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I'm in two minds about this, yes he broke the law but war is war. God knows why he allowed that cam footage to be seen by the wrong people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24870699

Even in war there are rules.

Nothing justifies this.

Whether the enemy would do the same to them is not relevant.

I don't think the wrong people saw it, I think the right people saw it.

I thought about this after hearing Michael Adebolajo justifying his actions by saying he is a soldier.  If he was a soldier that would make his actions even more wrong.

I wish somebody had shot him dead tbh, no apologies for saying that either.

just watched the Video, in two minds about it, on one hand the guy was an insurgent & would have killed the marines if he had a chance on the other side why kill someone that is already injured, while having had all the training warranted to become a royal marine.

These guys are marines and are giving their lives to fight for our oil freedoms still think this trial should have been privatus for the families sake.

Not sure about your comment here Tom? Who are you defining as the right people? You know that the whole thing will be used as propaganda against this country, even though these marines where tried and convicted by the UK courts..

In think the right people were those who could prosecute a soldier for shooting a prisoner in cold blood and wilfully breaking the Geneva convention.

It makes a mockery of the very values we are fighting for. If we condone such behaviour, we're no better than them.

The worrying thing is the way they are talking, this obviously happens a lot. Second nature to them.

If you do this type of shit then you can never take the moral high ground in conflicts, you cant complain when they gas you, torture, rape etc etc...you are as bad as them.

For prosecution yes, but this trial should have never been made public, ever, this is the type of thing terrorists use to radicalize individuals.  

War is war and there will be casualties, yes I agree that this should never have happened, but there has to be some damage limitation, why make public something that in the wrong hands can be used as a weapon..  

So my view is that we the public should never have been privy to this whole thing it should have remained Privatus..

I disagree.

If we make it public it shows that we don't condone or tolerate such behaviour.

Not only must Justice be done, it must also be seen to be done.

Comment from a service person I know, this is obviously not an uncommon occurrence (partly why I posted this in the first place)

'War is horrible on both sides and this poor guy broke the 11th commandment …thou shalt not get caught'

I guess we won't know who's opinion is correct for a while.. I really hope you're right here Tom but I'm afraid this will be used as a radicalization tool, remember the people who we are discussing, may not hold the same ideals as you, or me for that matter, so only time will tell...

It wouldn't matter what we did, or what action we took or didn't take, radicals would distort it the serve their ends.

"If you ban bear to hear the truth you've spoken, twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools...."

we all know this sot of thing goies on as a former squaddie i kinda feel it gors on alot more often than most people would think
but you dotn do it infront of a camera and if you do you make sure the footage is lost for ever
once footage is found then there is nothing else that can be done
if there is an attempt at cover up then it will come out

the marine should spend his time in a military jail thought and his name should not be in public domain

How? Why? and if this is true, why hasn't it come out until now? Is it because technology has become more advanced, so it's recorded and viewed by proxy? if yes to this and your statement above is true, why hasn't more come out? 

I think they were investigating another matter and found this on his laptop mate.

That's this particular case, but Ironside said if there is an attempt at cover up then it will come out based on it happens often, which it probably does, why hasn't any more come out, is this the only time this type of materiel was found? Pretty hard to believe...

It happens often and virtually 99% of the times soldiers do it out of sight of anything/anyone else. If rumors go around of some act being on tape/recorded then like others have said it has to come out else there is nothing worse than 5 years down the line someone whistle blowing and it making front page news of cover up slaughtering captives, which PR wise is ten fold worse for the forces.

not wishing to offend ,i do note a simalarity of this being found out by the exposure of a piece of film and the post in another part of blonde about the i belive is american ...knock out ...violence,where a perp films himself knocking out a stranger as they walk pass,and then is caught by the evedence of there own film that they had to show there mates .................................................its a sad reflection on man that its not enouth to do the deed but to keep a film record for the replaying of for laughter .....in both cases it would be most interisting to see the perps explain there actions to say some one such as nelson mandela,rip,.....i dont think the perps would be able to look him in the eye

I have not served no.

The way they speak in the film like this is second nature to them and to just keep it stum is shocking and telling into what really happens.

You are disrespected because I said it would be an often occurrence our troops murder captives? You think this is a one off then? Is it offensive to believe our troops commit acts against the Geneva convention in war?

