blonde poker forum

...That is on-par with poker in terms of number of people in the UK who rely on it as their sole/primary income.

Pure guess - Golfist?

Blacksmith.

Rugby player.

Chiropodist

Prostitute.

What numbers are we working on here? 500?

Politician.

No real idea, but I'm guessing perhaps closer to 2000.

Where are we going with this anyway?

Taxidermist

Nowhere, I was just thinking about how huge the ISPT was in our little bubble of a community, but to 99.9% of the population, it means nothing.

I feel so wrapped up in this world, it's easy to forget how insignificant the whole thing is.

Are we really on a level with Chiropodists?!

take way the over on 500

Probably yes under the the terms of the op.

Agree with this.

Must be close to 5 figures.

Well if only 10% of players are profitable, then I would imagine only the top 1/2% would make enough money to make a living from.  If we say 100k people in the UK play poker regularly then that would suggest 1-2k professionals under the terms of OP?

Really?

A full time poker dealer.

There are tonnes of SnG/small stakes cash grinders tho.  Whether they are pros or just play poker for an income is debatable.

Know of probably 50+ people on Sky alone that play for a 'living', some of those playing as low on 4nl, and thats on a modest site.

Probably 1500-2000 that make 'decent' money at it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are 10k plus who grind enough to consider it their main source of income.

huh?

Yeah I know but they are out there!  They obv must live with their parents or something and grind grind grind but guess some people are just happy with £100 or so a week to keep them ticking over.

does media/operators etc count as people who rely on poker? or specifically players?

specifically players

theres tonnes of live cash players.

way over 100 online mtt players

way over 100 sng players

way over 500 online cash game players


like scotty said, so many people playing bowl stakes making enough to get by.

I have changed my mind.... An MP I am now going for.

Exactly 650 players make over 25 k a year which is the average wage in UK?

I can't think of a profession with less people.

meh, making a living doesnt mean you have to earn average wage, it means that you have to make enough money to survive and live and depend on it.

basically anybody earning over 12k a year.

its like just saying that working in a restaurant isnt a profession or dismissing anybody who is a poker dealer as a profession because they dont earn over 25k.

Making a living doesn't make you a member of a profession.

As a profession tho its almost ignored / hidden under the carpet , not to be spoken about by the media in general , if for example madonna. was at wembley it's all over the papers , or some Mickey Mouse non league team get there , they big it up .There were amateur / recs from all over England trying to get there / getting there for 30£ , players from the continent , America etc and virtually no mention of it in the media ,in pubs it's now as popular as pool / darts probably more so ,yet generally overlooked by the media , shame really
Is it ignored as it is seen as gambling ?
Horse racing is publicised , yet virtually no mention of poker ?

And just because you have The Camel doesn't mean you have a regulatory body.

And you can earn nothing at all and still be a member of a profession.

I just thing mainstream society don't really care about poker. There is a lot more money in horse racing which is why it gets more attention.

I've had the conversation of "how big do you think the 'serious' poker player market is" with lots of very high up poker industry people over the last few years. By serious I mean plays the circuit/reads poker news/posts on forums/uses software/knows what rakeback is etc. They might be low stakes, high stakes, recreational, pro, winning or losing, but they take the game seriously. Poker fans, essentially.

They all said a similar figure, which is my estimate too, about 30,000 for the UK.

Obviously most poker fans are far from being (or wanting to be) a professional player. I personally would set the line at about 1,000 career poker players in the UK.

I think the ISPT probably shed some light on this. I'd love to find out how many uniques played in the €30 sats/€300 day 1s/€3,000 directs. You would think at least half of the UK pros would have played in at least one variant of those. 

Vegas tho

Also most cash game players just simply dont care about MTTs. I'd suggest less than 5% of full time cash players played any part of ispt.

I am sure the number of people who play MTTs for a living must be well over 100.  I am ranked just inside the 100 on pocket 5s, I'd say at least 90% of those above me must be full time, quite a few below me and several who aren't ranked.  So I'd go for something like 250 for online MTTs alone.  I guess there must be more than that play cash for a living and a few less play STTs these days + a smattering of live only players who make a living.  So all in all about 1k. 

Out of interest Doobs, what does your typical schedule look like?

