blonde poker forum

I decided to actually play a live cash game and take it seriously for the first time.  I was really shocked at the standard of a 1/2 game (having not played one before), I got involved in a hand as follows:

UTG+1 A Chinese kid who is playing a lot of hands and is frequently getting it all in on the flop with any kind of draw opens to £7.
Button (Me)   Aspades Jd calls in position
SB Has just sat at the table on break from the tournament and hasn't even got his chips yet and says he has half an hour to play calls.

Flop:  Jh 8s 3s   (Pot: £23)

SB leads for £25, UTG+1 makes it £68, we have £180 behind, we???

I think theres a good chance that this is pretty standard but would like some advice from some of the more experienced cash game-ists (if you've played 1/2 twice or more you qualify :D).  All comments and opinions appreciated.

What did the new player look like, assuming under 30 we shove

Assumed correctly.

go all in imo.

Shovel it, we also have the key  Aspades which always helps. Also kinda doesnt help in the sense that we've removed nut flush draws from their range, but still, imallin.

As above.

What do we think the other two have?

I expect 9T and XXss are fairly high percentages but happy to gauge opinion on that.

Yeh given the table I thought it was a pretty easy jam.  But I level myself a bit in the live arena expecting it to be as tough as online cash.  Which im learning pretty quickly that it isn't!!!!

I read this, thought def allin, went away came back thinking maybe not with potsize and with descriptions we cant fold so arrin.

edit: SB not being aware of utg+1 fishiness and us having As makes it a bit dirty.

Theres a chance my hand may have been something like  Ad Js.  Guessing its pretty much irrelevant if were arrrrin in either case?

Depends on the table, as it does online, although I absolutely agree that live is softer than online in general. I would assume the table is as tough as an online one until i know otherwise, which can sometimes be even before a hand is dealt, but still, i need a reason.

I love having the As in my hand as it removes some Ax combos with spades which have good equity vs us.

I'm still shoving if I don't have it though.

800,058  games     0.017 secs    47,062,235  games/sec

Board: Jd 8s 3s
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    30.762%     26.95%    03.81%            215615        30496.50   { AdJs }
Hand 1:    35.522%     31.57%    03.95%            252611        31589.00   { 8d8h, 8d8s, 8h8s, 3d3h, 3d3s, 3h3s, AJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As2s, KsQs, JsTs, Ts9s, AdJc, AhJc, AhJd, AsJc, Tc9d, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s }
Hand 2:    33.716%     33.20%    00.52%            265614         4132.50   { JJ+, 33, AsKs, AsQs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, KJs, KsTs, QJs, QsTs, Qs9s, 9s7s, KJo, QJo, Tc9d, Tc9h, Tc9s, Td9h, Td9s, Th9s }


Sb hand one, utg+1 hand two. Think prob give both a bit too much credit and SB prob has some lead/fold range so this isnt totally accurate. But don't want As going 3 ways.

Yeh this seems to giving them wayyyyy too much credit.  FWIW UTG+1 quickly flipped over  5s 2s after calling my shove.

Im my head i gave utg+1 pretty much any spade combo + T9, sets, 2 pairs and AJ/KJ/QJ.

Would give the bb something similar seen as this is his first hand and basically sat down and declared he was here to gamble (having only bought in for 50bb)

Bit gutted I dont have PokerStove anymore as you cant download it.

This had AsJd as a comparison and was 2% worse off. Can't find text.doc now.

flsopasdasdaasdkjadbajiadhe2e88]OIJoiadjdaakdncdoi
adsjaodpm[[a[q209999999asooooffffffasdapodakpkda
 Qc 4d Tdaqdada0daddm]aaaaq==\[\[asdadad------
fwuppetywuppetydoodoodoodeedoo


See? We can all post gibberish.

(in before I do it more than most)

Seriously, that needs explaining to someone who started playing poker before 2005.

Kthxbye

it's called pokerstove Tal, basically ts like an equity calculation, but allows you to imput a "range" of hands (basically more than one hand) as opposed to just a singular hand.

So a basic equity calculation would be like this;

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.2 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Holdem, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 Ad Kc
PLAYER_2 2s 2d
1712304 trials (exhaustive)


All-in Equity
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chxl=2%3A|Percent|0%3A|2s%202d|Ad%20Kc&chxt=y%2Cx%2Cx&chxp=2%2C50&chco=00aa00&chbh=a&chm=N%2A%2A%25%2C000000%2C0%2C%2D1%2C12%2C0%2Cr&chds=0%2C53&chxr=1%2C0%2C53&chs=400x95&cht=bhs&chd=t%3A47%2E3519%2C52%2E6481&chma=|10)

	Equity %	Wins Hi %	Ties Hi %	Wins Hi Count	Ties Hi Count
Ad Kc	47.3519%	47.0436%	0.6167%	805529	10559
2s 2d	52.6481%	52.3398%	0.6167%	896216	10559

So it simulates and all-in between AK offsuit against pocket 2's a ton of times (1,712,304 on this occasion lol) and records all the results to provide this data, as you can see AKo will win 47.3519% of the time, and will tie 0.6167% of the time (everytime you do this the number will be VERY slightly different but 1.7m trials is more than enough to be pretty confident with the results!)