They are taught to kill, no one should be suprised least not you.

There's a big difference between saying that it happens and that it happens often.

And soldiers are taught to follow orders is probably a more relevant part of their training than taught to kill I would have thought

I would imagine they are also taught when not to kill, and that the vast majority do respect the Geneva convention.

IMHO of course.

It's the Geneva convention - it's precisely about what happens in war. You can use 'but I was in a war - that's my excuse' as an excuse.

I am not sure I need to have served in the forces to know whats being reported. Never claimed I was some sort of authoritative figure on it, as an open forum I can say I bet this happens often. What you and I class as often (i agree I should have used a more suitable word, maybe something like "this would not have been the first time is has happened" ) could be questionable, one a week? once a month? across the globe where are troops are on conflict.

I bet its living hell for them there, I can understand people snapping, post traumatic stress etc makes people do unimaginable things. My take it is happens on both sides, most in this country would like to believe our troops are angelic and cases like this highlighted that fact that's not always the case. Sad really.

Pretty sure, Acid didn't mean to offend, just stating his opinion and the word "Often" is clearly subjective here..

What is your opinion on making this public...?

I've expressed my personal views about it, which you can see above Cliffs - Should never have been made public and will do more harm then good.

Assume you mean condemn rather than condone?

So you would say the times it does happen it's generally filmed/witnessed by others?

The point I was making and the reason that this is a unique case is THAT it was recorded not done out of sight etc.

You don't have to be authoritative or clever to make this point do you? Was not trying to be either thought it was an obvious observation.

I think acid is saying is, if there are any more incidents of this nature, then 99% of people involved would do it out of sight.

Yep, tbh thought it was obvious...guess not.

Tbh, he was so casual about it, it gave me with the feeling it's a common occurrence, dunno if that is right or not....

Well that's the scary thing, the language they used in the film was so casual and relaxed, almost like this was not a huge deal. It opens up a whole bunch of questions about what really goes on?

Is you is, or is you aint my baby?

Louis Jordan & His Tympani Five

Tom & Jerry version.


YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5LFD9VDq88

QFT

It happens often etc.  Not, it will happen from now on.

I admitted 'often' was wrong word to use :) It should be when it does happen...

I apologised to JJ :)

 Note to self: stick to playing Guild Wars 2 and other mindless bollocks next time lol.

Hasn't this been happening for years anyway, not just in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm surprised people are surprised.

Can someone explain though, how a British court can try him for a crime commuted abroad? I'm sure there is a good reason.

I'm not the least surprised at the act, but like others am surprised by the casualness. It seems to me that the use of a sidearm at close range might in itself make for some awkward questions, if anyone was inclined to ask them. Seems to me these guys were pretty confident none would be asked.

I am shocked that he was publicly named, whatever we think of his punishment it seems wrong to expose his family to possible retaliation.

sorry i was kinda blazing last night

the bit you highlight was meant too say
once the footage had been found by a civvy in a lab somewhere
it would of been shown too numerous people while they work out what they
aer seeing and hearing if they had tried too cover it up and keep it quiet it would of leaked
and alot of people would be in alot more crap

Sorta want to wade in here and make a quick point about reporting. It's rare, especially in a situations like these, that what is reported is going to be entirely factual. Journalists are looking to get the first information on a new story, and will often print the most immediate information as quickly as possible, and rarely take/have the time to take a longer look at the evidence and sort out the facts from the here-say. I wouldn't presume to be an expert on anything reported in any paper. It is very surprising how quickly one person's report can become fact in many peoples eyes. This is not to say that journalists are lying bastards, but that the pressure that they are under to deliver stories will often lead them to print first and corroborate later.

Errrm he has been convicted of murder, what exactly have they done wrong in the reporting?

@ flushy, my last comment was more in reply to this one than the guy being convicted of murder, although I'm sure some of the details in that story have changed since it first came out. I'm not attacking anyone here too, I'm kinda spending three years aiming at being a journaloust :p

Well if they have seen even just a couple of their mates killed you can understand why they would do this. I'm leaning gradually more to that side of the argument after reading more stuff about it.

What it would be a good reason for some insurgents to capture and kill a British soldier?

No idea, you should ask an insurgent lol

You have no opinion when the roles are reversed?