I can't start until around 8, but weekday:
Stars
8.30 50 rebuy
8.35 25 hyper turbo plo8, 100 plo8
9 big 150
10.15 100 turbo
+ more occasionally the hotter 50 and 75 and if I start early enough the 7.30 50 plo8
I will sometimes play others if in the mood and sometimes throw away 500 in the weekly plo8 on a Wednesday.

Stars.fr
100 at 8pm
100 turbo, 50 turbo and 30 turbo.
Sometimes the 8.30 200 6 max

Ongame
50 rebuy at 8
Sometimes 50 turbo at 9.30 and 100 turbo at 10.15

Sky
Whatever the 8pm game is and sometimes the mini and sometimes the 9 pm.

Winamax
8 pm 100 euro game
8.30 high roller and most days the 50
9.30 100 Payback turbo
10 50 turbo
11 Le Go Fast 50 Turbo
Sometimes the 20 Euro crapshoot.

I poker
Sometimes play the 50r and the deep stack turbo.  I am not a fan, the structures are just a little too good for the prize money.   I don't want to be still up at 4am for a few hundred dollars.

I try and keep below 12 tables nowadays, so only open more than that by accident.
Some days I may just play a few turbos and the ante only on stars which is about 10.  It usually happens if I am knocked or the kids are playing up or if I am playing on a non core day.
Sundays things get binned for the more special Sunday biggies.

I drop the bigger ones on bad downswings.  When I am working I lose everything that finishes after 2, though I think even that is too late, so may get stricter next time.

I only really play proper schedules on Sundays, Wednesdays and Fridays.  Kids get me up at 7.

Amazing!

What a lightweight I really am.

[X] Thin
[ ] Thin

Musicians

Lots of professional sports people in sports such as: snooker, darts, athletics, cricket, etc.

Teachers.

I know a guy who has a part-time job as a bed-tester. Heavy guy.

Twenty minutes on each side, apparently.

SEX Therapist
I wish !!!

Stand Up Comedians?

Loads grinding the circuit, then a bunch making a living and a relatively small number making loads.

Drug dealer?

Lots of small wannabe drug dealers
And few big time drug lord

Seems to be some confusion between "Profession" and "trade".

They are very different things. Don't ask me the difference though, I don't know.

Think one is posh, like Tal, the other is more sort of common, like Vinni, or Jeeves.

Got any clarkey cat?

"Foreign travel often liberates emotions best kept in check, sir, and the air of North America is notoriously stimulating in this regard, as witness the regrettable behaviour of its inhabitants in 1776"

I refuse to be in a different group to Jeeves.

/thread IMO

lol judging by the overlay I'd say the same for MTT players!

edit: too soon? :(

No, but I've got some triple sod.

yes

I can get you some Yellow Bentines.

Will settle for a little loonytoad quack.

I can't start until around 8, but weekday:
Stars
8.30 50 rebuy
8.35 25 hyper turbo plo8, 100 plo8
9 big 150
10.15 100 turbo
+ more occasionally the hotter 50 and 75 and if I start early enough the 7.30 50 plo8
I will sometimes play others if in the mood and sometimes throw away 500 in the weekly plo8 on a Wednesday.

Stars.fr
100 at 8pm
100 turbo, 50 turbo and 30 turbo.
Sometimes the 8.30 200 6 max

Ongame
50 rebuy at 8
Sometimes 50 turbo at 9.30 and 100 turbo at 10.15

Sky
Whatever the 8pm game is and sometimes the mini and sometimes the 9 pm.

Winamax
8 pm 100 euro game
8.30 high roller and most days the 50
9.30 100 Payback turbo
10 50 turbo
11 Le Go Fast 50 Turbo
Sometimes the 20 Euro crapshoot.

I poker
Sometimes play the 50r and the deep stack turbo.  I am not a fan, the structures are just a little too good for the prize money.   I don't want to be still up at 4am for a few hundred dollars.

I try and keep below 12 tables nowadays, so only open more than that by accident.
Some days I may just play a few turbos and the ante only on stars which is about 10.  It usually happens if I am knocked or the kids are playing up or if I am playing on a non core day.
Sundays things get binned for the more special Sunday biggies.

I drop the bigger ones on bad downswings.  When I am working I lose everything that finishes after 2, though I think even that is too late, so may get stricter next time.

