unexploitable*.  I am guessing K9o is near the bottom of Adam's opening range with Trigg 2 to his left (well may be off the bottom, though Adam can advise).

* and I assume we want to be close to this with a good player 2 to our left.

Anyway yeh it doesn't mater I'd not 4b k9 here I fold kqs to 3bs oop so obviously folding

I'm 4th to act and Trigg is button sorry, so 3 to my left, got confused as I'd written lojack but not sure its used commonly.

Its hard to flop a set and he can make a bigger set. 4 betting seems bad as I'm essentially bluffing but don't have the blockers. I very much doubt I have any 4 bet bluff range at this stage, the table was too good to bother really, prob peeling or 4ing AQs and 4betting KQo/AJ sometimes but that is about it.

I had about 25k when i jammed the AQ in a very different spot. The button was talking to a guy about the 5/10 game and whilst he hadn't been long everyone seems to think I'm a massive spewbox from the second they see me no matter what.

never fold call and play some streets.

I think you need to call and re-evaluate the flop. from 50k and the 3 bet totaling 2700, you really need to put a call in there for not so much more. The likelihood he has you crushed stands at around 20%? With 1010-AA on a 9 handed table. Seems he could be doing this with an array of picture cards and suited mid to high connectors, just as you said he is a good player, he can flop quite nicely with those holdings, and he may not need to as he has position and could just out play you. Thus his want to 3 bet with weaker holdings in this spot, especially at the thought that there hasn't been much 4 bet action going on? Plus you have shown form for folding to a previous 3 bet.

You would probably be forced though to deal with a lot of ugly looking boards, ideally with only one overcard, and you are continuously too having to make leap of faith calls in the hope he is bluffing. Of course you can take it upon yourself to play back at him but it could get messy.

I see your frustration, I think it is more than legitimate, but I think for the amount more and whatever table feel you have on Trigg 1500 more is surely worth a go?

I think you omitted how much Trigg's stack was, that would have an effect on what I do too. My style is to try and see a flop relatively cheaply in this spot and look to get creative post flop, not pre, where i think you are exposed too much by putting a 4b in. His involvement to your 4bet normally involves him crushing you with his hand range, and if you were to just peel, you could perhaps attain value by calling down if the board looks dry enough through the streets, and maybe start inducing the bluff from him with one overcard on it, if you are really thinking about a meta game, not the best oppo to be thinking about doing that to though!

 I think the 4b limits the value and increases the volatility. But I am just discussing, don't want you guys to think I am with one point of view and will only ever do that!

Good spot, what you guys think, am i talking bollocks?

folding obviously a little weak but surely has to be fine, you're sacrificing some EV (clearly continuing in some mannor is going to be profitable) so you don't have to play OOP to a good, experienced player with a hand that doesn't have very good visibility. 

Trigg has 50k I have 55k I think, not 100% and didn't ask at the time. I'm definitely not folding TT so this is probably the borderline.

I would have expected a 5b/peel the 4bet a decent chunk here, because stacks are so deep and we are oop, and I kinda expect Trigg to put me in a coffin spot at some point if I give him the chance. When I went down to ~8k i opened 88 and he 3bet an open then as well and I couldn't rip for 33bb, especially as it was his first 3bet, although stacks are so perfect for some bullying. This was mainly to check I hadn't gone too far and just been far too respectful and missed a spot.

edit: I have no doubts peeling 99 here for a bunch of people is profitable but its probably closer for a lot of those people then they think.

Like I said mate, you had genuine right to feel concerned and even though I may have come across strong above, folding is fine. I do have problems with a 4b though.

Peel surely? Even if we just c/f on any boards with overs when we don't flop a set we can show profit set-mining here. You're good enough to be able to pick off a couple of streets on some run-outs and Trigg isnt just going to go ape on every runout. I mean folding isn't terrible, but I see no reason not to flick it in here. 4-betting certainly can create problems... I don't see a lot of merit to it in this spot.

how can we fold pre? take it to the streets!

think folding is REALLY bad. call

Set mining or prepared to c/c one on like K73r etc?

i get wool vs people from blonde

So many bb, peel and check call for as long as you can stand the heat.

if ur as limited in your post flop game as either set mining or just taking one off on k73r then maybe shouldnt be playing £1k's.  (tongue in cheek obv )

Maybe the fact trigg is one of my good friends and i know his game pretty well gives me an unfair advantage when posting about this hand, but id say folding pre is really bad given stacks.
Dont like 4betting for a number of reasons, so quite an easy flick in pre i think.
Interested to hear OP's line with the following hands in this spot
 Js Ts

 Ts Th

 4d 4h

 Qc Qd

 Ahrt Ks

After watching Trigg on the feed and at the club would treat 99 as Ace's.  ;letsparty;

yes, that's what I meant. i'm calling to hit all boards with a 9 on them and exactly K73r. no other boards are useful.

huh? 722 > k73?

sarcasm pleno, sarcasm.

pretty sure this was my first 3 bet on the table all day, was going to the streets heaps

really daft thread really. OBVIOUSLY we're ahead of his range, OBVIOUSLY folding is quite weak and OBVIOUSLY we could profitably continue in some way. However, if you wanna avoid a  spot that could potentially be tricky and vs Trigg's first 3bet so it's not like youre getting run over then folding as an exploitative thing is surely just fine as a one off.

People like Marc are obviously never gonna fold here.

if that's true I guess I just fold as well then.

3bet light.

Second, your previous one was worth me right after I got crippled.

At Marc, no offence taken but given its oop to one of the strongest players in the field I disagree to the tongue in cheek remarks. Probably peel TT fold 44/JsTs (fml) Peel QQ and never fold or just 4b get in can't decide, 4/6/8/10 AK.