That is not what Celtic asked.

It was what I meant. Maybe I worded it wrong? Was battling err, stomach pains at the time ;)

I honestly don't know, I'm not an insurgent, I will guess they would most likely kill our soldier irrespective of whether this had happened of not. If you guys are insurgents and know better then tell me lol.

But you are not a soldier and have a view from their point of view..

What? I never said I was lol, I just said my opinion was being swayed from what I've read from soldiers and non soldiers, some here but mostly elsewhere.

majority of soliders i have spoken too both past and present and this includes my whole family and myself think that marine A broke the law and should be serving time behind bars

a large number of the people shouting about letting the guy off with murder have leanings too right wing parties like the EDL

or dont understand what happened and why its wrong

i would not say all in either case

Hadn't realised that lee, cheers for answering.

As a former soldier i am of the opinion that yes a crime was committed, and therefore a punishment is required.

However, as in many "civilian" cases there are some mitigating circumstances that should have been taken into account by the court, and the punishment adjusted accordingly.

Exactly what adjustments have or have not been done, is not my, or anyone else on this forum, or even the public in generals, call.

Perhaps a way to think about this is what would you, as an individual, do to protect yourself or someone very close to you, from a life threatening situation? How far would you go, what "laws" would you break, to protect life that is close to you?

How does the last paragraph relate to this case?

 I agree, in general with Tom's position which is that his actions were wrong and deserving of punishment. I can't imagine the way this guy felt at the time but the people who prosecuted and convicted him seem likely to be able to.
I do think the whole thing should have been dealt with in camera and the release of his name puts his family at risk and is a far crueller punishment than the jail term.

I'm left with an uncomfortable thought though

It seems it is ok for the US to summarily execute Bin Laden in cold blood but a guy who acted in the immediate heat of a battle finds his family put in the public spotlight as well as himself.

I wasnt attempting to relate it to the case in question, should probably have started a new thread tbh if this were to be discussed.

When i first heard about this case I presumed that this must have been a particular brutal case and he had been "grassed up" by other marines. I'm not sure whether I'm more or less shocked having heard he had the footage on his laptop. I really feel for the pressure these guys must have been under despite not truly being able to relate. However, knowingly breaking the Geneva convention means he has to be punished. The audio sounded so casual, it was pretty frightening.

agreed

It was clear cut cold blooded killing, much the same way as the British soldier was killed in the streets of Woolwich, anyone trying to defend either act with 'mitigating circumstances' is being far too kind.

wow someone break out the champagne first time in about 10 years me and flushy have agreed on summit

What a ridiculous statement..
Personally I don't condone what the Marine did at all, not whatsoever, but to compare it to the brutal murder of Lee Rigby is completely ludicrous..

Lee Rigby was run over and set upon by two men who claimed to be soldiers of Allah, they tried to behead him before warning the British public that they weren't safe. 
Lee Rigby hadn't attacked them at all, he was unarmed and the only reason his attackers identified him as a soldier was because he was wearing a camouflage back pack.. 

In the marines case, the insurgent attacked along with an accomplish had attacked the marines, the insurgent was was fatally injured by apache helicopter fire, that's when the marine found him injured and murdered him. 

They are both horrific cases in their own right, but not comparable..

He never said they were the same just cold blooded murders

ok, again possibly not going to improve this thread, for want of a better word, but what is the difference between a "mercy killing" and "cold blooded murder"?


from what i have read/heard/sumised, the victim was never going to survive, injuries way beyond the medical facilities that were available (probably a first field dressing or two and a morphine shot if he was lucky). So if the marine hadnt semi quoted shakespeare, and had said something along the lines of "this guy is never going to live, i'm putting him out of his misery" then shot him in the heart, would we still be having this debate? would there still have been a massive public interest?

@ ironside

Not sure what argument you're making here Mick? Elaborate? Maybe me just being 'Slow' (as always)

Mercy killing - When one assists in ending life to relieve intractable suffering.  i.e. Euthanasia

Murder - Is a premeditated act of killing one human by another.  i.e. Someone that has the intention to kill or seriously harm

Personally I'm not sure we would have been having this conversation if the Marine had used his professional judgement and deduced that the insurgent wasn't going to live, so the humane thing to do was to "put him out of his misery" but unfortunately he didn't.  

