Title: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 01, 2013, 07:16:16 AM I always like to think I have good table etiquette, but thought about two hands where I thought it might have been bad.
situation 1 I'm at DTD for the £300 deep stack and its first few levels of day two. I'm up again an older very tight player who has 3b me and I call with 10-10. Anyway to cut a long story short the board reads 9-J-Q-10-Q, I have 10-10, he has K-K. I'm not 100% how the river played out, I either checked raised or or he raised, I shoved. Anyway, I've put him all in and as he is thinking I say "I hope you are not slowing me", I obviously know he has KK or even KA, but I want all his chips. He eventually folds and didn't hear me say it anyway. After the hand played out it was the break and some bloke from Scunthorpe called Jason I think? Said "that's poor etiquette mate" Is it? situation 2 I'm playing 1/2 cash. I can't remember board, but I had a straight of some sort on the river. I check to him hoping he will bet out again and I put my cards into a motion showing that I'm likely to fold to any bet. He eventually bets and calls my raise too and I win. Again, is this bad etiquette? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: celtic on July 01, 2013, 07:17:46 AM No and no.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: swinebag22 on July 01, 2013, 08:56:26 AM Certainly not bad etiquette when you give your hand away with the speech making his fold easy.
Second one isn't bad etiquette but if you normally move your cards in this way and fold most of the time, you are giving another tell to observant players Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Karabiner on July 01, 2013, 10:26:52 AM First one is okay but the second is a little douchey imo.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: outragous76 on July 01, 2013, 10:28:54 AM its not bad etiquette but its an incredible way to not get paid.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: TightEnd on July 01, 2013, 10:31:17 AM 1 is ok. Amazed you got paid
2 is borderline and unnecessary, bordering on angle shooting, imo. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: GreekStein on July 01, 2013, 10:32:27 AM First one is okay but the second is a little douchey imo. totally this. some speech is ok like in hand one but i would NEVER do what you did in hand 2. (edit: maybe only to jakally). Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 01, 2013, 11:51:34 AM Is definitely a tell, but in hand one, he didn't actually hear me say it, so......
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 01, 2013, 11:58:52 AM Neither of these things are hugely terrible, but neither are they very classy.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: CHIPPYMAN on July 01, 2013, 12:10:33 PM Neither of these things are hugely terrible, but neither are they very classy. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: bobAlike on July 01, 2013, 02:11:29 PM Neither of these things are hugely terrible, but neither are they very classy. ^^^ This #2 is similar to the old 'fondle your chips like you going to bet' trick as still practised by the legend that is Mickey Wernick. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: titaniumbean on July 01, 2013, 02:21:27 PM Neither of these things are hugely terrible, but neither are they very classy. 1 is pretty stupid, 2 is def douschey. expect nothing less though. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 01, 2013, 02:26:44 PM yep, thought douchey would be correct word to use!
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: WotRTheChances on July 01, 2013, 02:53:11 PM #1 is abso fine... not remotely bad in any way (except probs in a getting paid sense)
#2 is kinda low. I did this once myself when I first started playing and then realised it was kinda wrong. It depends slightly how you did it... if you're holding your cards almost over the line in a very suggestive manner (or even worse motioning you are going to fold) I think its pretty douchey... if there's just a certain way you regularly hold your cards when you are going to be folding (quite a few do esp pre) then it's fine. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 01, 2013, 02:56:05 PM #2 is kinda low. I did this once myself when I first started playing and then realised it was kinda wrong. It depends slightly how you did it... if you're holding your cards almost over the line in a very suggestive manner (or even worse motioning you are going to fold) I think its pretty douchey... if there's just a certain way you regularly hold your cards when you are going to be folding (quite a few do esp pre) then it's fine. I didn't put the cards in a over the line way or tell him, but it's hard to describe how it was, cards inunder my hands, but hand over line, which to be fair.... I do quite a lot, sometimes I fold sometimes I call, etc. So thinking about it, it's not something I do with any intention Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: bobAlike on July 01, 2013, 03:03:31 PM Having a think about it what's the difference between a footballer playing a dummy ball and #2?
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: theprawnidentity on July 01, 2013, 03:25:55 PM Hand 1: Its fine, though if you're a player who is generally quiet during hands then I would continue to be so.
Hand 2: I'm not sure if I think this is bad or not. Is it really any different from giving off a false tell? Sometimes I like to up my ebullience at the table to encourage a fold when someone starts thinking about calling, is that douchey too? I'm not sure if 'mock mucking' is any different? Also from a techincal point of view with this hand, you're doing so cause you've checked to him and want him to bet. If he has showdown value and thinks your folding anyway, you probably stop him from value betting if he thinks the bet won't get called. Conversely, if he doesn't have showdown value he will probably have to bet regardless? I don't really see what we gain in this spot by doing this. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: RED-DOG on July 01, 2013, 03:28:19 PM What pisses me off is the person to the left of the player to act does it.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: mondatoo on July 01, 2013, 03:32:18 PM Didn't Antonio get a lot of stick on here for doing the same thing on HSP ?
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 01, 2013, 03:32:45 PM One problem with any of these sort of things is that if you ever win a pot from an opponent because you somehow 'tricked' him it will almost always leave a bad taste in his mouth. Having your opponents feel like they have been tricked by a wily bit of speech play or a fake-fold, or anything else like that, is not a good thing for the long-term health of poker. No-one likes feeling that they have been sharked. It makes them feel uncomfortable and embarrassed. And it just fosters the image of ruthless pros preying on the weak players.
I prefer to be quiet during pots, and if I do ever engage in banter during a pot it is always just for fun rather than to get an edge - and I only do it when the pot is small. When a pots get big I show respect for my opponent(s) and respect for the game, by keeping my gob shut. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: redarmi on July 01, 2013, 03:42:31 PM It is pretty laughable that he called your raise after you did 2 though.....I would imagine he wasn't paying any attention.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: kinboshi on July 01, 2013, 03:57:48 PM #1 is abso fine... not remotely bad in any way (except probs in a getting paid sense) #2 is kinda low. I did this once myself when I first started playing and then realised it was kinda wrong. It depends slightly how you did it... if you're holding your cards almost over the line in a very suggestive manner (or even worse motioning you are going to fold) I think its pretty douchey... if there's just a certain way you regularly hold your cards when you are going to be folding (quite a few do esp pre) then it's fine. Had pretty much typed exactly the same as this out. So agree with whoever this is. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Kev B on July 01, 2013, 04:06:57 PM Isn't 2 just a visual bluff?
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 01, 2013, 04:43:05 PM One problem with any of these sort of things is that if you ever win a pot from an opponent because you somehow 'tricked' him it will almost always leave a bad taste in his mouth. Having your opponents feel like they have been tricked by a wily bit of speech play or a fake-fold, or anything else like that, is not a good thing for the long-term health of poker. No-one likes feeling that they have been sharked. It makes them feel uncomfortable and embarrassed. And it just fosters the image of ruthless pros preying on the weak players. I prefer to be quiet during pots, and if I do ever engage in banter during a pot it is always just for fun rather than to get an edge - and I only do it when the pot is small. When a pots get big I show respect for my opponent(s) and respect for the game, by keeping my gob shut. This. Douches gonna douche though. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Ironside on July 01, 2013, 04:54:44 PM i still remember as a newbie too the game i had entered a £500 game in dundee as was talking too simon aces trumper, i was always very chatty, and we had just been talking about a hand played at another festival where i had AK. he limped UTG and i had raised it up with KK he flatted with 22 and shoved on a low board thinking i had AK as i had stopped talking, enough too say i didnt hold . but gave me a lesson if your a chatty person at the table keep chatting when you in a pot otherwise you can give off nore tells than if you shut up.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: celtic on July 01, 2013, 05:00:02 PM So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair.
The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot. This is no different to what Aaron did IMO. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 01, 2013, 05:07:46 PM One problem with any of these sort of things is that if you ever win a pot from an opponent because you somehow 'tricked' him it will almost always leave a bad taste in his mouth. Having your opponents feel like they have been tricked by a wily bit of speech play or a fake-fold, or anything else like that, is not a good thing for the long-term health of poker. No-one likes feeling that they have been sharked. It makes them feel uncomfortable and embarrassed. And it just fosters the image of ruthless pros preying on the weak players. I prefer to be quiet during pots, and if I do ever engage in banter during a pot it is always just for fun rather than to get an edge - and I only do it when the pot is small. When a pots get big I show respect for my opponent(s) and respect for the game, by keeping my gob shut. Good point Stu, but going to hand number one, perhaps speech play isn't tricking someone or are you mostly referring to hand 2? You could use an example of board double pairs and one players says to the other "we definitely aren't splitting the pot", which could change action through speech? So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair. The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot. This is no different to what Aaron did IMO. Onto another level here Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: GreekStein on July 01, 2013, 05:08:32 PM So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair. The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot. This is no different to what Aaron did IMO. Of course it is. If the guy pretended to bet (lol) then it would be the same. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: celtic on July 01, 2013, 05:20:03 PM So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair. The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot. This is no different to what Aaron did IMO. Of course it is. If the guy pretended to bet (lol) then it would be the same. Whati mean is, Aaron is acting as if he is going to fold. The guy then thinks he can steal the pot, (not just using Aaron here, but say its against a weak player, who doesn't really realise what he is doing) so the guy bets, knowing he is behind, and its the only way he can win the pot. Is the guy that bets now being a douche? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 01, 2013, 05:22:36 PM I wouldn't be remotely offended by either and don't think it's bad etiquette at all. The problem is both are so basic theory-wise. The first is just a normal question that can't ever help "get all his chips" as you suggest. The second is nothing because cards are folded in the muck so you can wave your cards "as if to fold" if you really want to, but who would really believe that means you're weak? Nobody that's who.
Sometimes in a pot with good staring players I touch my face or lean back when strong but generally silence is the best policy imo. That said if villains want to motion a fold when they have a strong hand at the table I am ok with that. Keep calm and carry on with these skills aaron1867. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 01, 2013, 05:28:14 PM Good point Stu, but going to hand number one, perhaps speech play isn't tricking someone or are you mostly referring to hand 2? You could use an example of board double pairs and one players says to the other "we definitely aren't splitting the pot", which could change action through speech? Call it personal preference I guess. I just prefer not to say anything at all when a pot starts to get big. Maybe if I used a bit of clever speech play I might be able to get my opponent to call when he should fold (or vice versa). Or maybe it would be completely transparent and I'd end up shopping my hand and helping my opponent make a good decision. I really don't know, because I have never talked during a big pot. I consider this the most classy and respectful way to act, that's all. I have a friend who has just come home early from his first trip to Vegas because he found the clever little strokes that the US players have been tricking him with distasteful and sharky. They may think of it as 'part of the game'. But their actions have stopped this recreational player from enjoying himself and thus staying in their games. He doesn't want to play with people who do that; he doesn't want to be made a fool of, he doesn't want to feel hustled. I believe that most recreational players feel the same. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: smurf on July 01, 2013, 05:52:05 PM Good point Stu, but going to hand number one, perhaps speech play isn't tricking someone or are you mostly referring to hand 2? You could use an example of board double pairs and one players says to the other "we definitely aren't splitting the pot", which could change action through speech? Call it personal preference I guess. I just prefer not to say anything at all when a pot starts to get big. Maybe if I used a bit of clever speech play I might be able to get my opponent to call when he should fold (or vice versa). Or maybe it would be completely transparent and I'd end up shopping my hand and helping my opponent make a good decision. I really don't know, because I have never talked during a big pot. I consider this the most classy and respectful way to act, that's all. I have a friend who has just come home early from his first trip to Vegas because he found the clever little strokes that the US players have been tricking him with distasteful and sharky. They may think of it as 'part of the game'. But their actions have stopped this recreational player from enjoying himself and thus staying in their games. He doesn't want to play with people who do that; he doesn't want to be made a fool of, he doesn't want to feel hustled. I believe that most recreational players feel the same. do tell Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Boba Fett on July 01, 2013, 07:18:43 PM I actually think #1 is more douchey than #2 despite not really being "wrong", Id just think you were an ass if you did either of them
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: biggy333x on July 01, 2013, 07:22:52 PM I think you need to stop being a tool basically.