I only really play proper schedules on Sundays, Wednesdays and Fridays.  Kids get me up at 7.

[/quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow...that's a shit load of money every week...out of interest on average what are your percentages of final tables/cashing of any kind and bust before the money...if you don't mind sharing.

Poker is not a profession.

How you lot can say actual professions that you get taxed on is similar is lolz!

Poker is a profession. How you can say we are lolz is lolz.

You really think this? You are playing a game of chance, it kinda takes away from those who actually have a profession? Is being on the dole a profession too?

Latest prices on Betfair

Red Dog 1.01-1.02
Aaron 95-100

No skill in poker then?

OK. I'll take anyone who I consider to be a professional player heads up v your randomly selected pub player.

Of course there is skill in poker, but surely to call it a profession is a bit OTT?

So is bookmaking a profession?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make Tom. Anyone could create a book if they wanted.

And make a living from it?

Any pay tax?

Poker players are probably the only self employed professional people in the country who pay every bit of tax they owe.

Your first argument was that chance was involved, now it's a tax issue?

It wasn't an arguement, poker playing is not a job or a profession. You solely earn income from poker and it can only be called that, IMO.

From what you are saying, being a drug dealer is a profession, yes?

I'm assuming you think all American players are professional?  8)

No. Not an argument, a friendly debate, but your post left no room for debate, you said "I'm right and you are all lolz"

And if you deal drugs for a living then yes, that is your profession. (imo of course)

I'd argue that you can be a 'Professional' Drug Dealer, so therefore it's also a profession. Not a profession to be advocated or accepted by society, but it fits the definition of profession.

I'm a professional Card Room Manager/Tournament Director. It stands to reason that there are Professional Poker Players who enable me to fulfill that job description.

It can be a leisurable activity. Like..football, for example. You also get 'Professional' football players.

I didn't say that Tom! lol

But I'm not sure how how something can be called a profession when it's effectively something something else & you're not paying tax, which yes is perhaps a point. You could add numerous thighs down as a profession if its all based on skill? Therefore being on the dole is profession & so on and so on.

Perhaps people like to call it a profession or a job to get that bit of self importance or worth?

They probably call it a profession/job because it is their main source of income, requires skill/knowledge to be consistently profitable and therefore it fits the definition perfectly.

Effectively you are still gambling to make a living and there is no guaranteed income however good you are.

Perhaps that's why other people say it isn't a profession.


American player pay tax. Are they professionals?

what would you say a poker player was though? unemployed?

Bookmakers (Ladbrokes, William Hill) do that, are you saying that they are not professionals? (Are you going to answer this question btw?)

What about sponsored poker players? They can make a guranteed income if they are backed for everything and take a % of profits (i.e. can't lose their own money). They have a guarenteed income.

IMO you are a professional poker player when you fund your lifestyle soley through poker. It just happens to be a profession whereby you may require to live off of savings previously won for periods where you aren't profitable. We all know long-term the best players will effectively have a 'guaranteed income'.

They are a business offering a product and are paying tax, they are professionals.

Are American poker players professionals?

How are they guaranteed profit? They are not guaranteed to win anything.

As for being called professional, I just see players as poker players, without the term professional. I said it before, think its to look good, or look self important.

Haha, I see what you are doing Tom.

It's all different I suppose, but I don't think they are, just that the USA is taxed differently.

I consider myself a professional. It has nothing to do with looking good or self-importance. Many people would look down upon it as a profession. I wouldnt consider it that at all... it's merely a definition of what I do for a living.

They are guaranteed profit from sponsorships. (and long-term from poker assuming they are good).

So poker players aren't professionals because they don't pay tax, but those that do pay tax aren't professionals for some other reason?

How are poker players guaranteed players sponsored or not? They may never win another hand.

Prositution is labelled "the oldest profession"

They don't pay tax, and have no guaranteed income.

Aaron?

That's a ridiculous analogy, Aaron.

A self employed poker dealer might not get offered another chance to deal - does that mean he isn't a professional poker dealer?

What about a professional self employed welder who can't get a contract? Does this mean he isn't a professional welder by trade?

"Occupation, practice, or vocation requiring mastery of a complex set of knowledge and skills through formal education and/or practical experience."

If you can be a Professional Poker Dealer, you can be a Professional Poker Player.