There is mitigation in this case, even though the marine seemed sound of mind and of good judgement, we can't deduce what was actually going threw his head at the time, even by the recording.  The marine spent 15 in service so his physiological state has to be questioned in mitigation, the same way the father of the girl who was raped, in US's mental state was questioned after he planned and murdered the teens responsible years after the incident

Aggravating factors that maybe relevant:
 
1) the victim was vulnerable because of age or disability
2) the abuse of a position of trust?
3) concealment, destruction or dismemberment of the body.

Mitigating factors:

1) lack of premeditation;
2) the offender suffers from a mental disorder or disability (not falling within section 2(1) of the Homicide Act 1957) which lowered his/her degree of culpability
3) the offender was provoked in a way not amounting to a defense of provocation
4) a belief by the offender that the murder was an act of mercy

My quarrel is not with the marines sentence at all, it's with naming the marine and this actually going public, but believe that there are mitigating factors to this case

When I read strong comments about how posters would/should act in a warzone I always imagine them sitting on the sofa with a cup of tea and a rich tea biscuit.

 ;danafish;

Rich tea biscuits? had you down as a Hobnobs man...

After Bloody Sunday I am surprised that anyone is surprised by the actions on the British Army.  Its far too easy to say that its just a few bad apples but there are countless episodes of military personnel being involved in the illicit and unlawful killings of both combatants and non-combatants. 

Obviously not all servicemen and woman are bad apples but its far more than is reported imho. 

Lolz, can't we stick with just one emotive thread for today plz.

Countless episodes? proof of this please?

well we have PHA board surely we can have a WZA thread

Lol @Mantis at not reading the posts... Read the posts then reply, instead of making assumptions...

As a current serviceman and just got back from Afghan. I think the fact he video'd or at least made it public shows a slight arrogance  and that he was proud of it?! Although I don't condone his actions his situation is horrible, he was in one of the worst parts of Afghan and it's ridiculous your under attack at random times through the day every day for 6 months- This means your adrenaline is pumped nearly the whole time after constantly fire fighting and  watching there friends and colleagues get killed with no outlet for there anger or a chance mourn. Theyre also hugely sleep deprived without the chance to rest,

So before writing a answer think about these points-

They might of been on there feet for the last 22 hrs with 60kg on there back fighting for the life had a couple of hours sleeping minutes for a shit breakfast and then back at it again.
 

Think how you feel when you lose someone you love let alone when there taken unfairly- if you've ever been unfortunate to lose someone to a drunk driver etc put that hate and anger and and all the other factors this guy had + its happened multiple times and hes facing the guy who possibly did it.



I am no way condoning it and he is trained to react necessarily in these situations but i do feel that all these "throw away the key" and hatred towards him is highly unfair!

What did I assume?

I posted the image I have in my head...which is a fact.

You were the one assuming...because you assumed I liked Hobnobs...which is actually true...but hey it might not have been.

Hobnobs are the King of biscuits, after Oreo's of course..

Utter shit has been posted itt!

Foxes vianese melts are the king of biscuits.

Choccie hob nobs are the Prince Harry of the biscuit world. Everyone loves em but you don't bring em out for a party!

Heavy artillery right there..

I have two words for you  - "Wagon Wheels" 

Bang bang has lost the plot.

He is the mint club of blonde.

I just like a lot of chocolate on my biscuit ....  ;sark;

milk chocolate hobnob /end thread

Why huge sigh? The MOD and Government done their best to cover this up, they even blamed the protestors. It took nearly 40 years for the truth to be admitted.

It's not like that was the only time British guns were turned on civilians.

Did you happen to see the documentary on the BBC a few weeks back about some covert stuff the forces were up to? Pretty harrowing but to many there was nothing new in it.

Also what about the Forces day at Ibrox recently when hundreds of serving personnel were involved in blatant acts of sectarianism, how can they then claim to be impartial?

I wouldn't say I was overtly Republican, I believe in Ireland's right (the whole island to self determination) in the same way I support Independence for Scotland. Similarly I support the rights of the people of Catalonia to decide their own futures.