First one is £300 d/s, most players will be on to you and know what ur up to like when ppl say "jus don't raise me" etc wanting you to. You jus look like an idiot trying it on. The second one is low steaks cash game and i believe this is very dependant on the player to how much of a toolish move it is. Against a rec player ur nearly doug lee levels as he might see ur cards "over the line" and believe that they are as good as mucked thinking u might want toilet/ smoke etc and want to muck asap. Vs a reg, its you still look quite a bit of tool cos he'll see it and as soon as u flat/raise w/e knows what you were up to and now jus thinks ur a knob for trying it on. Carry on doing both it you want to as the other guy said "let rec players leave with a bad taste in their mouth" and let regs think ur a moron for doing stupid stuff like that. I think the guy telling you that it was a bit out of order was trying to tell you that you looked a prick and to stop doing it tbh even tho neither are tech against the rules they are a bit bad etiquette imo. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: SuuPRlim on July 01, 2013, 07:45:37 PM Without meaning to cause offence Aaron a couple of my friends have played with you and basically said you were awful to play with, only saying this because you brought the question of what is bad etiquette up, those two things you did are both pretty pointless - good experienced players will see straight through them, weak players will either pay no notice or be annoyed at you - I've called people out on this stuff mid-hand before btw and would do again lol
But yh, from what people have said about sharing a table with you (mostly Jamie in the DTD300 you finalled) they told me you were obnoxious, arrogant and generally pretty rude whilst playing telling people how good you were etc and belittling people after you won a pot which is very bad etiquette, I'd work on improving that and lose all these stupid lil strokes personally. Fwiw a lot of very nice people are like this at a poker tables so non real reflection on your personality at i'm basically saying lose the ego. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 01, 2013, 07:57:53 PM Without meaning to cause offence Aaron a couple of my friends have played with you and basically said you were awful to play with, only saying this because you brought the question of what is bad etiquette up, those two things you did are both pretty pointless - good experienced players will see straight through them, weak players will either pay no notice or be annoyed at you - I've called people out on this stuff mid-hand before btw and would do again lol But yh, from what people have said about sharing a table with you (mostly Jamie in the DTD300 you finalled) they told me you were obnoxious, arrogant and generally pretty rude whilst playing telling people how good you were etc and belittling people after you won a pot which is very bad etiquette, I'd work on improving that and lose all these stupid lil strokes personally. Fwiw a lot of very nice people are like this at a poker tables so non real reflection on your personality at i'm basically saying lose the ego. NO I can't believe it. He's so nice and humble when he posts on blonde! Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: gouty on July 01, 2013, 08:25:38 PM We used to have regular home game years ago at a friends house on the first Sunday of the month. There was a guy in our local who kept badgering us to let him play but he was a real mouthy guy and we kept putting him off.
Eventually he got an invite from one of the players and turns up well oiled shall we say? After 90 mins he stacked off about 4 times and berates players on how lucky they were and basically being a cock and pretty disrespectful to the guy whose flat we were in. Anyway, he is busto and no one is lending him anything so he gives us a mouthful and storms out. Not a unique story I grant you. We all carry on playing and about an hour later there is a load of banging on the door. The flat owner goes out and returns rather red faced. It was his neighbour going on about someone in the building having a dog which is against the tenancy rules. It was probably the all time classic poker etiquette faux pas. After the guy left the game he squatted on the landing and squeezed out a long jobbee outside the door to the flat. Nice. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: kinboshi on July 01, 2013, 08:28:17 PM At least he waited until he left the game...
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Cook on July 01, 2013, 08:41:21 PM First one kinda puts your hand face up but still wouldnt say it's bad etiquette..
Second i'm guilty of doing, pokers full of mind games rather than tactical play anyway so i don't personally think it's bad Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: rfgqqabc on July 01, 2013, 08:53:57 PM Without meaning to cause offence Aaron a couple of my friends have played with you and basically said you were awful to play with, only saying this because you brought the question of what is bad etiquette up, those two things you did are both pretty pointless - good experienced players will see straight through them, weak players will either pay no notice or be annoyed at you - I've called people out on this stuff mid-hand before btw and would do again lol But yh, from what people have said about sharing a table with you (mostly Jamie in the DTD300 you finalled) they told me you were obnoxious, arrogant and generally pretty rude whilst playing telling people how good you were etc and belittling people after you won a pot which is very bad etiquette, I'd work on improving that and lose all these stupid lil strokes personally. Fwiw a lot of very nice people are like this at a poker tables so non real reflection on your personality at i'm basically saying lose the ego. NO I can't believe it. He's so nice and humble when he posts on blonde! And the trollee became the trollerr! Rise above Don't really hate either. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Rexas on July 01, 2013, 09:04:38 PM I don't think I could write a comment here without it coming across as a troll, given my history :p
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: CHIPPYMAN on July 01, 2013, 09:25:30 PM Without meaning to cause offence Aaron a couple of my friends have played with you and basically said you were awful to play with, only saying this because you brought the question of what is bad etiquette up, those two things you did are both pretty pointless - good experienced players will see straight through them, weak players will either pay no notice or be annoyed at you - I've called people out on this stuff mid-hand before btw and would do again lol But yh, from what people have said about sharing a table with you (mostly Jamie in the DTD300 you finalled) they told me you were obnoxious, arrogant and generally pretty rude whilst playing telling people how good you were etc and belittling people after you won a pot which is very bad etiquette, I'd work on improving that and lose all these stupid lil strokes personally. Fwiw a lot of very nice people are like this at a poker tables so non real reflection on your personality at i'm basically saying lose the ego. NO I can't believe it. He's so nice and humble when he posts on blonde! English only please Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Tal on July 02, 2013, 12:13:22 AM Fold pre.
But seriously, I have no problem with either but I would be more impressed if you ran them as bluffs and you actually had nothing, because both of those were more likely (the way you have described them) to generate folds than calls. If #2 were a subtle movement of the cards away from your body to feign weakness (like a couple of inches tops) and a closing of your body language towards the villain (both showing weakness), different story. These sound much more obviously strength and a half decent player in 2013 will.see right through level 1 tells. As to the actually question, no issue whatsoever with either. Would it make you boyfriend material? No. Would it mean you were less of a poker player? Not to me. It isn't the height of class but speechplay is regarded as a dirty trick by those less familiar with live poker and I think that's unfair. Look at that Rastafish v PJ heads up.contest in the Grand Prix. Rastafish was full of psychological tricks, trying to get inside PJ's head and make him make mistakes in hands. PJ found a way to deal with it. That's just poker. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 02, 2013, 02:52:07 AM Yup he won flips
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 02, 2013, 03:31:43 PM Without meaning to cause offence Aaron a couple of my friends have played with you and basically said you were awful to play with, only saying this because you brought the question of what is bad etiquette up, those two things you did are both pretty pointless - good experienced players will see straight through them, weak players will either pay no notice or be annoyed at you - I've called people out on this stuff mid-hand before btw and would do again lol But yh, from what people have said about sharing a table with you (mostly Jamie in the DTD300 you finalled) they told me you were obnoxious, arrogant and generally pretty rude whilst playing telling people how good you were etc and belittling people after you won a pot which is very bad etiquette, I'd work on improving that and lose all these stupid lil strokes personally. Fwiw a lot of very nice people are like this at a poker tables so non real reflection on your personality at i'm basically saying lose the ego. Obviously Jamie took me too literally, lol. He has only shared a table once with me & me saying "I'm really good" is just me joking, any of the regulars I share with in Sheffield or any festivals will tell you I just joke when saying such things. However amused that gossiping happens really, even him and Alex took to Twitter lolz. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 02, 2013, 05:48:44 PM I think it's bad etiquette to tell people "I'm really good" if you don't mean it. You gotta say that shit with conviction aaron.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 02, 2013, 06:03:27 PM Furthermore Dave, I am pretty sure you are trying to have a pop, because I am not sure why relevant? We are both in a game where there are lots of arrogant & obnoxious players, which perhaps at times is good for yourself personally.
I think it's bad etiquette to tell people "I'm really good" if you don't mean it. You gotta say that shit with conviction aaron. ha :D :D to be fair, on that table in question, i could have been "really good" because it was a table full of poor players, got moved tables and they tore my a new one, players on there was actually good.... obviously Jamie took me too literally Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: jgcblack on July 02, 2013, 06:04:54 PM Without meaning to cause offence Aaron a couple of my friends have played with you and basically said you were awful to play with, only saying this because you brought the question of what is bad etiquette up, those two things you did are both pretty pointless - good experienced players will see straight through them, weak players will either pay no notice or be annoyed at you - I've called people out on this stuff mid-hand before btw and would do again lol But yh, from what people have said about sharing a table with you (mostly Jamie in the DTD300 you finalled) they told me you were obnoxious, arrogant and generally pretty rude whilst playing telling people how good you were etc and belittling people after you won a pot which is very bad etiquette, I'd work on improving that and lose all these stupid lil strokes personally. Fwiw a lot of very nice people are like this at a poker tables so non real reflection on your personality at i'm basically saying lose the ego. Obviously Jamie took me too literally, lol. He has only shared a table once with me & me saying "I'm really good" is just me joking, any of the regulars I share with in Sheffield or any festivals will tell you I just joke when saying such things. However amused that gossiping happens really, even him and Alex took to Twitter lolz. I know it will seem like I'm trolling here... but I'll happily admit I've never shared a table with you. However, I have heard from my group of poker friends... that you're not very pleasant to share a table with either I'm afraid. Might be that your normal poker banter doesn't come across well to people who don't know you socially - might be worth looking into. #imonetotalk #ihavechangedaskceltic I know that some of the things the people I know joke about don't work as we were chatting in The Empire and one of the cardroom managers who knows me came over and said as much - i was a bit surprised because of what we were saying but I believed him and we just kept it to our local games. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: GreekStein on July 02, 2013, 06:15:43 PM Furthermore Dave, I am pretty sure you are trying to have a pop, because I am not sure why relevant? We are both in a game where there are lots of arrogant & obnoxious players, which perhaps at times is good for yourself personally. Please don't tell me you are this shortsighted? A fellow blonde who hasn't posted ITT mentioned this thread to me on skype after I commented and said you 'acted like a bellend' when he played cash with you. You can't control how other people behave but all winning players have a responsibility to behave and act well at the table. Obnoxious and arrogant actions can cause fish and whales to steer clear of playing. A lot of guys just want to have fun while they lose their money. There's nothing wrong with that. It's how they have fun with money they are willing to lose and it's how pros make money. When Mr Fish busts his tournament and sees Aaron sat down in cash and remembers what a miserable experience the last time he shared a cash table with you was and decides to dump his money down a fruit machine or roulette table or even just sod off home, your actions have hurt everyone. The fish, the pros, the poker economy and the game. Some guys will be obnoxious. The ones who lose are losers and even the ones who win are usually losers. Don't be either. You know better and shouldn't be. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 02, 2013, 06:21:28 PM There seems to be a lot of "X player thinks you're a nob" but not posting comments. I don't even play cash that often either... twice at DTD... can't remember anything that happened in those games.
