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Title: Rankings changes Post by: doubleup on January 22, 2006, 01:28:52 PM Don't know if this has been posted before, but there have been some changes in the points system presumably to reflect the achievement of getting to the final table of the big events.
Also "Tournaments which do not have dealers for all tables will not qualify as ranking events. (introduced 2006)" Anyone have any thoughts on how many uk events will be knocked out? Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 04:03:14 PM i think the dealer rule is good
nothing worse than going to a festival and finding that your paying upto £50 and having to deal yourself Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 04:04:21 PM are they still allowing events that barr wheelchair users to hold ranking events?
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Newmanseye on January 22, 2006, 04:06:09 PM There are events that actually Barr wheel chair users?
I am sure this is against new legislation. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 04:34:33 PM well if you were in a wheelchair would you want to be lifted up a flight of stairs?
there are casinos without lifts and basically the only way in is by breaking health and safety and getting lifted up and down by something that would not be covered on there insurance having been dropped down a flight of stairs once and broken my neck (with no recompence from the hotel as they werent insured ) its something i am reluctant to do under the present legistaltion (UK only) reasonable attempt to offer a service to a disabled person where ecomically viable should be made if i was to be carried up a flight of stairs at a casino the casino could be in breach of health and safety and there insurance and could result in them losing there abilty to serve the rest of you so basically i am barred and therefore any casino without proper facilty for the disabled should be removed from the rankings (although there is nothing wrong with them having festivals the festivals shouldn't have points awarded to them) Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: RED-DOG on January 22, 2006, 05:19:03 PM ;iagree;
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Royal Flush on January 22, 2006, 10:49:58 PM I don't agree.
I don't see what diffrence it would make. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 11:09:23 PM i do at present people in wheelchairs are at a disadvantage as most people can pick 10 events from xxxx events a year wheras we can only pick 10 events from xxxx - yyyy (where xxxx is the number of ranking events a year and yyyy is the number that are upstairs) so this means we dont get the same chance as the able bodied person
so basically it means the abled bodied person have a head start over the wheelchair users guess we could call it your handicap Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: madasahatstand on January 22, 2006, 11:27:45 PM i assume you have contacted john shipley about this. what did he say?
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 11:34:19 PM no never contacted john shipley but i did contact john shoreman who said tough i cant be bothered checking which casinos have access and which ones dont
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: The Baron on January 22, 2006, 11:40:44 PM no never contacted john shipley but i did contact john shoreman who said tough i cant be bothered checking which casinos have access and which ones dont Word for word? Even if it's along those lines that is outrageous! Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 11:42:14 PM cant remeber exactly the words but it came down to that
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: The Baron on January 22, 2006, 11:46:01 PM I feel a blonde petition coming on....
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 22, 2006, 11:48:19 PM here is word for word quoted from his forum
Quote from: John Shoreman Dear Ironside, My apologies for not replying to your letter but this is the first time I have read your grievances, I never received the email you sent. Firstly I would like to state that I think you (and all other wheel chair users) have every right to play in all poker tournaments around Europe, and everything should be done to give you suitable access. I find it a disgrace that there are venues that do not offer suitable access. I don’t think it right or fair that you criticise the rankings for what essentially is a grievance you (rightly) have with certain casinos. If we were to exclude casinos that did not have adequate wheel chair access this would mean that I would be responsible for inspecting all the casinos in Europe to see if the complied. This is a job I am not qualified for, and so would have to employee someone who was. This would have to be done on an on going basis to ensure that casinos continued to comply. This is cost that would be too prohibitive. You have pointed out the problems that wheel chair users have, which is understandable as it affects you directly. But what about all the other people that some casinos discriminate against? For example, many asthma sufferers do not attend casinos that allow smoking in the card rooms because this affects them badly. Should we exclude card rooms that allow smoking because they discriminate against asthma sufferers? Whilst I have every sympathy with your situation, I do not think the European Rankings should exclude casinos on the grounds that you give. If there is anything I can do to help wheel chair users get better access to casinos (without removing their ranking status, which I don’t think would motivate them enough to do anything anyway) I would be happy to discuss this with you. Regards Jon Shoreman Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: The Baron on January 22, 2006, 11:56:00 PM tough i cant be bothered checking which casinos have access and which ones dont I wouldn't go that far mate. Whilst it is feckin unfair I think Shoreman's hands seem to be tied in this case. If he takes non wheelchair access casinos out of the rankings system he's likely to just piss off a different group. (ie able bodied locals/regulars to those casinos) He's in a lose-lose spot here. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: GURNFISH on January 23, 2006, 12:02:04 AM The people that do the rankings are not breaking the rules that lay down so tough. That will be the stance of the majority on here if they are conssistent. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 23, 2006, 12:10:06 AM so the euro rankings should read
" european poker rankings where wheelchair users start at a disadvantage" because i thought poker was a sport that anyone could play on an equal footing yet the only ranking system in europe has an unfair disadvantage to wheelchair users his arguement on smoking doesnt hang fire as health and safety wont shut a casino down for people smoking but health and safety WILL close a casino down if they start lifting people up and down stairs in an unsafe manner with no insurance. if casino found they never got ranking points and the locals got upset then GREAT thats what I want so that the casinos get access put in (there are plenty of ways of doing it but some are as pleasing to the eyes as others) stair climbers are used to get wheelchair users on and off smaller airplanes and could easy be adapted for most staircases so there is no excuses and just remember abled bodies people today are tomorrows wheelchairs users just waiting to happen espically with more and more people living longer and longer Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: The Baron on January 23, 2006, 12:15:52 AM I hear you mate, and I agree. I just cant see him pissing one group off to aid another.