When it comes to being a self employed poker dealer, I'd argue they probably pay the same amount of money in tax as a player. It's still a job, whether tax is paid or not.  

is Vamplew a professional money trader? Should he be paying tax?

They can call themselves professional if they want. But whether its a profession, is debatable, you are still effectively gambling to eat the next day, but you can be skill less in poker, still win money. You can't be skill less in most other professions & make a living.

Perhaps poker players are in the same group as drug dealers and dolers when it comes to professions then? You make a living and put nothing into the system. Not to mention those who probably are classed as "unemployed" who play poker for a living and take every benefit they can, but yet will tell someone they are a poker player rather than "unemployed"

I have no idea how prostitution works, can't say I've had any experience of it or what happens financially.

That's an entirely different debate, and it's a flaw of the state system rather than a fault of the individual themselves.

I'd take every benefit I could, too, if the government had no interest in what my main source of income was and didn't want to tax it.

And if someone asked you what your profession is? What do you say?

I'd say I was a Professional Card Room Manager. Plus I am claiming every benefit I am able to because the Government doesn't tax my earnings and has deemed me elligible for state benefits.

So poker players aren't professionals because they don't pay tax, but those that do pay tax aren't professionals for some other reason?

Me neither. I presume you know what one is though? I've no idea how nuclear fission works but I'd still class it as a profession

What if one may never bone again?

Is the oldest profession no longer a profession?

I would imagine its common sense to say you are a poker player, since if someone asks you "What do you do for a living?" Saying "I'm unemployed" doesn't actually answer their question.

Hahahaha, Tom don't twist it! :D

You don't need to be skilled to make a yearly income from poker, you don't pay tax either, most professions do, that's the point. Like I said you are effectively relying on luck to make an income, whether you are hundreds of percents in front or behind!

Although I made this point to see if we could get Patrick back on here in the rail

Hi Patrick!

Aaron, is there even the slightest chance you will change your mind about this whatever I say?

LOOK THERE HE GOES AGAIN, STICKING TO HIS GUNS!

LOCK HIM A SLOT IN THE ADVENT CALENDAR TIGHTY!

Hilarious watching Tom rip you apart btw.

But if you get your money in "hundreds of percents" in front on a regular enough basis, you are significantly more likely to die in your call-centre office chair of a broken nose than not make a profit, which makes your argument pretty pointless.

Here comes the clique :D

A product isn't guaranteed to sell. It doesn't mean creating or selling said product means you aren't a professional. In as much the same as a professional poker player isn't guaranteed to win money.

It doesn't change the irrefutable logic of this simple fact: they are highly likely to do so.

I'm not going to change my opinion, no. But there we go, it's healthy debate, yes.

But stato, there is still go guarantee you will win, how many times its run.

We are solely on a poker forum, doubt we will see many that don't think it's a profession, but I would personally not say its mine whether it was or wasn't.

It wasn't quite as hilarious as watching you come up with your own staking business idea btw

were u dropped on your head as a baby?

Well that's where you have the advantage.

See, when I debate, I do so with and open mind and I am prepaired to accept good points that are well made.

Not really much point continuing is there?

Good luck to you. I don't think we will be debating again any time soon.

You've based it on that you said that there is skill involved, but you don't have to be skilled to make money from the game. You could be just incredibly lucky, no?

I wonder if we went on an open forum and discussed if it was a profession and if drug dealing was a profession, that they would agree?

Looks like it

"aaron2.jpg"

you have more than one?

LOL, must have really got to you Alex?

I suppose I can brag about not having to travel round Europe looking for a partner. BRAG! :D

Just to clear something up, it wasn't tighty that recommended Aaron for the advent calendar.

Not really at liberty to discuss who it was on the open forum, but the mod involved was scottish. And it wasn't ironside, before anyone jumps to conclusions.

Right, back to the debate...

HAHA!

I can send you more Alex if you want x

:)

Guess the local professional hookers must love your business. Bet you've got some lovely girls right on your doorstep.

Don't worry, I know who it was, and have spoken to that person who said they deeply regret it now.

I suppose its cheaper than traveling around Europe!

Wow, you must winning a lot then! Congrats.

before you retort, im done, this wont be continued tomorrow. night night everyone.

enough to justify 1.5 ;)

damn it, really am done now

I suppose one time you have to be successful at selling at 1.5 one time...