I don't think arrogance and so on keeps people away from the game, etc. There are hundreds of arrogrant players playing this game. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: CHIPPYMAN on July 02, 2013, 06:47:11 PM There seems to be a lot of "X player thinks you're a nob" but not posting comments. I don't even play cash that often either... twice at DTD... can't remember anything that happened in those games. I don't think arrogance and so on keeps people away from the game, etc. There are hundreds of arrogrant players playing this game. I don't think u r arrogance dude , maybe just a troller !! Lol Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 02, 2013, 07:04:46 PM I read this great post in Tikay's diary (chopped out the irrelevant stuff)
Played Limit Stud O8 yesterday, was tremendous fun. Did no good, but really enjoyed it, & I have the taste & want to play more of it now. The Tables I was on (4 different ones, I ended up, I think, 13th of 80), were so much fun. On the first, there was a Lady, mid sixties, very mascauline, who threw a right strop every time she lost a hand. I so wish she had worn a hoodie. Proper nutcase. Latee, a middle-aged Jewish chap was the greatest fun ever. he was King Chunter, he chuntered & moaned non-stop. First, in a three way pot, Player A scooped the lot, & Jewish Chap then blamed the third player in the pot for "taking my cards". When were you still in the Pot, chasing the low, you took my ace you schmock. I win the hand if you fold". Third platyer fires back at him, & they go off on one. Later, the Jewish chap got horribly coolered, he had been dealt wired aces, & filled up on 5th street, & played it cute. Unbeknown to him, 80 year old Black Chap, seen it all before, had wired deuces, & hit QUADS on the river! Well, you've never heard such a moan in your life, he stood up, shouted, went & told everyone in the room, chunter chunter chunter. I could not help myself, I just burst out laughing at the sheer comedy, as did everyone else, so he kicked off again. He busted shortly after, & trundled away, still chuntering to himself. What fun Limit Stud O8 is, you get a really eccentric crowd playing that stuff. That really sets the scene doesn't it? The fun in live poker is in the diversity of people who converge at a table to create a unique experience. Seemingly everybody at the table had great fun despite all the moaning and shouting. In fact the bell-end behaviour was funny and only added to the experience. So I totally reject this tripe about how individuals have a duty to conform and an obligation to preserve the poker economy. If everybody did the same thing staying silent and motionless it would be piss boring. When I first started I had intense motivation to bust bell-ends, I didn't run home crying cos somebody said "I hope you're not slowrolling", and I bet that's the case for most new players. In fact if people want to improve etiquette and do their bit to preserve the poker economy they should stop burying theirs heads in online poker when they're playing live and start engaging with people to help create this unique human experience. And stop taking 20 mins over every frigging decision as well. Given the choice of playing some arrogant young kid who thinks he's the bee's knees or some internet mute who's dribbling into his laptop I know which I'd prefer. Unless behaviour is outside the rules people should be happy to let the garden grow rather than hoovering around tidying everybody up imo. Be who you want to be aaron. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: tikay on July 02, 2013, 07:08:31 PM I read this great post in Tikay's diary (chopped out the irrelevant stuff) What? WHAT? **** you. There is NO irrelevant stuff in my Diary, or washers, or cooker knobs. If you ever Final a WSOP thing, I'm so gonna anti-rail you. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: tikay on July 02, 2013, 07:12:52 PM More seriously, though, Live Poker is full of fun, & if anyone does not get that, they'd best quit now. I've met more characters on the tables this trip than enough, old & young, fat & thin, black & white, hoodies hats & wigs, I have a thousand fun stories to tell. Some of the Dealers have been truly awful, some brilliant, ditto the players, including the very best & the very worst. The whole experience has been nothing short of wonderful, I'd not have missed it for the world. There have been ups & downs, good & bad, it's what Live Poker is about, surely? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 02, 2013, 07:20:34 PM Perhaps I don't seem my apparent (which ghost people are saying) bad etiquette? Perhaps I say this in such a manner that I think I have good etiquette because I take losing with premiums in such good grace. Who knows!
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: jgcblack on July 02, 2013, 07:22:57 PM There seems to be a lot of "X player thinks you're a nob" but not posting comments. I don't even play cash that often either... twice at DTD... can't remember anything that happened in those games. I don't think arrogance and so on keeps people away from the game, etc. There are hundreds of arrogrant players playing this game. This exact post and attitude is the kind of stuff Greeky is trying to warn you about. You need to stop, take a breath and LISTEN! Posting comments or quotes or suchlike doesn't help, and won't matter without context. This isn't a trial with evidence, you've come on here and asked about two situations where you've tried to 'cleverly' trick your opponents with a fairly obvious and obnoxious ruse. Truth be told, anyone good enough to fold here anyways will recognize your conduct and anyone not able to realize it will probably not be affected by your talk and it makes no difference. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 02, 2013, 07:44:20 PM There seems to be a lot of "X player thinks you're a nob" but not posting comments. I don't even play cash that often either... twice at DTD... can't remember anything that happened in those games. I don't think arrogance and so on keeps people away from the game, etc. There are hundreds of arrogrant players playing this game. This exact post and attitude is the kind of stuff Greeky is trying to warn you about. You need to stop, take a breath and LISTEN! Posting comments or quotes or suchlike doesn't help, and won't matter without context. This isn't a trial with evidence, you've come on here and asked about two situations where you've tried to 'cleverly' trick your opponents with a fairly obvious and obnoxious ruse. Truth be told, anyone good enough to fold here anyways will recognize your conduct and anyone not able to realize it will probably not be affected by your talk and it makes no difference. You see, it comes a bit "simple" when people say this person and that person, like Dave said it was "they" and by the end of it, it was "him", meaning Jamie Sykes. Greeky mentions cash & someone elses comments aor opinion of me, that I do not say is wrong, but I do not play cash that often, in actual fact twice at DTD and one of those times was well before I was on here and the second I can't remember anything in such a situation where I would be called a "bell end" lol. Having thought about the 2 hands again and again and posted here to see what you guys thought and I am open to criticism, in hand 2 I have realised that this is something I do when I am calling or in actual fact, I sometimes fold too. There is nothing to be taken back from that. But you mention trick in such a way which makes me look like an absolute con merchant, what about those who hold their cards in such a ways to say "I'm not going to call you, but I would like to see the river card, so let me look as if I am going to call you", is that such a trick? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Magic817 on July 03, 2013, 12:11:40 AM Aaron, I only "know you" from your posts on blonde and haven't had the "pleasure" of sharing a table with you.
Option 1 is everyone is picking on you and you have done nothing wrong at the tables (a bit like with your posts where you appear to think everyone picks on you) Option 2 is you don't come over well on the tables I think the op helps with the answer I am not saying you have to make friends with everyone at the table but can you win with a bit of class or is this too old fashioned a way of thinking? We all want to win but in my opinion there is a way to do it. Banter at the tables is great and one of the benefits of playing live rather than online. For me it boils down to the fact that we have one chance at life, how do you want to be remembered? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: SuuPRlim on July 03, 2013, 12:27:17 AM Aaron, I am not having a pop, you asked if what you did was bad etiquette, which means either a) you were told what you did was bad and you're trying to prove it wasn't, or b) you genuienly care that you are behaving properly.
If its a) which seems VERY likely to be the case then w/e I say is irrelevant, if its b) then I am telling you that more than one person has commented to me, in private that sharing a poker table with you is unpleasant. If they are wrong then fair enough but that is what I have been told and when you asked for opinions I gave you mine, with a little bit of evidence. And I was not gossiping, as much as I'd like it to be otherwise I have a lot more pressing things to spend my time doing than discussing your table behavior lol If someone told me what I've told you I'd be devastated, if you don't care then that is abso fine as well, no hard feeling just answering th question you asked. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 12:39:51 AM Dave, you make a point, but then you back it up with Jamie, which does make it a bit lol.
Magic makes a good point though. However not trying to back up what I did or I wouldn't have asked, personally think both are slightly douchey. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Boba Fett on July 03, 2013, 12:42:59 AM Do you think everyone is lying to you?
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 12:47:46 AM Do you think everyone is lying to you? Nope, but I find it all a bit weird really. I can't respect an opinion from Jamie, sorry. With regards to cash, I've only played cash twice @ DTD, so bit miffed to who it could be. If people think this, then I'm genuinely disappointed. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 01:09:06 AM Have you ever played cash in another casino apart from DTD?
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 01:09:43 AM Pattern emerging.
I'm not going to say why, because I'm pretty sure people will go into meltdown if I went into detail. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: pleno1 on July 03, 2013, 01:11:07 AM Do you think everyone is lying to you? Nope, but I find it all a bit weird really. I can't respect an opinion from Jamie, sorry. With regards to cash, I've only played cash twice @ DTD, so bit miffed to who it could be. If people think this, then I'm genuinely disappointed. Saying this and then not why is pretty ool Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 01:49:59 AM I'm not just saying this because he's a friend nor to gang up on Aaron, but I doubt you could find many people have a bad word to say about Jamie Sykes. He's a gent and a class act.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 01:52:03 AM Nope, nothing to do with that thread.