What a poker STOVE does over a basic equity calculator like the one above ^^^ is it allows you to put a RANGE in, so lets say we have AKo preflop and we don't know our opponent DEFO has pocket 2's but we are going to assign him a range of (remember im pulling stuff out of thin air here) all pairs (22-AA) AKo/AKs AQo/AQs and AJs then we calculate how our AKo does against all these hands, like so;

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.2 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Holdem, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 Ad Kc
PLAYER_2 22-AA, AK:xy, AK:xx, AQ:xy, AQ:xx, AJ:xx
164381184 trials (exhaustive)


All-in Equity
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chxl=2%3A|Percent|0%3A|22%2DAA%2C%20AK%3Axy%2C%20AK%3Axx%2C%2E%2E%2E|Ad%20Kc&chxt=y%2Cx%2Cx&chxp=2%2C50&chco=00aa00&chbh=a&chm=N%2A%2A%25%2C000000%2C0%2C%2D1%2C12%2C0%2Cr&chds=0%2C52&chxr=1%2C0%2C52&chs=400x95&cht=bhs&chd=t%3A48%2E0404%2C51%2E9596&chma=|10)

	Equity %	Wins Hi %	Ties Hi %	Wins Hi Count	Ties Hi Count
Ad Kc	48.0404%	43.0200%	10.0408%	70716760	16505234
22-AA, AK:xy, AK:xx,...	51.9596%	46.9392%	10.0408%	77159190	16505234

(note: AK:xx = AKs AK:xy = AKo)

So our AKo has 48.040% equity against that RANGE of hands, and will tie 10.0408% - this information would be useful if we were for example, trying to work out the profitablilty of an ALL-IN (why Adam has rightly applied it to the spot in this thread)

It's actually way better than this as well (geeky i know lol) you can alter the frequency of the time PlayerX will have a certain hand, so if he has AK 100% of the time and AQ 75% of the time (he will play AK like this 100% of the time, but 1/4 of the time will play AQ differently for e.g.) then you can put in AQ:75% and that will take out 1/4 of the AQ combinations, it's a very clever piece of kit.

It doesn't do everything for you though, you have to remember to consider your FOLD EQUITY as well (as in the times a player will not have a hand he intended to play for value) and will fold - although as a general rule for stoving spots it's a good idea to begin with the assumption you will get 0% folds, and see how the figures work, if you have enough equity go all-in when you never get a fold then you dont need to calculate further you can just know that ever 0.5% of the time he folds you make that little bit more money.

And anyone can make any spot a profitable one on pokerstove by fiddling with the numbers, often spots are quite close and you fiddling with the hands in each range even a slight bit can make a losing play appear profitable and defendable - you have to be i) Very objective and realistic when you're imputting ranges, and ii) have to have at the very least a BASIC understanding of the guys realistic range (often this is a lot simpler than you'd think) but guesswork unless it's very well educated is often a decent waste of your time with these types of calcuations.

I think the main point Adam was proving as that its MARGINALLY worse to have  Aspades Jd , than  Ad Js in this particular spot, but if you look at his figures (if his ranges are correct, i dont really have time to look closely into it, we would have 26.95% equity with our AJ if were to go all-in 3ways, if were to be gtd to going all-in 3ways we'd be risking £180 to win £563 so we need (180/563 = 0.31) 31% equity so if we are going to be 3ways, vs the ranges ADAM has given then we're about 4% shy of the required pot odds.

however I imagine we get enough folds from the SB, and the UTG range might actually be weaker (in terms of the spade/spade combo's) than adam has given so I think we'll be making money by going all in here, but its the base of how we'll solve a spot like this mathematically.

If you strengthen the SB range slightly, then I think it becomes a bad shove, so you see how close these things are, and how easy a manipulation in the figures makes a big difference.

Hope this helps :)up

Its from a program called pokerstove that calculates our ranges. I tried to show having the As is bad for our hand because we have better equity against A7 of spades then K5 or 9Q with the flush draw etc. The useful data is the first % which is the hand ranges equity. The other is the actual hand combos, i tried to estimate rough frequencies, the ranges arent exact for situation and its hard to know how fishy the fish is, some wouldn't fold 82 here or 56.

Cheers Dave sigh, timing is everything.

Having As was marginally worse

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why Lil Dave is immense.

Thanks also, Mr P.

Seriously, much appreciated both. Makes a LOT more sense now :)

get stoving.

you can actually do maths as well so you should be sick at it in no-time :)

I'll level with you, Dave. I'm not convinced I'll ever play enough hands to warrant needing that engine to tell me whether the Aspades matters :D

Don't get me wrong, love a bit o'maths, me.

I'd get it in. The above range for whatever reason you're including some naked straight draws from both players and it seems unlikely they're in their ranges, and you haven't included any pairs at all other than QQ-AA and pair + fd. We should definitely put some KJ, QJ and even JT and J9 in at least one of their ranges.

Weaker opening raiser is hand 2 and hs KJ/QJ/JJ+ and we have/thought we had Js blocker. The ranges were to see whether having As worked for or against, but pokerstove didn't copy over properly. Having As meant we were 2% worse off.

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.2 Professional)

Have been looking for a program to replace Stove for a while.  This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks Dave!!!!!!!  :respect:

Odds Oracle is frickin' brilliant

Ive just installed it on my mac and its an assault on the eyes, but I'm sure its very useful when I've worked out what all the functions do.

hit me if you need help.