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 23, 2006, 12:19:03 AM Quote from: john shoreman If we were to exclude casinos that did not have adequate wheel chair access this would mean that I would be responsible for inspecting all the casinos in Europe to see if the complied. This is a job I am not qualified for, and so would have to employee someone who was. This would have to be done on an on going basis to ensure that casinos continued to comply. This is cost that would be too prohibitive. basically thats is summed up by i cant be bothered because all that he needs to do before listing a comp as a ranking event is phone up say "hi i am a wheelchair user and wish to play some poker will there be any problems" simple answer will come back i normally do this myself before going to a casino and havent been told a lie by anyone yet Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 23, 2006, 12:20:32 AM oh if john cant afford to employ someone to do this i will do it free of charge for him now there is no reason why it can be done
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Ironside on January 23, 2006, 12:27:40 AM btw its a good job i am a fish at poker cause if i ever got interviewed by a tv crew after a ranking event i wouldnt hold back
Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Newmanseye on January 23, 2006, 12:48:07 AM Ironside, I think there is a case here for discrimination, Having had 2 family members that have been confined to wheelchairs I can relate to the challenges you face. How can you be expected to compete on a fair and equal level as the other players when you cannot participate in all of the events.
I am not saying go all out on a crusade, I'm sure you have better things to do with your time, I just find it appauling that casinos cannot provide facilities for customers who have a physical disability. At least in cincins you have the tables upstairs and down, where everyone can enjoy the facilities. I have said my piece. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: thetank on January 23, 2006, 07:27:06 AM all that he needs to do before listing a comp as a ranking event is phone up say "hi i am a wheelchair user and wish to play some poker will there be any problems" simple answer will come back i normally do this myself before going to a casino and havent been told a lie by anyone yet This might create a different problem. Venues keen not to lose their ranking status might cotton on to how their wheelchair access is tested and start telling porkies over the phone. If this happened, they might get away with it for a while if no wheelchair users choose to visit, but when one does, they're going to have turned up for nothing. It might not be that John Shoreman couldn't be bothered, rather he doesn't want to potentially give out false information. Irate wheelchair users who have travelled to an event in a foreign country but denied access might turn their ire towards him and rightly so, after all he would have vouched for it being a wheelchair friendly venue by allowing the status. I understand why he couldn't do this. There must be another solution though. Perhaps a letter could be sent by Mr. Shoreman to all casinos/card rooms in Europe that currently hold ranking events. It could inform them that if, after 2006, they are found to be lacking in the disabled access department then their ranking status could be revoked. If he sent everyone letters he might help institute change in a small way. He has the power to do encourage change and it would be a shame in he didn't use it. He said to you... Whilst I have every sympathy with your situation, I do not think the European Rankings should exclude casinos on the grounds that you give. If there is anything I can do to help wheel chair users get better access to casinos (without removing their ranking status, which I don’t think would motivate them enough to do anything anyway) I would be happy to discuss this with you. The letters themselves wouldn't be removing their ranking status, just saying that it is a possibility. Not sure if the letters would do much good, but it's better than doing nowt. Maybe suggesting this to Mr. Shoreman, perhaps even offering to draft the letter and pay for the postage. I don't see how he could refuse this. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: thetank on January 23, 2006, 07:28:55 AM If he takes non wheelchair access casinos out of the rankings system he's likely to just piss off a different group. (ie able bodied locals/regulars to those casinos) These able bodied regulars anger would be better directed at the casino in question for not providing wheelchair access. I can imagine an event that didn't provide ladies toilet facilities being denied ranking status creating a bit of a stir. I don't think the regulars would be upset at the ranking administration if this were the case. They would/should instead be annoyed that their card room don't provide facilities for girlies. Why should events that don't provide wheelchair access be any different? As Ironside says Poker should be a competition where able bodied and disabled people can compete on a level playing field. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: thetank on January 23, 2006, 07:43:22 AM I feel a blonde petition coming on.... I don't think any petition should be directed at Jon Shoreman. You want to work with him, not against him. Perhaps a copy of the petition could be drawn up and sent in the letters to the casinos. (mentioned above) Somethng along the lines of.... From 1st December 2007, The following poker players refuse to play in any event held in a venue that does not provide adequate facilities for wheelchair users. I'd sign that. Giving a date in the future might encourage some bigger names in the poker world to sign also. It gives offending venues a chance to mend their ways. Just remember to ask them nicely. Getting a few big names to sign would encorage others to aswell. They might even choose to make a big deal about it, "I'm going to win try to the European rankings in 2008 with the same chance as a disabled person. Why don't you do the same?" Get a couple to sign on and a lot of others might follow. Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: thetank on January 23, 2006, 11:20:25 AM Also "Tournaments which do not have dealers for all tables will not qualify as ranking events. (introduced 2006)" Anyone have any thoughts on how many uk events will be knocked out? None, if they get in dealers for the week. (Perhaps it's these casinos that mn should be contacting to promote his buisness instead of random spam) Title: Re: Rankings changes Post by: Newmanseye on January 23, 2006, 11:41:17 AM our Tank loves to post.!!! :D
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