Like I said, Jamie takes it too literally, anyone who I've played witb often knows what I say is to be taken lightly, Jamie played once and took it to heart what I said. Yes, incredibly classy Alex...... lol Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: celtic on July 03, 2013, 01:55:57 AM I shared a table with Aaron once, for about an hour, he hardly said a word, he probably doesn't even know we have shared a table. I wouldn't be able to say he was great table company, based on that one experience, so I think it's a bit unfair to see he is shit table company based on a small sample.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 02:03:36 AM Nope, nothing to do with that thread. Like I said, Jamie takes it too literally, anyone who I've played witb often knows what I say is to be taken lightly, Jamie played once and took it to heart what I said. Yes, incredibly classy Alex...... lol so Jamie reported you trolling and I told him to whack you (btw that means win a big pot off/ stack you in my circles NOT physically whack you lol - though can see how it might look). No big deal I don't think. And this is BS anyone who I've played witb often knows what I say is to be taken lightly half the people that play with you regularly have told me they think you deserve a slap for the way you act and treat people. The other half are probably just waiting for the chance! Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: rfgqqabc on July 03, 2013, 02:09:38 AM I shared a table miti Aaron and whilst I don't think he played fantastic I think he was a good person to have at the table. Anyone who called him a bellend from a few hour sample is wrong, I would say that about very few people I'd shared a table with. Meh bit daft this topic, either you agree with what Aaron did/does or not. Within the rules just a bit dirty.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 02:11:18 AM Oh Alex, all the November results stuff & me being in the calendar really gets to you doesn't it lol, any chance you get you and the gang come along! :D
You say half, can you nane them? If we was to go on about table etiquette for players you met the first time, then you would be up there with bad etiquette too, I remember sharing a table with you and your utter classlessness. But I don't go on first times on playing with people, people have changed my mind the next time. Take Barry a evilly for instance beats me in a hand, then instantly goes for a fag. The next time, he beats me again, then plays his blind then goes for a fag. He gave me the opportunity to beat me the hand after, plus gave me a good deal on a jumper Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 02:18:46 AM Oh Alex, all the November results stuff & me being in the calendar really gets to you doesn't it lol, any chance you get you and the gang come along! :D You say half, can you nane them? If we was to go on about table etiquette for players you met the first time, then you would be up there with bad etiquette too, I remember sharing a table with you and your utter classlessness. But I don't go on first times on playing with people, people have changed my mind the next time. Take Barry a evilly for instance beats me in a hand, then instantly goes for a fag. The next time, he beats me again, then plays his blind then goes for a fag. He gave me the opportunity to beat me the hand after, plus gave me a good deal on a jumper You're entitled to your opinion and Im entitled to mine. The difference is that I've never been accused of acting without class (at least not in the last few years, I was bad when I was 18/19 I'm the first to admit), whereas you've been accused many many times, as is evident itt Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 02:30:15 AM Alex, how can you say you're not classless after what you've just done earlier today in your staking thread? Another hypocritical post.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 02:33:11 AM Alex, how can you say you're not classless after what you've just done earlier today in your staking thread? Another hypocritical post. Cos that wasnt classless. Imo ;) I gotta sign out from this debate I'm afraid, the Vegas night beckons. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: dreenie on July 03, 2013, 02:58:18 AM I've never played with you before Aaron. If you did it to me I wouldn't care as much as I would 2 yrs ago, but I would just think you were pretty silly.
Obviously table talk/speech play is allowed, I just don't see the need to use it to gain an advantage if u are good. To me it just shows no real class. Like I said I have never played with you, but this thread is turning into a complete joke, can't people just stop bitching at everyone? Like aaron if you don't like what ppl say, just keep it to yourself, and others if u don't like aaron just don't comment in his thread? you are grown men ffs! I don't know what to believe anymore, but what I will say is until I've seen it with my own eyes, I'll have no opinion on the character of certain people mentioned ITT. Agree with Alex about people growing up & becoming a nicer person for playing with at a table, I use to be a nutcase, I was rude, used to get angry when players called me with bad hands and generally no fun to play against. I guess age, playing thousands of hands online & learning to ignore certain players that will try to wind u up to get a reaction has taught me to become a nicer person at the tables. This, plus the fact there is just more to life and I would hate someone to walk away from the table not having enjoyed there experience, because of the way I have acted at the tables. Think all this bitching between one another needs to stop, like Dubai said in another thread, there is no way that everyone is going to get on with everyone, just relax yourselves. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: pleno1 on July 03, 2013, 03:01:21 AM I'm very sociable at the table but I say things like don't arise me so much! I'm usually super weak lol
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 03:09:48 AM I don't want people to start or stop posting just because of their like or dislike of me, it is what it is. Perhaps there is a little bit of me that is disappointed in lildave comments, because not sure why that is relevant really and thread has gone down a different road.
Quite clearly Alex just wants to have a go, but there you go, genuinely lold at the classless comment though, considering his nonsense today., But like jjandelis said, got to focus on what has been said even the negatives too. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: WotRTheChances on July 03, 2013, 03:10:26 AM Seems pretty pointless to make a thread about etiquette to find out if what you have done is wrong, only to be told that yes, peope you've played with have found your behaviour poor, to then just be super-defensive and basically say that you're not going to listen or that people need to provide more evidence because you don't agree or w/e.
As lil' Dave said... i'd be pretty gutted if someone told me they found my behaviour at tables to be OOL. I'd be looking to make a conscious effort to improve it in future, regardless of if I considered my behaviour to be OOL or not (its pretty irrelevant if several others believe it to be... it clearly doesn't look good). You haven't said anything to hint you might feel that way, so what's the point in having this discussion. If you're happy with your conduct and don't mind if other aren't its end of discussion. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: dreenie on July 03, 2013, 03:16:50 AM I don't want people to start or stop posting just because of their like or dislike of me, it is what it is. Perhaps there is a little bit of me that is disappointed in lildave comments, because not sure why that is relevant really and thread has gone down a different road. Quite clearly Alex just wants to have a go, but there you go, genuinely lold at the classless comment though, considering his nonsense today., But like jjandelis said, got to focus on what has been said even the negatives too. That's the whole point tho, u know the score between u and Alex, u wind him up as much as he winds u up, your not stupid people. He wasn't classless fwiw, but if I was Keys, I would be angry to have it put out in the open like that, as assumed they were v.good friends. At the end of the day Alex had his own personal reasons why he put it out there, and that's none of mine neither yours business. However what u have done is about how to conduct yourself at a table etc, so it's completely different? You both give as good as u get I'm afraid. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: dreenie on July 03, 2013, 03:17:30 AM Seems pretty pointless to make a thread about etiquette to find out if what you have done is wrong, only to be told that yes, peope you've played with have found your behaviour poor, to then just be super-defensive and basically say that you're not going to listen or that people need to provide more evidence because you don't agree or w/e. As lil' Dave said... i'd be pretty gutted if someone told me they found my behaviour at tables to be OOL. I'd be looking to make a conscious effort to improve it in future, regardless of if I considered my behaviour to be OOL or not (its pretty irrelevant if several others believe it to be... it clearly doesn't look good). You haven't said anything to hint you might feel that way, so what's the point in having this discussion. If you're happy with your conduct and don't mind if other aren't its end of discussion. And +1 to all of this Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 03, 2013, 06:59:11 AM It's funny because itt there are a lot of people happy to voice their opinions about etiquette and correct behaviour. Yet not a single one of these people appear in Alex's WSOP staking thread to voice their opinion about etiquette and correct behaviour.
So people are simply using this very minor point about arrogance to beat aaron with a stick simply because it's aaron. I mean shock horror there's a young arrogant kid at the poker table, who'd have thought it? In terms of what I think constitues classy behaviour it's consistency and fairness. I think if you pick and choose who you chastise based on who you like best it says a lot about your own values imo. Where are all you brave heroes of etiquette and good behaviour when it's somebody more popular than aaron? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: SuuPRlim on July 03, 2013, 08:17:27 AM Aaron I don't dislike you at all, I actually really enjoy your posting on blonde to be brutally honest, and you're responsible for my favorite ever post on blonde :P
I'm just saying what I think based on the evidence I have, people have said things to me about you, and tbh given the tone of your posts on here I'm not at all surprised. As for not respecting opinions from Jamie that is actually kinda irrelevant, more than one person has said the exact same thing Jamie said to me about you the only reason I mentioned him is because i know 100% he wouldn't mind me using him as a reference but other who have said similar things might and it's not my place to share conversations that took place in private on a public board. Saying that Jamie takes it too literally and for that reason his opinion is worthless is pretty dumb though, Jamie is very experienced player and he will be very aware of how your behavior and attitude affects the other players at the table. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: WotRTheChances on July 03, 2013, 01:59:39 PM It's funny because itt there are a lot of people happy to voice their opinions about etiquette and correct behaviour. Yet not a single one of these people appear in Alex's WSOP staking thread to voice their opinion about etiquette and correct behaviour. So people are simply using this very minor point about arrogance to beat aaron with a stick simply because it's aaron. I mean shock horror there's a young arrogant kid at the poker table, who'd have thought it? In terms of what I think constitues classy behaviour it's consistency and fairness. I think if you pick and choose who you chastise based on who you like best it says a lot about your own values imo. Where are all you brave heroes of etiquette and good behaviour when it's somebody more popular than aaron? Pretty much disagree with all of this. I don't think anyone here has really 'beaten Aaron with a stick' ITT. He has actively chosen to create a platform for people to discuss his etiquette at the tables and people have given constructive advice given what they've heard (I don't think many ITT have shared a table with Aaron and have made that clear). I think regardless of who it was people would say if they had similar experiences with other Blondes. As for Alex's staking thread. Only read it once, but don't see what the big fuss is about? People bought %s but didn't pay anywhere close to the deadline he set, so he let people know and freed up the shares? Didn't seem too bad to me.... and I'm usually the first to tell Alex when I think he's being a douche Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: CHIPPYMAN on July 03, 2013, 02:16:25 PM It's funny because itt there are a lot of people happy to voice their opinions about etiquette and correct behaviour. Yet not a single one of these people appear in Alex's WSOP staking thread to voice their opinion about etiquette and correct behaviour. So people are simply using this very minor point about arrogance to beat aaron with a stick simply because it's aaron. I mean shock horror there's a young arrogant kid at the poker table, who'd have thought it? In terms of what I think constitues classy behaviour it's consistency and fairness. I think if you pick and choose who you chastise based on who you like best it says a lot about your own values imo. Where are all you brave heroes of etiquette and good behaviour when it's somebody more popular than aaron? Pretty much disagree with all of this. I don't think anyone here has really 'beaten Aaron with a stick' ITT. He has actively chosen to create a platform for people to discuss his etiquette at the tables and people have given constructive advice given what they've heard (I don't think many ITT have shared a table with Aaron and have made that clear). I think regardless of who it was people would say if they had similar experiences with other Blondes. As for Alex's staking thread. Only read it once, but don't see what the big fuss is about? People bought %s but didn't pay anywhere close to the deadline he set, so he let people know and freed up the shares? Didn't seem too bad to me.... and I'm usually the first to tell Alex when I think he's being a douche I thought Keys is ur employer ? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 03, 2013, 03:21:55 PM It's funny because itt there are a lot of people happy to voice their opinions about etiquette and correct behaviour. Yet not a single one of these people appear in Alex's WSOP staking thread to voice their opinion about etiquette and correct behaviour. So people are simply using this very minor point about arrogance to beat aaron with a stick simply because it's aaron. I mean shock horror there's a young arrogant kid at the poker table, who'd have thought it? In terms of what I think constitues classy behaviour it's consistency and fairness. I think if you pick and choose who you chastise based on who you like best it says a lot about your own values imo. Where are all you brave heroes of etiquette and good behaviour when it's somebody more popular than aaron? Mantis, I realise you enjoy swimming against the tide, playing devil's advocate, sometimes (shock horror) even being controversial. It's your thing, and I kinda dig it. But I think you sometimes get carried away with yourself and end up trying to make contrary points for the sake of it, rather than because they are good points. IMO hardly anyone has said anything out of line in this thread. People (including me) have given their opinions on the two issues that Aaron has asked about, that's pretty much all. Fair enough, there have been a few additional comments made about Aaron's persona at the table, but they don't read as mean and horrible to me. They seem constructive and helpful. Lil'Dave started this line of discussion off I think, and I am 100% sure he would never do this maliciously... he was just trying to HELP Aaron. I personally have no problem at all with Aaron. I think he is a really valuable part of the blonde community, and his presence on the forums makes Blonde a better place. In the past I have spoken privately to several regular posters about their attitude to Aaron and told them they were being a bit out of line towards him. Don't really think they listened, but then they are young... and, to paraphrase you, "shock horror there's a young arrogant kid posting his thoughts on a forum, who'd have thought it"! I don't think people are being inconsistent or unfair. Well, maybe some of them are a little bit sometimes. But then people are not perfect and are still learning. Also, you implied that Aaron is not especially popular on this forum and I disagree. I think Aaron is hugely popular on Blonde. Many people (including myself) enjoy engaging with him, and are very keen to offer him help and advice whenever he wants it - and sometimes when he doesn't! When people stop giving a shit about what he says, that is when he should start to worry. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 05:55:17 PM It's funny because itt there are a lot of people happy to voice their opinions about etiquette and correct behaviour. Yet not a single one of these people appear in Alex's WSOP staking thread to voice their opinion about etiquette and correct behaviour. So people are simply using this very minor point about arrogance to beat aaron with a stick simply because it's aaron. I mean shock horror there's a young arrogant kid at the poker table, who'd have thought it? In terms of what I think constitues classy behaviour it's consistency and fairness. I think if you pick and choose who you chastise based on who you like best it says a lot about your own values imo. Where are all you brave heroes of etiquette and good behaviour when it's somebody more popular than aaron? Well this is a thread where the OP has asked about his etiquette. Mine is a staking thread. So it's pretty clear in which thread people voicing their opinions about etiquette belong. Also, perhaps no-one thinks there's anything to criticise in that thread? It was pretty simple. People didn't pay up for a big chunk of action and after a few weeks extension and grace, and after no communication I decided to cancel their percentages and sell them on to others, whilst being transparent about what I was doing. It says so much about the gambling world if I get stick for doing that, whereas those that welched get protected and defended. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 03, 2013, 05:57:00 PM Yo Stu I don't think my point about enjoying the diversity of people and the unique human experience live poker creates is contrary, it's a strong valid point. Just because I don't agree with you or indeed the majority isn't really controversial, it's just different. You and Dave want to help aaron be more socially acceptable at the tables and I want to help him be himself. The way I see things if people aren't breaking any rules, just ruffling a few feathers, then that is ok in the game of poker. It might not be pat-a-cake pleasant, but it is ok, and I enjoy seeing people lose their minds at the poker table. Like Tikay I find it all very funny.