Personally I would have more respect for the forces if they were more transparent and truthful about their actions. But regardless of wether it's war or not you can't go killing unarmed civilians or captured prisoners and from Afghanistan to the Falklands from Ireland to Iraq from Kenya to India there are many blood stained hands.

you do realise that a number of people on this forum are serving and form army personal and you have just accused us a large number of being complict in murder

Not the right forum/thread for this debate... Like Ironside said, there are many service men on this forum and your views valid or not maybe slightly disrespectful to those who are giving there lives protecting your freedoms..

Maybe a conversation for another thread..  

 ;iagree;

Tat? What part of it isn't a truth or have you been brainwashed by your time in the forces believing all actions are for the greater good.

As for Martin McGuiness I have absolutely no time for him or his pal from up in Belfast. This debate is not about them though it's about the British Army. I am more than happy to discuss the characters of Adams and McGuiness on another thread.

I am also glad to read that you are not sectarian, because neither am I. I abhor it, but sadly others in the forces don't.

I fully appreciate this is an emotive issue but you can't defend and deflect actions then bow out when you don't like the issues raised by those who take a different view.

@ Ironside, frankly I don't care that there may be members of this forum who serve or have served. It's a public forum and as long as my views are neither malicious or trolling I believe I am entitled to air them. I can't help the fact that you have issues with reading and believe I said those on here were complicit in murder. Perhaps that's guilt?

What you write doesn't sound like an objective, fact based assessment. It sounds like left-wing/socialist assumptions.

I'm assuming, for example that when you say that people have been 'brainwashed' it's because they've been told things you disagree with - but when you're told things you agree with, then that counts as 'The Truth'?

A fair number of people can quite easily recognise when someone is working on blind faith and that it's useless to argue with them; that is the most likely reason I wouldn't expect 'much' of an argument about this.

you will find that most of the former/serving members of the army on this thread are all for the jail sentence of marine A and any other member of the forces that commit murder
you on the other hand sound like a blinkered shite bag

A blinkered shite bag? Classy.

He has stated he has no time for mcguiness/Adams. But has rightly pointed out that the British army have been guilty of some atrocious acts of violence and killing. That's fact. Not blinkered thinking.

I watched the panorama programme too, it was given from the point of special forces. They admitted a lot of the stuff they done, wasn't quite legal.

special forces are not quite your average joe squaddie there are less than 200 men in the special forces at one time,
also panaroma is a program with an agenda the people involved in the making
of that program are not always who they say they are and also will exaggerate too make make tv
this is hardly indication of widespread murder by the british army.

And you know this how?

He gave a good example of Bloody Sunday, were normal soldiers done despicable things.

bloody sunday was one event where a handfull of men tarnished the 100's of thousands of men who served in Ireland without committing a crime
men who had too put up with risking life and limb every minute of every day at the hands or people who murdered for political gain

you know that the people interviewed by panaroma were ex special forces and were telling the truth how?
well i can tell you 100% there is no way panaroma or any other media outlet knows this for a fact as
the MOD will not ever confirm or deny who served in the SAS and the only way people are named ex SAS
are by there stories like the andy mcnab "i am god" "rest of my patrol were useless" exaggeration

Bloody Sunday wasn't the only event in Ireland that cause outrage. There are countless stories from there and other countries, readily available.

Anyway, I can't be arsed going back and forward with this, my point was this isn't the first time soldiers have been caught doing stuff they shouldn't have done. And I agree, there are plenty of good ones, that outweigh the bad.

What Ironside is trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that the media publish things to serve a purpose and political ideology is usually built upon it, hence the comment about Panorama. We all know and understand media serves to propagate certain things and embellish others.

JonMW put it better then I possibly could with his response to the emotive post by Kmac..

Agree with Celtic, Ironside needs to evidence his argument or bow out gracefully.. (And less of the open insults  :) )

 

Really?

Bloody Sunday aside what about Peter McBride, Aiden McAnespie, Julie Livingston, Daniel Rooney, Majella O'hare. The list goes on.

Now I know there have been atrocities by other groups but the Army are supposed to be above some actions.

John MW is probably right about my political leanings I would be left of centre, not so much socialist but value the rights of individuals regardless of where they are from. But my opinions on this situation is formed from having spent much time in Ireland in my formative years.

I think I have made my point and will bow out now.

And you know this how?  ;)

Geo

 :hello: geo x