blonde poker forum

This happened tonight in the £20 tourney at DTD

On a flop of 234:

Player 1 goes all in
Player 2 calls
Player 3 calls

Turn is a 5 - still betting on the side.

Player 2 check folds to Players 3's bet.

Player 3 turns over an Ax to show a straight.

At this point player 1 throws the cards at the muck. The cards touch the muck but are still identifiable, and turned over to show 97.

The dealer then deals a river 6.

What is the ruling in this situation.

If the cards were retrievable common sense would say the hand should stand?

Seems a bit weird that a guy wouldn't get to showdown when he was all in already....

This but I wish he got his hand killed tbh.

I'm sure you do....

Had this before at DTD, granted was a while ago but the ruling was if they touch the muck then the hand is dead (as it was his he mucked his cards but they didn't touch the much so he was allowed to have them back and claimed the pot :( )

R.

Surely hand should be dead? Being easily identifiable and retrieved from the muck should only be done from dealer error IMO.

Well the hand was ruled dead. The thing is that I said it should play but some loudmouth know-it-all said it should be mucked, and convinced the floor of this before I had I had a chance to put my side forward.

As I am not a regular there so I didn't push the issue but I was not a clear cut decision in my mind - especially when I check the rules afterwards and it says "9. Face Up- All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete."

I think it is poor "ruling" as it opens up some chip dumping angles as well, as well as possibly being unfair on the other players. Personally I would want someone who tries to fold a free draw to the virtual nuts having the chips.

BB

do you feel like I should have awarded you the pot? I open myself up pretty hard if so seen as no one else in the casino would have done the same for me. In fact I have done the same in a side pot and had another regular openly laugh in my face. At least i looked sheepish.

Touch muck = hand dead

Don't see why the hand needed to be turned over. Not like the player had his cards stolen by the dealer. Appreciatethere is still a card to come, but the cards belong to the muck now. They no longer have value.

PEOPLE OF POKER! KNOW WHEN YOU HAVE OUTS!!

If the dealer makes an error then it makes sense to take the cards out of the muck if they are known.

If a player does it and they would have won then its their fault. A couple of times players have mucked winning hands by mistake (Ivey and Laak come to mind). Laak during the 48hr cash game and Ivey mucking a flush in WSOP (I think). It is the players responsibility to pay attention and their fault if they muck a winning hand.

If wrong doing is suggested then that's a one thing but in this example I just think a player didn't know his outs and that's his fault and he should learn from it for the future

A similar situation is discussed here:

http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director4/another_mucked_hand_ruling

Having looked at that hendon mob dicsussion I'm satisfied that that I had a legitimate point here, and the know-it-all guy who spent most of the tourney moaning about the players in the £20 comp wasn't so right after all.

Anyway I've exceeded my quota of 0.001 posts per day - see you next year.

Something isn't right here.

If it is down to 2 players before the river was known all cards should be on their backs? It is then out of the hands of the player and their cards cannot be killed unless by a dealer?

There was betting on the flop or turn, then one guy folded and the all in threw his cards in the muck, before the river was dealt.

I think.

Dealer should be shot then. As soon as a player is all-in only the dealer should kill the cards in a tournament.

cards speak in showdowns right? If you're all in then your cards have to be turned up.

If for some reason they aren't then its bad from the dealer.

Something doesn't ring true.

If the pot was apparently (wrongly) uncontested then why would the dealer deal the river?

there are clearly some details missing

if Player 1 has mucked then the dealer has no need to deal the river....he should be pushing the pot to the winning player...

The river was dealt because the dealer was told to deal the river by the table. I guess the thinking was if it's not a 6 then everyone just carries on without further discussion.

It still doesn't sound right. A DTD dealer, in my experience, does not deal  the river because a group of players tells him or her to. A DTD dealer calls the floor if he or she is unsure....

Think the story needs to be re-told.

If its an all in showdown then the all in player technically can't muck his cards. They MUST be turned over. The only reason they wouldn't be if was something physically prevented that. Coming into contact with other cards doesn't count.

It doesn't matter whether this is pre flop, flop, turn, or river. They have to be shown.

That said DTD now follow that new rule set so god knows what it says about this. But whilst it still has that no electronic devices rule (even if DTD themselves don't follow it) it lacks credibility IMO.

I've seen this once or twice, not in this exact situation and never at DTD (once in a GPS, once in GUKPT and a few times locally) where players are all in at some point postflop, think they are dead so don't turn their hand over and either muck or make an action like they are mucking but maybe keep a hold of their hand.

Example of hand I was in at a GPS. I raise pre, 1 caller. I bet flop, he calls, I bet turn he jams I call and flip over my cards. I have top/top+nut flush draw. I clearly have him covered, he picks up his cards to muck but doesn't actually throw them in or flip them over. Dealer deals river anyway, player mucks and leaves. I'm pretty sure river shouldn't be dealt until his hand is flipped or he can muck, no river is dealt and I get the pot anyway. I've seen this situation a few times.

From the OP it sounds like, player bets turn, gets a fold and he turns over his straight. All in guy thinks he is dead with 97 high and just throws them in the muck. Dealer, possibly prompted by other players, turns the cards anyway. River gives the mucker bigger straight (and would be a chop if he was actually dead). Lower straight guy is now mad because he feels the all in guy had mucked and forfeited the pot and either his cards are dead or they just shouldn't have been flipped up anyway.

So what should the ruling be?
Hand cannot be mucked and is turned and live, deal river
Hand can be mucked and is now dead, shouldn't be turned, no need to deal river, award pot to last player in it
Hand can be mucked and is now dead but must be shown at showdown. Pot awarded to last person in the pot no matter what the river

Also at UKIPT at DTD in a hand I got it in on the turn with 2 pair V top set and tried to just muck but player in the pot said its all in and we both have to showdown so dealer flipped my cards (not clear if dealer would've done it anyway). River was dealt, if I had an out that I hadn't noticed, is my hand still live and can win the pot?

The year before also at UKIPT at DTD I've seen 2 players get it in on the flop, 1 player flip top set and the other player muck claiming to have top 2 pair. Dealer mucked his hand, no further cards were dealt, player eliminated. Nobody had asked to see the cards.

So which of those 2 instances were correct? Or is it a case of cards are only flipped if someone asks but then are they live or dead?

Hi Guys

Instances like this always generate debate / opininions

Usually a technical rule will apply but can be overruled by the TD in the interests of fairness and integrity.

I will get all the facts and then post whether I think this incident was ruled correctly.

Cheers

Aces

Simon,

I posted here to initiate debate, rather than a particular concern about the ruling. It was a £20 tournament, I wasn't in the hand, and the losing player did not contest the issue.

Would certainly be interested to get your thoughts and if you have specific questions please ask.

BB.

Hi All

I have looked into this

The OP facts seem to be right.

In an all in situation the dealer should request a showdown, if a player accidentally or intentionally mucks their hand the dealer should call the floor and if retrievable as in this case it should be turned over and the river dealt.

In this case the mucked hand should still have been live and awarded the pot with the player given a penalty.

The hand would not have been dead if it was not retrievable and as Dik 9 correctly states only a dealer can kill a hand.

Cheers

Aces

Well done on looking into it and replying. The TD-ing at DTD is the nuts.