Anyway, maybe we are reading different threads cos you say.... People have given their opinions on the two issues that Aaron has asked about, that's pretty much all Yet a selection of the "constructive and helpful comments" I read.... half the people who play with you regularly have told me you deserve a slap You are obnoxious, arrogant, and pretty rude I’ve heard that you’re not very pleasant to share a table with You need to stop being a tool You looked a prick Awful to play with Douches gonna douche Douchey…expect nothing less Sweet that so many people want to "help" this lad with the two issues he asked about. Considering many thought his conduct was perfectly ok I would suggest those comments are relatively harsh and actually nothing to do with the issues he raised. It is just general chastisement of a lol hugely popular figure. That said if people want to offer general chastisement of hugely popular figures why stop at this thread? As far as I can see Alex sold shares for Vegas in May and having flown over he was still waiting payment of 4 figs from some quarters. Having attempted to communicate with those fellas he was ignored. This meant he had to scramble to re-sell pieces in a saturated market. Now I don't know if that's how you and Dave do business Stu, and I don't know cos both of you ain't said anything about it. I think if you guys want to "help" with poker stuff then choosing minor issues like this to comment on isn't really going to set the world alight. Maybe you should both try getting a bit carried away with yourselves and get your teeth stuck into more telling matters? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 06:10:47 PM Dave, I didn't say you didn't like me, etc. I was just saying unsure why you added a different dimension to topic. I asked for two specific situations & it goes off topic....
Alex LOL. You made a staking thread, instead of saying I've opened up X%, you make a little drama out of it, then mention about $$ you have given to Keys' horses, why is that not classless? You could have just cancelled % in private and opened up the %, without the drama. It was classless, perhaps hilarious too. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 06:20:08 PM People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out?
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: redsimon on July 03, 2013, 06:24:04 PM People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out? THis obviously is 100% true, not sure how its being compared tbh Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Nit Tendencies on July 03, 2013, 06:24:24 PM You're beyond help, so I'm not going to waste my time trying.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: SuuPRlim on July 03, 2013, 07:19:07 PM That said if people want to offer general chastisement of hugely popular figures why stop at this thread? As far as I can see Alex sold shares for Vegas in May and having flown over he was still waiting payment of 4 figs from some quarters. Having attempted to communicate with those fellas he was ignored. This meant he had to scramble to re-sell pieces in a saturated market. Now I don't know if that's how you and Dave do business Stu, and I don't know cos both of you ain't said anything about it. I think if you guys want to "help" with poker stuff then choosing minor issues like this to comment on isn't really going to set the world alight. Maybe you should both try getting a bit carried away with yourselves and get your teeth stuck into more telling matters? lol Mantis. I did comment on Alex's thread, was kinda tongue in cheek comment but pretty sure it made my opinion on the correct way to handle that situation pretty obvious. I'm sure you think all I do is sit at home clicking buttons running equities and talking geeky poker with my geeky mates and therefore have all this time to busy-body around on blonde I thought my initial post which started the discussion was in context of the thread, maybe it wasn't, in which case my bad but none of it was a personal attack on Aaron even though i'm sure you think it was. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 03, 2013, 07:27:31 PM lol SuuPRlim. I think you're one of the best posters on the forum and haven't read a single post of yours which I've considered malicious or a personal attack on anyone, so think again about the things you're sure of.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: SuuPRlim on July 03, 2013, 07:49:38 PM lol SuuPRlim. I think you're one of the best posters on the forum and haven't read a single post of yours which I've considered malicious or a personal attack on anyone, so think again about the things you're sure of. alrite, my bad x Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: tikay on July 03, 2013, 07:50:47 PM lol SuuPRlim. I think you're one of the best posters on the forum and haven't read a single post of yours which I've considered malicious or a personal attack on anyone, so think again about the things you're sure of. alrite, my bad x Can I have a kiss or two, too? Well jealous now. xx Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: theprawnidentity on July 03, 2013, 07:57:43 PM (http://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3889994752/hCF50248E/)
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 08:02:37 PM I only make these threads so that pleno comes in the rail
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: tikay on July 03, 2013, 08:12:43 PM I only make these threads so that Padpick Loapard (Plinop) comes in the rail FYP Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: NEWY on July 03, 2013, 08:47:52 PM LOL. WTF? How on earth can his actions be bad etiquette? Maybe a little douschey and maybe a little pre school poker but never bad etiquette. I want people to puff their cheeks and shake their head as if the Ace landing was the worst card in the world just before they move all in. Its a game of deception and if he wants to try and decieve (long as not cheating) then go for it but most likely he will end up costing himself because most will see straight through such nonsense.
If people who go to vegas and leave early are put off playing by these clever little moves (REALLY??????) then i suggest poker is not the game for them. Also when they realised they were being tricked why didnt they just switch reverse that shit and take advantage? As for these little tricks/ strokes/ moves harming the long term game.....LOL.... how long have people done this for and how long do we have to wait for the harm to be done to take effect. Numbers dont seem too affected by it so far and correct me if I am wrong but aaron didnt invent these moves. As for aaron being rude/un pleasant at the tables thats totally different because its not related to winning at poker. I dont know him but if it were me I would perhaps consider what people are saying and maybe try and see if there anything I could do diffferent. It not terribly important to me to be liked at the table or in real life but I am a firm believer in "Its nice to be nice" and "manners cost nothing" I would not want to be disliked. For the most part I think aaron is harmless and at 1st was guilty of trollin without realising. Now (espescially with alex) I think he plays up to his role rather well. He defo writes without engaging brain 1st but also knows what he writes will fuel some debate. Alex being accused of bein classless for re sellin % of package due to non payment doesnt even deserve a dignified response. Another case of aaron playing his role of alexs personal troll I feel. Alex should be flattered. Wish I was important enough to have a troll. Lastly can I ask Aaron where are you from or where u were schooled? From the way u write I always imagine writing from a tower in a castle in translyvannia wearin a comedy dracula outfit. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Karabiner on July 03, 2013, 09:07:39 PM How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette?