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/Blind_Pig/Derailment.jpg)

Obviously this is true... but I would expect those 5/10% of poker players who make a living and would call themselves professionals would be those who are skillful enough to consistantly make profit. Not some guy who wins the lottery and claims to be a professional lottery player.

Its like you're trying to make a case that being a long-term profitable poker player is some sort of myth. Surely you can't be serious.

Aaron it's generally safe to assume when Red is disagreeing with you that you're likely missing something, and when multiple other persons are too it's even more likely time to reassess your position.

How can it not be your profession if something provides you with your sole source of income, and your bills are paid as a result of endeavours in said field?

A lot of jobs require some things to go your way in order that you're successful, that doesn't mean they're not any less valid, or does it?

Just because people who play poker in the UK are fortunate enough to not pay tax, it doesn't make it any less a profession and it certainly doesn't validate your stance. Tom attempted to slowly guide you to what I see as the correct conclusion, but you perceive that to be 'twisting' things?

Hey, of course I'm not trying to make out everyone loses. But there is nothing guaranteed is there? If I was relying on poker for income or dare I say it, become a poker player to gain an income, I wouldn't call it my profession if someone asked or job.

I'm going to ask people elsewhere see what they say (who are impartial of course).

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zSMVm0bY1MQ/UAWANsTh1QI/AAAAAAAAB7w/Yp-0FHaZoko/s1600/gladiator-thumbs-down.gif)

I'd also like to point out some prostitutes pay tax.

Death is guaranteed, and that is about it...

Not declaring that you're a poker player even if that is your sole source of income is a choice, that doesn't mean it isn't your profession/job.

What would you say out of interest if that were the case?

If I was solely playing poker to get money, I'd probably tell them that I win money from playing poker. I don't think I'd call it my job, like ever. Aren't jobs there to pay tax, I wouldn't be paying tax (yes I know I'm repeating myself).

You may not wish to do so, but I think that it is unfortunately. Keith is a professional gambler, but he can't refer to it as a profession because he doesn't pay tax?

Also, does that mean people residing in Monaco have no profession because they don't pay tax?

If someone was on commission only, and didn't sell anything that month. Would that still be their profession?

I got told off by the American man all in black with black glasses with his little notepad at Heathrow airport when trying to check in my luggage on a random search. Why are you taking x amount to Las Vegas - holiday bit of poker, where did u get x amount from what is your profession? "I don't have a taxable income I believe I am unemployed" "don't get smart with me young man I can stop you boarding this plane immediately border control something something".

He decided for me my profession was a poker player by law and it would be on file for questioning the moment I landed and it was.

Still can't find ignore button, wasting hours of everyone's time with his posts, quite possibly the worst poker player between the age of 18-25 I have had the displeasure of sharing a table with who was actually trying to win and make profitable decisions whilst dissecting others play and telling the, what they should be doing different.

What forum are you a moderator on Aaron?

If you guys want to call it a profession it's upto you :D

Who?

You!

Back to open shoving 500 bigs and country hopping ;)

Heh i was being abit naughty.

There should be an Aaron containment thread where his post stay In he normal tread for 24 hours then automatically move to the containment thread afterwards.

Btw I had a pair, not like I did it with ten high!

Yet you moan that nothing ever happens in the rail! :D :D

That's y I want to keep it fr 24 hours, gripping!

Anyone seen wazz? He hasn't posted for nearly 20 hours!

Actual LOL :D :D :D

He posted on 2p2

Maybe he has reached the magic 300?

Adzy backed Tom yesterday aftenoon when Tom was 33/1.

 ;bigadz;

WTF happened with this thread, it gained 10 pages in the middle of the night!

Cat amoung the pigeons

As a profession is 'a paid occupation' and in theory you could play poker for days/weeks/months and not get paid there is an obvious argument it can not be counted as a profession as there is no guarantee you will get paid

Being a professional poker is a different thing all together.  IMO

You can be a musician as a profession, but not be guaranteed to receive any income each month.

I met an artist last night who does some amazing drawings of people, but is spending a lot of time and money trying to get noticed and get that break. His profession is as an artist. He just needs some luck and the harder he works, maybe the luckier he will be.