I think my initial thought was 4b seems ok, call ok, don't fold then;
went to 4betting awful stacksizes nasty not 4/6ing in this 1k here, why 4fold
Call- Sweet ass hand to do it, fantastic price etc, Trigg has all the golden reasons to unload the clip though, perfect image, opponent and situation
Fold- And don't tell anyone. Unfortunately my nittiness got on my mind.

I feel like I was uncomfortable on the streets so decided to fight another day. Trigg possibly backed this up by saying he gets wool vs blondes/was going to the streets. Don't worry it did feel super dirty. At least this is a solid image post on my behalf.

Dave; Understand your comments completely, but it had been playing on my mind a fair bit. I hadn't had any other interesting hands. I also wanted to know if it was implausibly bad, because this is probably my first fold in this spot in my life. I've been making some silly folds lately imo, and it had to be checked out somewhere, I expected the correct level of bluntness in the topic for me to get the message. I do think the live situational reads are really hard to convey. I would have just pmed trigg but he had a few days play to forget this preflop 3bet spot.

the scottish guy 2 to my left was really good i thought, think his name is ross, he was owning me pretty hard so i kept in my box as long as i could, so 3betting was off the agenda for the most parts

dont think there is a huge different between TT and 99 in this spot, yet ur calling TT?

Gotta draw a line somewhere. Not saying I'm right btw

how is this anything but a call (and play poker down the streets..), tonnes of stuff we can do post and we have a hand wayyy to strong to fold, would prolly fold 66<

we can win a number of ways, bluffing being one of the main ones.

I'd obviously never fold 99 here for any amount at any stage playig as someone else v trigg but think TT is significantly better

As for the 5 hands Marc said I'm folding none of them if I'm not me v Trigg.

Someone can run numbers but TT has a lot more equity than 99 v a decent range

I probably still flat them both but 4b going with Tens is way better than 9s

folding 99 here is a heroic pass. but it's kinda scared poker, i'm presuming you peel against any1 else's 3b.

if someone told you, you can see 4 cards for 10bbs maybe? you should c/c a whole bunch of flops and call in the nine ball on the turn. :)

Like 99% I imagine, took some stars to align with the table and that dynamic for me to fold here and its a spot where its hard for nitty to be THAT bad, but I don't want to lowball myself too hard because I should probably peel here.

i dont actually mind the fold as much as others, if you aint feeling the hand, you wont play your best post flop. i've recently open folded 99's to a single raise in a deep easy 1/1, now that is silly! ^_^

not saying you were adam, but what shocked me in this tournament was peoples reticence to play post flop. And seeing some of the stuff ITM i realised why

it would appear 3 years of rejamming 20bbs has left people unable to play post

I totally agree with you. Im sure it was impacted by a larger number of satty entries, but i was really surprised by the level of play in a £1k. I def ran good with tables draws, but even so............

There are 40 or so really good tournament poker players in UK, probably 8-10 didn't play, there are probably 120-150 decent tournament players in UK, maybe 15-20 didnt play. There was 504 runners. The maths is pretty obvious

Read some stuff about not feeling the spot so ok to avoid. But good villain sitting a few to the left is the spot we're facing the whole game.

think ours was one of the early ones to break and hero and villain both aware of this

yh think i agree with this to an extent. I think 99 is way too strong a hand to fold here, and trigg is going to be to our left every hand, so maybe we shouldnt open 99 in the first place if were raise folding to triggs 3bet?

@dubai, agree about not folding any of them hands, hence why i picked them.

considering this spot is in a complete vacuum, Trigg + Adam hve no practical experience of each others game and there has been no dynamic of note between the two of them so far, I'm not sure there is even succh a thing as too strong of a hand to fold in this spot, you give up equity by folding the strongest hands in your range but if you have a reason then that ok imo = you could fold QQ here if you wanted, providing you don't have a continuing range of only AA vs Trigg 3bet's for the duration of your play against him, then what you fold here is pretty irrelevant imo.

I don't see it as a complete vacuum mate. Hero already gives a lot of concessions to villain about his ability and how he can put him in a coffin spot etc, this is what's guiding his decision making.

I think there are value implications to folding such as wtf do we open from now on? How do we win this table? How do we respond with 99 should he 3bet us again? There are also further value implications because let's say we flop a 9 so bust villain and the problem altogether then our expectations at the table would increase accordingly.

I think there being no dynamic means we have an opportunity to play a strong enough hand and build a dynamic, rather than using no dynamic as an excuse to fold and avoid building one. We are here to play poker afterall.

this is the first hand these guys have played, anything adam thinks about Trigg and vica versa is all purely speculative at this point, the table is breaking so no need to win the table unless you want to. You can still open whatever you want, just because we've folded 99 here doesn't mean we can't open 9T next hand.


This is very true, but then if you wanted to use no dynamic as an excuse to fold, then you could, and it would be fine imo.

FWIW I'd never fold pre-flop here, I'd call almost 100%. I'm just reputing the claims that folding is absurdly bad, which I disagree with.

An optimal play is an optimal play for a reason. 18-28bb stack is a 3bet jamming stack. Personally wouldn't want to 3bet fold or peel
with that stack. The hero in this case has around 66 bbs from recollection from reading this post a few days ago so we can peel/see flop oop.

And I along with the vast majority of posters will not be folding 99 here.
Also pretty certain that only a small percentage of posters here have a fear of flopping yourself included.

And re-jamming 20bbs is a sweetspot with regards to fold equity a subject Elky touches upon in Kill Everyone don't tell the fish though please.