Oxymorons ITT. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: NEWY on July 03, 2013, 09:16:24 PM How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. Douchey = Idiotic / stupid Bad etiquette = Not nice / rude EasilyconfusedTrying2Bsmart ITT Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: RED-DOG on July 03, 2013, 09:21:25 PM douchey
Pronunciation: /ˈduːʃi/ (also douchy) Definition of douchey adjective (douchier, douchiest) informal, chiefly North American (typically of a man or his behaviour) obnoxious or contemptible: Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: TightEnd on July 03, 2013, 09:22:51 PM How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. Douchey = Idiotic / stupid Bad etiquette = Not nice / rude EasilyconfusedTrying2Bsmart ITT Its a bit pedantic of me, but I think most people will think they are one and the same Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: redarmi on July 03, 2013, 09:30:22 PM People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out? I have really tried not to comment on this as I didn't want to derail your staking thread but as you have brought it up here I think you behaved pretty appallingly in the way that you went about that whole thing. Firstly, there were six days until you play the event. Neither party has knocked/grimmed you they just haven't paid you yet and whilst you have every right to ask for payment two weeks in advance or whatever it was all parties are in Vegas and presumably fairly easy to track down. The classy way to deal with it if you were genuinely worried about it would have been to go and find them and have a quiet word with them in person and tell them that you really want the money in advance (I am still not sure why you need it two weeks in advance tbh and giving someone thousands to sit in their pocket in Vegas doesn't seem a great idea to me and that is no reflection on you just a general point). If they are then unable or unwilling to pay then just tell them you will open up the thread again. To call them out in a public forum at this point in the process is unfair imo especially in a business that requires a bit of leeway on these things. I will give you an example. I asked to buy a piece of a couple of players for the ISPT and then came to the UK for a couple of weeks and forgot my bank code thing so I couldn't ship. I contacted them both and both agreed to let my piece stand and for me to just ship it to them after the event. They didn't have to but I have had numerous transactions with both so presumably they figured that I was good for it which was nice but if they had just said okay I will sell it to someone else which happened in another spot that week that would have been fine too. I would, however, have been extremely pissed off if they had wrote that I had welshed on my agreement or was unable to pay them or words to that effect especially if that led to Dubai coming on and saying how I owed him a monkey and haven't got around to paying him etc etc because your reputation if pretty much all you have in this game and it would really take a lot for me to put someone elses reputation in danger. Of course it may be that there are issues with one or both parties but it is still a few days before the event and I just feel as though it could have been handled with so much more class. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: NEWY on July 03, 2013, 09:33:05 PM How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. Douchey = Idiotic / stupid Bad etiquette = Not nice / rude EasilyconfusedTrying2Bsmart ITT Its a bit pedantic of me, but I think most people will think they are one and the same Yes it is pedantic and why would you assume on behalf of others that they also think they are one and the same when they are not. People being douchey could be acting a clown in a nice way, even in an entertaining way or certainly in a way that is not offending, some of the most fun people I know are douches and not rude or offending in the slightest, but I do appreciate you taking the time to try and point out that I might not be as clever as urself. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: TightEnd on July 03, 2013, 09:35:22 PM Wow
Is it a full moon? stepping away...... Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 03, 2013, 09:35:51 PM If people who go to vegas and leave early are put off playing by these clever little moves (REALLY??????) then i suggest poker is not the game for them. But that's the whole point! We want poker to be a game that everyone can enjoy, not just certain people who are able to cope with/enjoy all the unsavoury stuff that certain players do. The vast majority of people would be put off by some of the stuff that happens at the poker table. I don't want poker to be a game that only certain people (like myself) can enjoy. I want everyone to be able to enjoy their poker whilst feeling comfortable at the tables. As for these little tricks/ strokes/ moves harming the long term game.....LOL.... how long have people done this for and how long do we have to wait for the harm to be done to take effect. Numbers dont seem too affected by it so far I strongly believe that many thousands of potential new players have been put off poker due to the bad attitude and behaviour of a (substantial) minority of players. And I don't mean recently. This is something that has happened for many years, going back to before the poker boom. Once upon a time poker (at least in this country) was very much a minority pursuit. Hardly anyone played the game, it had a seedy image, and was not seen as something that a 'normal person' would take up as a hobby. Part of the reason for this was due to the behaviour of many players at the table. I remember when I first started to play poker. Every night I played I would be at a table of scumbags - drug dealers, cheats, gangsters, loan sharks, thieves, psychos, thugs. Their behaviour was often terrible; rude, threatening, intimidating etc. Even the 'respected pros' tended to be unwelcoming and hostile, as well as pulling little strokes on me to exploit my naivety. Like Mantis, I actually got off on this. I didn't like these people, but I did kind of like the feeling of excitement and danger that came with gambling in this atmosphere. However, I would have been in a minority - the vast majority of 'normal people' would have found it a massive turn off to be playing in such an atmosphere, and to have been treated in such a way. Then TV/Moneymaker/Online created a fairly substantial change in poker's image and led to an 'artificial' growth in poker's popularity. Suddenly it became almost fashionable, and many new players from all background/walks of life started to become interested in the game. Many potential new players were probably still turned off the game immediately by the crap they encountered, but there were so many new guys trying it out that enough of them stuck around to create a vibrant and healthy poker economy in the UK. Eventually, the old-school gangster types became massively outnumbered by the new breed of players, many of them fairly young. Poker had become almost mainstream. It had certainly become civilised. The problem is that the poker boom is now over. And we are still in recession. The games are not what they once were. Five years ago it did not seem essential to ensure that players were not turned off poker, since there were so many new players entering the scene every day. This is no longer the case. Another problem is that it turns out that some of the new breed of players display characteristics which are just as detrimental to the long-term health of poker as those displayed by the gangsters. Some of the things they do are actually exactly the same as the old-school idiots... after all, idiots are the same everywhere. Other things are unique to the new breed - for example, the new players tend not to threaten and intimidate, but they do ostracise their customers with their hoodies and headphones and five minute dwells. I am all for characters at the table. I just think it is better if we have nice characters who are friendly, welcoming and classy. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: RED-DOG on July 03, 2013, 09:38:26 PM How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. Douchey = Idiotic / stupid Bad etiquette = Not nice / rude EasilyconfusedTrying2Bsmart ITT Its a bit pedantic of me, but I think most people will think they are one and the same Yes it is pedantic and why would you assume on behalf of others that they also think they are one and the same when they are not. People being douchey could be acting a clown in a nice way, even in an entertaining way or certainly in a way that is not offending, some of the most fun people I know are douches and not rude or offending in the slightest, but I do appreciate you taking the time to try and point out that I might not be as clever as urself. Douchey post imo. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 03, 2013, 09:45:42 PM 1. If you're invited to a fancy dress party and decide to go as Alan Titchmarsh that's pretty douchey, yet it isn't poor etiquette.
2. If you put up a business proposal in the month of May specifying that the deal is to be paid before you fly in the month of June why should you have to chase people around Vegas in the month of July? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: NEWY on July 03, 2013, 09:55:01 PM @ Honeybadger .. But we were talking about aaron faking to pass.. not the wild west of the past or I would agree with u. In every walk of life u will encounter good and bad people and as is the case in poker I belive the majority of people are good and certainly in a rec sense play for the right reasons and in the right manner. We will never live in a world where evryone can be kept happy so no point worrying about such a miniscule minority that are put off by these trivial nuances. Where do u draw the line. Should people be allowed to look fake sad or throw a fake smile should they not huff and puff when they are holding the nuts? If we really want to make the recs (of which I am 1) happy should we just state when they are beat and when they ask us if have hit our straight just tell them the truth?
@ Tighty Hooowwwwwllllllllll. I on my period. @ Reddog I will assume u mean the good fun playful type of douchey and not tightends horrible nasty interpretation of douchey Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Tal on July 03, 2013, 09:58:50 PM Pipe down, wannabe pedants, with your wanton pedantry. We need to concentrate on the important stuff.
How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. That isn't an oxymoron; at worst, it's a contradiction. Perhaps, at a squeeze, a paradox. If the terms aren't in conjunction, we have to find another way of linguistic pigeon fancying. Fo shizzle. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 03, 2013, 10:02:19 PM @ NEWY
You can draw the line wherever you want I guess. In my earlier posts in this thread all I said about the two incidents in question was that 'they are not especially terrible, but neither are they especially classy'. That's all I really think about them tbh. If people want to do that sort of thing then it is not a huge problem, not a massive deal. But I simply prefer not to ever do stuff like that and I gave my reasons why. It is just my personal philosophy, that's all. Others can act as they want. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: NEWY on July 03, 2013, 10:07:02 PM @ NEWY You can draw the line wherever you want I guess. In my earlier posts in this thread all I said about the two incidents in question was that 'they are not especially terrible, but neither are they especially classy'. That's all I really think about them tbh. If people want to do that sort of thing then it is not a huge problem, not a massive deal. But I simply prefer not to ever do stuff like that and I gave my reasons why. It is just my personal philosophy, that's all. Others can act as they want. I agree and hope I didn elude to anythin else. (in before its prob wrong use of elude)... Peace Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Karabiner on July 03, 2013, 10:16:27 PM Pipe down, wannabe pedants, with your wanton pedantry. We need to concentrate on the important stuff. How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. That isn't an oxymoron; at worst, it's a contradiction. Perhaps, at a squeeze, a paradox. If the terms aren't in conjunction, we have to find another way of linguistic pigeon fancying. Fo shizzle. I would suggest that it is an open secret that you have clearly misunderstood my exact estimate of this situation leading to a conspicuous absence of unbiased opinion although I'm pretty sure that you do have an unconscious awareness of my seriously funny side. This is doubtless old news though. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: SuuPRlim on July 03, 2013, 10:18:02 PM I know for sure that people have been put off playing in live poker games by the things mentioned ITT, and I know this because people have said, completely without influence from me "I am not going to play at X because of these little strokes, or bad table behavior" These are people i've known a long time and trust as well, So unless everyone is lying to me about everything then its kinda tough to disagree that it happens, just because it doesn't affect you.
1. If you're invited to a fancy dress party and decide to go as Alan Titchmarsh that's pretty douchey, yet it isn't poor etiquette. Brilliant. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Tal on July 03, 2013, 10:30:35 PM Pipe down, wannabe pedants, with your wanton pedantry. We need to concentrate on the important stuff. How can things be a little douchey but not bad etiquette? Oxymorons ITT. That isn't an oxymoron; at worst, it's a contradiction. Perhaps, at a squeeze, a paradox. If the terms aren't in conjunction, we have to find another way of linguistic pigeon fancying. Fo shizzle. I would suggest that it is an open secret that you have clearly misunderstood my exact estimate of this situation leading to a conspicuous absence of unbiased opinion although I'm pretty sure that you do have an unconscious awareness of my seriously funny side. This is doubtless old news though. Much better. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 03, 2013, 10:47:31 PM Kinda think if everyone was the same, friendly, welcoming and classy it would be like an artist having only one colour on his palette. If you have a full spectrum of colours you can paint more interesting and appealing pictures.
A guy I've played with who people will know is Lawrence Gosney. This guy intimidated the feck out of me first time I played him and has prob put off many new players, yet what a fabulously interesting guy to have at the table. Friendly and welcoming? Nah, don't think so, but a great colour to have on the palette all the same. Btw aaron might be a troll but I like that colour too, he's got us all chatting right? And no Herbie is like having no blue, what the feck can you do with no blue. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: stato_1 on July 03, 2013, 11:01:49 PM People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out? I have really tried not to comment on this as I didn't want to derail your staking thread but as you have brought it up here I think you behaved pretty appallingly in the way that you went about that whole thing. Firstly, there were six days until you play the event. Neither party has knocked/grimmed you they just haven't paid you yet and whilst you have every right to ask for payment two weeks in advance or whatever it was all parties are in Vegas and presumably fairly easy to track down. The classy way to deal with it if you were genuinely worried about it would have been to go and find them and have a quiet word with them in person and tell them that you really want the money in advance (I am still not sure why you need it two weeks in advance tbh and giving someone thousands to sit in their pocket in Vegas doesn't seem a great idea to me and that is no reflection on you just a general point). If they are then unable or unwilling to pay then just tell them you will open up the thread again. To call them out in a public forum at this point in the process is unfair imo especially in a business that requires a bit of leeway on these things. I will give you an example. I asked to buy a piece of a couple of players for the ISPT and then came to the UK for a couple of weeks and forgot my bank code thing so I couldn't ship. I contacted them both and both agreed to let my piece stand and for me to just ship it to them after the event. They didn't have to but I have had numerous transactions with both so presumably they figured that I was good for it which was nice but if they had just said okay I will sell it to someone else which happened in another spot that week that would have been fine too. I would, however, have been extremely pissed off if they had wrote that I had welshed on my agreement or was unable to pay them or words to that effect especially if that led to Dubai coming on and saying how I owed him a monkey and haven't got around to paying him etc etc because your reputation if pretty much all you have in this game and it would really take a lot for me to put someone elses reputation in danger. Of course it may be that there are issues with one or both parties but it is still a few days before the event and I just feel as though it could have been handled with so much more class. Don't know anymore about the situation but it seems like Alex has done all the stuff you are suggesting. He has seen Flushy who didn't pay, and messaged both telling them their percentage would be cancelled if they didn't pay soon. Don't really see what else he could have done? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 11:04:56 PM Not made a drama out of it.