The tax argument is obviously flawed, and Aaron knows this but his 'style' of debating doesn't allow him to concede he was wrong. He still hasn't said what is different between US poker players and UK poker players that makes one have a profession and the other not. If he decides that neither have a profession then the tax point is completely irrelevant.

Unless the definition has changed, I'm at a loss to understand this "profession" thing.

As a rule of thumb, you need formal training & qualifications to be a "professional" anything. Professions include Musicians, Doctors, Airline Pilots, Accountants, Actuaries. Playing poker is not a profession, but we can be professional poker players. In the case of poker, "professional" simply denotes paid to do the job (via income), not an amateur.

Without such qualifications, surely we are just tradesmen?

The other category would be labourers. That would include, say, artists, who paint pictures & do art type stuff.

Dan, sometimes I back down, this has happened in the past, so I'm not always in the style of 'my way or no way'.

But you mention musicians and so on, but this is all in the context of if they was employed, etc. you are perhaps changing it, to suit, like Tom.

The tax argument is what it is, I don't know what the situation is on tax in the USA, but was again to suit the debate :) but what about drug dealers? If we are going on Tom's theory, them drug dealing is a profession, but one which is actual fact ILLEGAL. So how does that work?

Is a profession not something to do with education too? Or is this where people come in and say their knowledge of the ten times table from primary school is relevant here?

I think a profession is a very narrow set of careers in law, medicine, accountancy, academia, basically a position which would have impressed the local gentry in a Jane Austen novel.

Nowadays the meaning has expanded to include everything, therefore rendering it meaningless.

Correct.

As in cricket and football in the early years and i believe in horseracing today the word professional is used to draw a distinction between the amateurs and those who pursue a living through the activity.

This seems to fit the notion that given that some poker players aren't amateurs and have no source of income  otherthan that which they derive from poker they are, professionals.

This does not suggest that poker is a profession in the way that accountancy or medicine are.

I'm about to argue with the dictionary!

Should that not be "e.g." instead of "i.e."?

It most certainly should.

So you can be a professional poker player, but poker is not your profession?

Interesting.

This part of the film, and subsequent .gif, are actually inaccurate. Whilst popular perception is that 'thumbs down' meant 'finish him' (a la Mortal Kombat), it actually meant 'let him live'. The thumbs down was essentially a signal that, "baying mob, I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you".

@ Aaron. I'm a decent sort, and had typed out a lengthy and reasonable reply. Then I remembered the below .gif, and decided, for the first time in my life, to stoop to a bit of keyboard warriorship. If you were merely trolling, I doth my cap and say #wpsir.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5tgdxToMP1rwcc6bo1_500.gif)

Pretty much the point I made in the post immediately above yours.

What was the purpose of the original question Alex?

Exactly, Melissa is right.  

To be a profession it needs formal training/exams/governing body etc.  

I have a profession, and it isn't poker. In the last 11 months I haven't made any money from it, in fact I am down about 1k because I have to pay fees, and keep up with current developments in order to remain a fellow of that profession.

I can claim to be a professional poker player, and have earned more than the average wage from it (not that my earnings need to be that high to be professional), but it isn't my profession and never will be.

I'd say that professional footballers are closer than poker players to a profession, as there are formal qualifications available and there is a governing body.  

Oxford Dictionaries:

noun

    1.  a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification:his chosen profession of teaching

Note the 'especially' not 'exclusively'.

;ban;

I think it's been covered now in the twelve or so pages since I went to bed.

A professional is generally demonstrated by someone who is a member of a profession:

Solicitor
Barrister
Doctor
Surgeon
Dentist
Accountant
Surveyor
Actuary
And so on

These are the people who can sign your passport photo.

However, the definition isn't exclusive, so it can be more broadly interpreted (which I have no doubt is what was intended by OP) to include any primary source of income (i.e., a pursuit by which someone is a professional)

Seems like the mother of all digressions to me.

The kids rely on Wikipedia these days. 

Terrible how standards can fall apart in some once respected organisations.  The publishers would never let standards slip like that if they had to be members of a profession. ;)

Doobs

Are you able to answer my question on page four, no problem if you would rather keep it private I was just curious as a recreational player.