Why mention $$$ given to keys horses? Obv trying to make him look bad Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 11:13:19 PM People need to be called out in public for this sort of thing in my opinion. If I seller did something equivalent he would get buried, why should buyers not get called out? I have really tried not to comment on this as I didn't want to derail your staking thread but as you have brought it up here I think you behaved pretty appallingly in the way that you went about that whole thing. Firstly, there were six days until you play the event. Neither party has knocked/grimmed you they just haven't paid you yet and whilst you have every right to ask for payment two weeks in advance or whatever it was all parties are in Vegas and presumably fairly easy to track down. The classy way to deal with it if you were genuinely worried about it would have been to go and find them and have a quiet word with them in person and tell them that you really want the money in advance (I am still not sure why you need it two weeks in advance tbh and giving someone thousands to sit in their pocket in Vegas doesn't seem a great idea to me and that is no reflection on you just a general point). If they are then unable or unwilling to pay then just tell them you will open up the thread again. To call them out in a public forum at this point in the process is unfair imo especially in a business that requires a bit of leeway on these things. I will give you an example. I asked to buy a piece of a couple of players for the ISPT and then came to the UK for a couple of weeks and forgot my bank code thing so I couldn't ship. I contacted them both and both agreed to let my piece stand and for me to just ship it to them after the event. They didn't have to but I have had numerous transactions with both so presumably they figured that I was good for it which was nice but if they had just said okay I will sell it to someone else which happened in another spot that week that would have been fine too. I would, however, have been extremely pissed off if they had wrote that I had welshed on my agreement or was unable to pay them or words to that effect especially if that led to Dubai coming on and saying how I owed him a monkey and haven't got around to paying him etc etc because your reputation if pretty much all you have in this game and it would really take a lot for me to put someone elses reputation in danger. Of course it may be that there are issues with one or both parties but it is still a few days before the event and I just feel as though it could have been handled with so much more class. Don't know anymore about the situation but it seems like Alex has done all the stuff you are suggesting. He has seen Flushy who didn't pay, and messaged both telling them their percentage would be cancelled if they didn't pay soon. Don't really see what else he could have done? Yeh I did all those things? Neither of them responded to messages about it, and when I asked flushy in person if he had the money he just said "no", not even a "not right now, I'll have it tomorrow/next week" or "actually do you mind if I pay a bit late". Just "no". I didn't want to have to wait for a day before the event to sweat it out, then have to either look to raise ~$2k investment last minute or just risk being freerolled. I thought a week before the event was an appropriate amount of time to wait before looking for alternative backing. Can't see anyway that your example relates to the situation at all since you have agreed something in private and both parties have come to an understanding and know the score in advance - the complete opposite of my situation. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 03, 2013, 11:16:15 PM Kinda think if everyone was the same, friendly, welcoming and classy it would be like an artist having only one colour on his palette. Like I said, I personally sort of agree with you. I enjoy playing with all sorts of people and used to find it exciting to enter the gangster-filled games back in the day. But I don't think this is the case for most people. Also of course, you can be a real character without being a dick. Which brings me to... A guy I've played with who people will know is Lawrence Gosney. This guy intimidated the feck out of me first time I played him and has prob put off many new players, yet what a fabulously interesting guy to have at the table. Friendly and welcoming? Nah, don't think so, but a great colour to have on the palette all the same. Lawrence is a perfect example of my point. And perhaps it proves that we actually agree with each other. The way Lawrence behaves at a table is brilliant for the game. He is funny as fuck, extremely charismatic, and actually hugely classy in his own unique way. He 'gets it'. Like I said, nothing wrong with characters, and I certainly don't want to make poker staid and clinical. It is just better for all of us if people are helped to learn how to behave in ways that are conducive to the long-term health of the game. And Lawrence is an example of someone who does exactly this... he just does it in a unique way. You bringing up Lawrence as an example makes me suspect that we actually have the same viewpoint, but are sort of misunderstanding each other... Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: WotRTheChances on July 03, 2013, 11:16:24 PM Not made a drama out of it. Why mention $$$ given to keys horses? Obv trying to make him look bad Yer obvsiously it's a tiny bit of a vent as he's done Keys a favour and is annoyed he hasn't got the $$. I don't think either party has been malicious or not paid/written it up on blonde in a horrible way, they have had many dealings in the past. I feel like it's worse to not pay on an investment than to publicly say 'i've not been paid, does anyone else want to buy this %'. Like I said, it's not a massive issue from what I can see, just a bit of laziness and quick re-selling. I don't see how you can say he's shown poor etiquette and is trying to make him look bad, when WHAT ARE YOU DOING BRINGING IT UP?! Obv he's no saint and you both give as good as you get on occasions, but pointing fingers in this way is pretty joke childish. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Dubai on July 03, 2013, 11:18:01 PM The word freerolled is thrown about too much IMO; if for example Flushy said got no cash on me should have it by main, if not sort u after. Do you consider that a freeroll? I mean because obv it isn't as there's close to 0 chance of him disappearing and never paying u $1500. So I think you mean a different word from freeroll, maybe replace it with late payment? Calling one in? Credit? Anything u want other than getting freerolled cos that's complete nonsense IMO and id happily vouch for the $1500 long term and I think Jamie Reeve even vouched and said he would pay for it instantly.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: horseplayer on July 03, 2013, 11:22:57 PM what percentage of the average poker players time is taken up with having disputes about who owes who money?
genuinely interested Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 03, 2013, 11:29:10 PM Yeah Stu you're prob right. You construct your arguments so well I just try and de-construct them. Is that trolling or just good debate?
In case of any doubt my behaviour at the poker table has always been classy and I've never had a cross word with anyone in 11yrs. Just like having the odd bell-end at the table, sorry. I like table thumpers too. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Dubai on July 03, 2013, 11:29:24 PM I rarely see disputes. The people I deal with know the score if i owe them, ie they get it when have it. And same if someone owes me. People don't chase me and I don't chase them, if I'm taking the piss and spraying champagne over the walls whilst owing then its different and likewise if someone owes me but is playing high rollers on their own dough etc then it's a bit much but the money always gets paid back at some point
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 11:32:51 PM The word freerolled is thrown about too much IMO; if for example Flushy said got no cash on me should have it by main, if not sort u after. Do you consider that a freeroll? I mean because obv it isn't as there's close to 0 chance of him disappearing and never paying u $1500. So I think you mean a different word from freeroll, maybe replace it with late payment? Calling one in? Credit? Anything u want other than getting freerolled cos that's complete nonsense IMO and id happily vouch for the $1500 long term and I think Jamie Reeve even vouched and said he would pay for it instantly. You might, but I have no reason to think that. I don't know him, can't remember a single dealing with him in the past (maybe one tiny one a long time ago) and from rumours and clues going about, I have every reason to worry imo. I don't mean to knock a mate of yours, and I'm sure you'll defend his honour in his absence, as I would for my friends, but you know him well, I don't. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Dubai on July 03, 2013, 11:33:30 PM Basically some people get it and some don't. A bit of a generalisation of those that don't is to say young lads newish to gambling who are fortunate enough to never go on the big downswing and need to borrow or ask for assistance from others financially. Id say the longer you are in gambling the more you get it but don't want it turning into an old school v new school argument. I would say poker players from a gambling background get it more than poker players whose first experience of gambling was poker, but that's only my opinion
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Honeybadger on July 03, 2013, 11:33:50 PM Yeah Stu you're prob right. You construct your arguments so well I just try and de-construct them. Is that trolling or just good debate? No that's just your Mantis-stylee!! And I dig it BTW. You troll ;) Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 11:37:50 PM I rarely see disputes. The people I deal with know the score if i owe them, ie they get it when have it. And same if someone owes me. People don't chase me and I don't chase them, if I'm taking the piss and spraying champagne over the walls whilst owing then its different and likewise if someone owes me but is playing high rollers on their own dough etc then it's a bit much but the money always gets paid back at some point Yeh I can see you guys operate in that way, and that's 100% fine and I respect that. I envy you in a way, because I'm not as relaxed as that and things like this worry me. I hate owing people money, and I hate being owed money. I remember when I paid you within minutes a long time ago and you commented on how quick I paid up and I said that I hate owing people money. You quipped "it gets easier with age", which I thought was v funny, but it's just not how I'm built. There's my really close friends, perhaps 10 people who I happily have a "tab" with, and we never chase debts and just keep on going tabs and they always get paid up if they get big or someone needs the cash for any reason. Anyone outside of that, I feel uncomfortable owing/being owed so would just rather sort things straight away or look for an alternative, and I'm afraid Flushy falls into that category with me, as would most people. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: titaniumbean on July 03, 2013, 11:39:35 PM The word freerolled is thrown about too much IMO; if for example Flushy said got no cash on me should have it by main, if not sort u after. Do you consider that a freeroll? I mean because obv it isn't as there's close to 0 chance of him disappearing and never paying u $1500. So I think you mean a different word from freeroll, maybe replace it with late payment? Calling one in? Credit? Anything u want other than getting freerolled cos that's complete nonsense IMO and id happily vouch for the $1500 long term and I think Jamie Reeve even vouched and said he would pay for it instantly. You might, but I have no reason to think that. I don't know him, can't remember a single dealing with him in the past (maybe one tiny one a long time ago) and from rumours and clues going about, I have every reason to worry imo. I don't mean to knock a mate of yours, and I'm sure you'll defend his honour in his absence, as I would for my friends, but you know him well, I don't. this this this. The amount of business you end up doing with people who you actually know pretty much fk all about is insane. And if people are reticent to speak up when they feel they have been wronged or at least a situation is going a bit tits up then that lack of information can have huge impacts on other people. edit specifically remembering that you basically know fk all about their financial situation apart from what is said on staking threads etc. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: horseplayer on July 03, 2013, 11:40:28 PM thanks Dubai
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Dubai on July 03, 2013, 11:40:33 PM The word freerolled is thrown about too much IMO; if for example Flushy said got no cash on me should have it by main, if not sort u after. Do you consider that a freeroll? I mean because obv it isn't as there's close to 0 chance of him disappearing and never paying u $1500. So I think you mean a different word from freeroll, maybe replace it with late payment? Calling one in? Credit? Anything u want other than getting freerolled cos that's complete nonsense IMO and id happily vouch for the $1500 long term and I think Jamie Reeve even vouched and said he would pay for it instantly. You might, but I have no reason to think that. I don't know him, can't remember a single dealing with him in the past (maybe one tiny one a long time ago) and from rumours and clues going about, I have every reason to worry imo. I don't mean to knock a mate of yours, and I'm sure you'll defend his honour in his absence, as I would for my friends, but you know him well, I don't. The rumour being he took a stupidly large % of a player in a tough comp whose ev was debatable, no need to have this discussion because this wasnt my opinion, as a favour/punt, ( in fact whose girlfriend was renting flushys second room for a ridiculously low rate at the time)- had the money at time , every intention of paying, player doesn't collect and Vegas does what Vegas does. Player then hounds him for the money and he pays part of it and says will sort rest when can Flushy is too generous. Has been too generous to me lifewise, too generous in business and loves taking large amounts of bad %s. He ain't a grimmer and would happily give his last money in the world to friends, I've witnessed this Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 11:42:13 PM Basically some people get it and some don't. A bit of a generalisation of those that don't is to say young lads newish to gambling who are fortunate enough to never go on the big downswing and need to borrow or ask for assistance from others financially. Id say the longer you are in gambling the more you get it but don't want it turning into an old school v new school argument. I would say poker players from a gambling background get it more than poker players whose first experience of gambling was poker, but that's only my opinion Feels a bit patronising to say I don't get it because I don't operate on that level. I wouldn't dream of asking someone I didn't know to "put it on the tab, I'll pay you when I have it", over any amount of money, let alone 4 figures. Especially since that person is playing $5k buyins left right and centre and the same time. Maybe we're getting our wires crossed - read my last post! I DO envy you for that relaxed way of dealing with things, it's just not me. Not yet anyway, and I feel that you should respect that. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Dubai on July 03, 2013, 11:48:37 PM I didn't want it to come across as patronising as I said its only my opinion and my way of seeing things, and as said earlier I get that other people see things differently and that's fine.