I don't play the higher stakes but wonder what the standard is like compared to lower stakes, after seeing the camels thread and looking at his stats he seemed to smash $500 heads up yet struggled with lower buy ins heads up - it's all a learning curve

A friend of mine has never worked a day in his life (now in his late thirties). He plays chess to a decent club standard in leagues and at the weekend. I assume he's on the dole.

In weekend comps, the entry fee for the section he plays in would be around £25, there would be, say, 75 runners and the prizes would be, say, £300 for first, £200 for second and £100 for third*

Every now and then, he gets in the top three and gets some money back, but it wouldn't be a guaranteed thing. He might have a 10/1 shot of cashing, if he's on his game, given that he'd often be playing against similarly rated opponents.

No one can be a professional doler (you have a job or you don't), so is he a professional chess player?


*don't ever knock poker comp rakes!

Sorry, never saw it.

I keep stats on how often I finish in the top 10%.  I think keeping stats on cashes can be misleading as some tournaments pay 10%, others 15%.  I think you should aim for higher than 11 or 12% in the top 10%, though I am down at 10.5 this year (and am something like 7% on stars recently, which isn't a place I want to be).   I can't really control profit, but know that if I keep getting to the later stages frequently enough I should make money long run.

Games tend to get tougher the higher you play.  It is definitely important to find your level.  I think you can be more sure of what your level is in cash than MTTs.  I don't play a lot of tournaments that are $500 and up and that isn't just a bankroll thing.  And I know people who can probably beat $2/$4 but play 50c/$1 because they can play more tables and make more money in total.  I know at the highest level I used to play cash at semi regularly I had to put up with a ton of variance for very little profit in the long run, and my winnings at that level may well just have been luck or variance.   I am fairly sure I am probably long run down in $500 games on the Internet (though that may be just variance too).  It is very possible that I'd be a lot better off now if I had removed the bigger games from my play over the years.

As a digression, I have seen some people's stats at the very top, and some of them seem to average only 10% in the top 10, so guess there main skill is in closing.  I think if you are finishing in the top 10% much lower than this then you are going to struggle to be profitable.

Maybe more a professional sponger?

Cheers doobs

Is someone who is a professional rugby league player incorrect when they say that their profession is "rugby league player"? 

I don't think they have to get any certificates, just be competent at what they do to a level that means they can make their income from it.

 :hello:

Welcome to blonde.

So an artist - you know, paints pictures & stuff - would not be a profession. What would they be - manual workers?

They would be an artist

Some might say......

Would they be a professional artist?

maybe, but it isn't their profession

All sorts of people can be professional. It's frequently used as a compliment, and more frequently used as a marketing tool ie.
http://www.gailspooner.co.uk/
http://thepartybelles.co.uk/
http://www.uglypugly.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Kendall_(poker_player)

They could be:

a) professional artists ("what do you do for a living?" "I'm a professional artist"); or
b) within the everyday - broader - meaning of working in the profession of being an artist.

We use all sorts of terms more broadly because of the passage of time than was intended:

-Esquire (Joe Bloggs, Esq.) should technically be reserved for a specific group of people, but it's used commonly in some circles instead of Mr.

- a Legend technically can never have existed.

- to describe something as fantastic would historically have been taken to be an insult; you're living in a dream world!

It's all fine, so long as we - and those we are communicating with - know what we are on about.

There's also a difference between:

A church - a cross-shaped building with a pointy hat;
A/the church - the congregation, parish or community; and
The Church (note the capital letter) - all of the followers of that religion.

Gotta run, but hope this helps

not even at the bottom of a drawing?

BOOM!

Construction speak itt.

I used to live in a town with two superb golf courses, both establised over 100 years ago - one was termed as being created for the gentry and professionals, probs solicitors and the like and the other came about to enable the local 'artisans' ( a word I love) meaning tradesmen, craftsmen and 'shopkeepers'.




 

To be a professional, a tradesman or to claim you have a job you need to provide something that is of value to other people, ie contribute something to society. A poker dealer, prostitute, or artist falls within this definition, as does a paid sportsman and possibly also a drug dealer. I cannot see how a poker player does.

A lot of wishful thinking ITT imo.

go into any casino and there will be unemployed people playing poker with all the money they have still thinking they are pros

orly?

just a fun scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6sARmxEuc

So what's the difference between a rugby league player and a poker player in terms of the rugby player having a 'profession' and the poker player not?