Don't think you should let him have it on tab, just better communication needed between you- I'd have just said listen mate if you ain't got it tell me now so I can resell it, and then u can go two ways- either no momey no percent or say if you think you will have it by time main starts give me a % chance of that, if you ain't got it by then its either cancelled or il let u have it this one time but don't let me down, it's our first transaction that wouldn't be right etc Can't believe you can't shift 10% of main with a days notice even with price being 1.5 I could have sold higher than I did easily and could have sold way higher 5 minutes before main starts but I like rewarding regular buyers Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 03, 2013, 11:48:49 PM Not made a drama out of it. Why mention $$$ given to keys horses? Obv trying to make him look bad Yer obvsiously it's a tiny bit of a vent as he's done Keys a favour and is annoyed he hasn't got the $$. I don't think either party has been malicious or not paid/written it up on blonde in a horrible way, they have had many dealings in the past. I feel like it's worse to not pay on an investment than to publicly say 'i've not been paid, does anyone else want to buy this %'. Like I said, it's not a massive issue from what I can see, just a bit of laziness and quick re-selling. I don't see how you can say he's shown poor etiquette and is trying to make him look bad, when WHAT ARE YOU DOING BRINGING IT UP?! Obv he's no saint and you both give as good as you get on occasions, but pointing fingers in this way is pretty joke childish. I'm purely bringing it up for the fact that Alex has fallen over himself to have a go here. He's made a comment of "you lack class" in this thread, then I decided to point out what a hypocrit be is. All this thread was created for was to ask opinion on 2 situations and it has gone down a totally different route. I knew Alex & cronies would come along to have a pop just before I created. However this has gone down a different avenue for the reason of Dave's comments regarding Jamie., which was not relevant really to topic, well not fully anyway. Now I have numerous people saying X person has said this, Y person has said this and Z person this too, and others have felt the need to carry it on. People can't say I can't take criticism but I can, I wouldn't have posted it if I wasn't open to views. I have already admitted that the two hands was very douchey and you make good comments that regular and good players would see through it. But thread is Lolz and I blame pleno. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 03, 2013, 11:56:03 PM I didn't want it to come across as patronising as I said its only my opinion and my way of seeing things, and as said earlier I get that other people see things differently and that's fine. Don't think you should let him have it on tab, just better communication needed between you- I'd have just said listen mate if you ain't got it tell me now so I can resell it, and then u can go two ways- either no momey no percent or say if you think you will have it by time main starts give me a % chance of that, if you ain't got it by then its either cancelled or il let u have it this one time but don't let me down, it's our first transaction that wouldn't be right etc Can't believe you can't shift 10% of main with a days notice even with price being 1.5 I could have sold higher than I did easily and could have sold way higher 5 minutes before main starts but I like rewarding regular buyers I don't really know how I could have communicated better, I sent pms, and spoke to him in person. He ignored pms, and all but ignored me in person (just saying "no i dont have it). Yeh I could've sweated it out a bit longer and probably waited till the day before and still sold out, but I didn't want the stress and didn't want to risk it. And why should I? Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Dubai on July 04, 2013, 12:00:19 AM I'd have just taken him to one side saying need a word and sorted it out. Even if I'd never met someone that's what I'd have done, if he mugs u off then its his fault but I'd assume u were pretty relaxed about asking him and maybe in a group etc. not trying to make excuses for him but its easy just to say what the hell going on mate, if you ain't got it just say, rather than just sheepishly asking if he has the $$ on him. He is far from innocent from what you've said as he should handle it better but people can be caught at bad times and stuff. I just think people need to sort stuff out one on one rather than all this childish stuff on here and social media etc
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: robyong on July 04, 2013, 12:06:57 AM James Dempsey = Absolute top bloke, known him for 10+ years, backed Blondepoker with is own poker winnings, backs numerous poker players to help them out, helps out his mates, supports DTD - was first person to buy into CPP - he gave me €6k for the CPP six months in advance, never minds picking up the tab for everyone, always pays more than his way and never asks for anything in return - can't speak more highly of him in terms of integrity. As for James Keys, well, is there anyone more straight in poker, I doubt it. Disappointed that this stuff is on Blonde really. Cheers Rob
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: aaron1867 on July 04, 2013, 12:14:07 AM wow, I'm sure Flushy will be very happy with Alex saying "there were rumours"
Such class! Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: claypole on July 04, 2013, 12:38:32 AM James Dempsey = Absolute top bloke, known him for 10+ years, backed Blondepoker with is own poker winnings, backs numerous poker players to help them out, helps out his mates, supports DTD - was first person to buy into CPP - he gave me €6k for the CPP six months in advance, never minds picking up the tab for everyone, always pays more than his way and never asks for anything in return - can't speak more highly of him in terms of integrity. As for James Keys, well, is there anyone more straight in poker, I doubt it. Disappointed that this stuff is on Blonde really. Cheers Rob End thread. All this. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Tal on July 04, 2013, 12:44:52 AM It's all got so far from the OP it's ridiculous.
There's plenty of room in this world for people who are owed money to decide how best to deal with that situation. Whatever the logic, it can't best be on a 'How was my etiquette on these two hands?' thread. If a "Scamming" thread is what is deemed best, informing the community about a welched bet or a theft, that is the owner's choice, however unsavoury the whole thing is, some people believe in transparency as a means to an end. FWIW, I've not seen anything ITT to convince me anyone is stealing or scamming, not that this was ever close to the point of the thread. There are obviously issues between people that need sorting out, but sorting out between those involved and coming on here and calling out as a thief/grimmer/whatever is an absolute last resort (perhaps meritorious, warranted or even necessary, but a last resort nonetheless). I barely know anyone on blonde, so can't and won't give character references, as there are plenty who can do that. The point Dubai makes about people who come from gambling is really interesting. Every dog track in the country has a mythical white fiver that passed between punters for years that no one ever actually saw; it was just an IOU that got punted and lost repeatedly. It is a different world to the electronic records of online betting and poker. But the two coexist now and that's why agreements between parties are for the parties to set out, quantify and enforce. Money is a tough thing to deal with, especially a lot of it. It corrupts good people and yet it enables the same good people to do truly great things. People, just be nicer to each other. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 04, 2013, 12:45:52 AM James Dempsey = Absolute top bloke, known him for 10+ years, backed Blondepoker with is own poker winnings, backs numerous poker players to help them out, helps out his mates, supports DTD - was first person to buy into CPP - he gave me €6k for the CPP six months in advance, never minds picking up the tab for everyone, always pays more than his way and never asks for anything in return - can't speak more highly of him in terms of integrity. As for James Keys, well, is there anyone more straight in poker, I doubt it. Disappointed that this stuff is on Blonde really. Cheers Rob That's all very well, but I haven't known him for 10 years, I don't know him at all. I could speak very highly of lots of my friends who you wouldn't know, but I'd never expect you to just let them put a 4 figure investment on the tab based on my word. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Royal Flush on July 04, 2013, 12:47:39 AM I've replied on his staking thread obviously so big mis understanding has gone on as I have not received a message for him.
For the record the one time I saw him I was playing a tournament and walked past his table on way back from bathroom. Said hello but obviously couldn't stop and chat as was playing. I said I have it for him but not on me. Am sure we can sort it out, just seems he's been listening to Keys drone on and on and eventually it's seeped into his head. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: cambridgealex on July 04, 2013, 12:58:22 AM PM sent, let's meet up tonight in Rio and have a drink and sort this. I've tried to do what I thought was best but everybody sees things in slightly different ways.
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: paulhouk03 on July 04, 2013, 01:12:38 AM Lol@thread
It's all hand bags glore ATM I don't understand how all of Aaron's threads escalates to 10+ pages True trolling at its best Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: CHIPPYMAN on July 04, 2013, 01:55:31 AM Aaron , now see what u have done ! Even the owner of Dtd have to come out and vouch for someone. Troller ... Lol
Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: MANTIS01 on July 04, 2013, 07:43:00 AM James Dempsey = Absolute top bloke, known him for 10+ years, backed Blondepoker with is own poker winnings, backs numerous poker players to help them out, helps out his mates, supports DTD - was first person to buy into CPP - he gave me €6k for the CPP six months in advance, never minds picking up the tab for everyone, always pays more than his way and never asks for anything in return - can't speak more highly of him in terms of integrity. As for James Keys, well, is there anyone more straight in poker, I doubt it. Disappointed that this stuff is on Blonde really. Cheers Rob Real sorry to hear you are "disappointed" with our discussion. But don't worry, now that you've waved your hand to signal disappointment Tighty will be frantically looking for ways to delete the thread. @Flushy - If you make a commitment to somebody it's your job to chase them, it ain't their job to chase you. I am sure you are an "absolute top bloke" like Rob says and wp for buying into the CPP early, but anyway back to the point, the bottom line is you have an obligation to communicate your intentions clearly. It is obv that a young kid like Alex would be fretting over this and not communicating your intentions will make him feel small and insignificant. Personally I would be "disappointed" if you didn't appreciate that cos people at the top of the food chain should be setting the standard for the rest of us, esp in this higly visible format. Title: Re: Is this bad etiquette? Post by: Magic817 on July 04, 2013, 08:29:27 AM James Dempsey = Absolute top bloke, known him for 10+ years, backed Blondepoker with is own poker winnings, backs numerous poker players to help them out, helps out his mates, supports DTD - was first person to buy into CPP - he gave me €6k for the CPP six months in advance, never minds picking up the tab for everyone, always pays more than his way and never asks for anything in return - can't speak more highly of him in terms of integrity. As for James Keys, well, is there anyone more straight in poker, I doubt it. Disappointed that this stuff is on Blonde really. Cheers Rob Real sorry to hear you are "disappointed" with our discussion. But don't worry, now that you've waved your hand to signal disappointment Tighty will be frantically looking for ways to delete the thread. @Flushy - If you make a commitment to somebody it's your job to chase them, it ain't their job to chase you. I am sure you are an "absolute top bloke" like Rob says and wp for buying into the CPP early, but anyway back to the point, the bottom line is you have an obligation to communicate your intentions clearly. It is obv that a young kid like Alex would be fretting over this and not communicating your intentions will make him feel small and insignificant. Personally I would be "disappointed" if you didn't appreciate that cos people at the top of the food chain should be setting the standard for the rest of us, esp in this higly visible format. Does it not get boring Mantis? |