People like watching rugby league, hence something has been contributed to society?

Exactly. They have provided entertainment for other people.

poker players ensure poker dealers have jobs (the point I tried to make above)

So they are consumers. I agree.

That doesn't make them professionals - or do you think you are a professional shopper when you go to buy your groceries?

oh no, I agree they aren't professionals, I was commenting on the fact you said they add nothing to society

Poker players can do that as well.

As for contributing to society or the economy, where does all the money go that poker players spend?  Some of it goes to businesses, some of it goes to the government in tax in the form of VAT, duties, etc.

An old, now departed Law lecturer at Uni said he was banned from being allowed to do admissions interviews when it was discovered he asked a girl "an alien has landed on Earth. He approaches you and says 'I've been studying your people for some time and believe I have all-but mastered your language. There is one word I don't understand, though: book. What is a book?"

For every answer the poor candidate gave, he would parry with a counterexample.

"Er, it's a collection of papers"
"Like a folder"
"No. It is bound at one side"
"Like a filofax"
"No...it has written words in it"
"What about a picture book?"
"It doesn't have to tell a story"
"That's no help to me in understanding what it IS"


Reminds me of Thomas Gradgrind, the horrible teacher in Dickens's Hard Times, who asks a girl to 'define a horse'.

There is one word I don't understand, though: book. What is a book?"



...the same as a dollar...watch the smart arse come back from that one!!!

Its the word people without a profession use for "cool"

I have a joyous image of smurf doing the Eric Morecambe "get out of that! You can't, can yer?!" to that fellow.

He was a staggeringly clever, insightful and perceptive man. He was also a cantankerous, rude and contemptible arse. Being in a room with him was simultaneously an honour and torture.

"As for contributing to society or the economy, where does all the money go that poker players spend?  Some of it goes to businesses, some of it goes to the government in tax in the form of VAT, duties, etc."

But he's just taking spending power from someone else so it's a zero sum game.  About the only thing you can say a professional poker player adds to society is the fact he doesn't claim benefits (although I don't see why a poker player can't claim dole so maybe they do).

The only argument that they contribute to society apart from that is if they allow games to run which otherwise would not run due to lack of players.   And even then a recreational player would rather play with other recreational players given the choice.

By the way I'm not having a go at people who play full time, as it is I imagine a stressful and skilled way to earn your way in the world.  Just don't think we can log it as some kind of noble profession!

Honestly who the fuck cares whether one guy or a million guys wouldn't define playing poker as a profession?

Surely to have a job you just need to be doing something that earns you enough money to live on - what has contributing to society got to do with it?

I care!

Although I'm sure others would be who are in actual professions that are high skilled.

I agree. Dumbest derail ever.

Clicked to see why this thread could possibly have reached 14 pages then saw Aaron posted early on. .... Explained!

While I am loathe to further continue what has ultimately been a multiplicity of irrelevant derails, I do want to stress and point out that, for example, 'the medicine profession' while certainly a profession that requires intensive training and specialist knowledge isn't all inclusive.

I don't believe that you need a degree educated background to have a profession. That's a very restrictive interpretation of the literal definition.

Definitively, if you're able to be a 'professional' X, it's equally valid to claim that your profession is also 'X'.

At least, in so far as my passable grasp of the English language is concerned.

How the fk has this thread ever reached 14 pages???

It is clear in my post that, when I referred to contributing to society, I was talking about providing something of value to other people - not anything else.


It's not about spending; it's about the work you do. If you grow something, build something, provide a service, etc, you can say that you contribute to society. Full-time poker players don't generate anything. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's a great life. But let's not pretend it has anything in common with someone who has to work at a real job. It's a bit insensitive to claim that it is a job.

The thread the finally convinced me that Aaron isn't real and is just a troll account.

What took you so long? :)

There are plenty of jobs that don't add or contribute to society (beyond paying tax and not relying on handouts).

just looked back through this, lol

Just read this from the beginning after a recommendation from Tomsom. Just LOL....how has this manager to get so many posts. Who bloody cares. Aaron must be in A&E after all the bites this one got.

for one minute I thought I was going to have to announce I was german before all the aaron haters lynched me

I can confirm my wife is a professional shopper.  >:(