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Poker Forums => Poker Hand Analysis => Topic started by: rfgqqabc on September 30, 2014, 01:38:38 PM



Title: Tough turn to play
Post by: rfgqqabc on September 30, 2014, 01:38:38 PM
PokerStars Hand #122219298240: Tournament #919442822, $5000+$200 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (1250/2500) - 2014/09/29 7:42:30 CET [2014/09/29 1:42:30 ET]
Table '919442822 92' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fr0zZy (79070 in chips)
Seat 2: UndrAAge (97443 in chips)
Seat 3: XD89lol<3 (32415 in chips)
Seat 4: Tulkaz (138099 in chips)
Seat 5: Harleyy30040 (74436 in chips)
Seat 6: Demonic16 (176890 in chips)
Seat 7: dimjik999 (150976 in chips)
Seat 8: vinnkels (138247 in chips)
Seat 9: toetagU (396375 in chips)
fr0zZy: posts the ante 325
UndrAAge: posts the ante 325
XD89lol<3: posts the ante 325
Tulkaz: posts the ante 325
Harleyy30040: posts the ante 325
Demonic16: posts the ante 325
dimjik999: posts the ante 325
vinnkels: posts the ante 325
toetagU: posts the ante 325
Harleyy30040: posts small blind 1250
Demonic16: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Demonic16 [Jh Tc]
dimjik999: folds
vinnkels: folds
toetagU: folds
fr0zZy: raises 2875 to 5375
UndrAAge: folds
XD89lol<3: folds
Tulkaz: folds
Harleyy30040: folds
Demonic16: calls 2875
*** FLOP *** [Th 5s Jd]
Demonic16: checks
fr0zZy: bets 5970
Demonic16: raises 8596 to 14566
fr0zZy: calls 8596
*** TURN *** [Th 5s Jd] [Qd]
Demonic16:

38k in and 58k ish back. Thoughts?

We've been pretty active but not done that much post on this table, more 3betty.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: rfgqqabc on September 30, 2014, 01:39:01 PM
Oops, could i get it moved to pha please.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: tikay on September 30, 2014, 01:40:41 PM
Oops, could i get it moved to pha please.

Done.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Oxford_HRV on September 30, 2014, 05:20:19 PM
i'd love a bigger raise otf around ~21k really wanna chaarge villain if he wants to peel another card.

Board: Th5sJdQd
          Equity        Win       Tie
MP2   48.69%   48.69%   0.00%   { JhTc }
MP3   51.31%   51.31%   0.00%   { QQ+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AKo, AJo, KJo+ }

trivial c/f on the turn i think, cant really bet turn vs this kinda range with spr.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: AlexMartin on October 01, 2014, 08:02:12 PM
id size for turn and river or just turn otf. turn and river on this texture, think now we really need to know opponent very well; horrible spot with this psr. V some i like bet turn c/c some rivers, others betbet. In this format i think checking turn is good now we got here like this.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 01, 2014, 08:49:23 PM
I'm in the c/f camp!


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 01, 2014, 09:09:21 PM
i'd love a bigger raise otf around ~21k really wanna chaarge villain if he wants to peel another card.

Board: Th5sJdQd
          Equity        Win       Tie
MP2   48.69%   48.69%   0.00%   { JhTc }
MP3   51.31%   51.31%   0.00%   { QQ+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AKo, AJo, KJo+ }

trivial c/f on the turn i think, cant really bet turn vs this kinda range with spr.


Don't really agree with the range you have assigned to villain, especially not the AK (and AQ) bit of it. Villain is not especially likely to have either of these hands by the turn. However, he can have all sets and you haven't included these. But if you add in sets and take out all the AK then hero's equity is going to be better than this. You can leave a couple combos of AK in if you want just to account for the small chance that he makes a float with that vs your flop raise. But having all 16 combos is far too many.

SPR is a little awkward on the turn obviously, and perhaps hero could have anticipated this on the flop by sizing his raise either a little smaller or a little bigger (and I'd prefer a little bigger on this particular flop - which is the opposite view to Alex). Given SPR and turn texture I think overbet-jamming the turn can be seriously considered now. Or even (depending on our read on villain's bet-when-checked-to tendencies) c/r jamming the turn, old school stack-a-donk-style. I don't actually think it is a completely terrible turn card for hero's hand vs villain's range (obviously worse than something like an offsuit 4, but still not really terrible). But it is now of a texture where many rivers (8s, 9s, Qs, Ks, Aces, perhaps 5s too depending on what villain has) could either lose hero the pot, or lose him his action. Villain might still call with a lot of hands that hero is beating, and if he does fold a hand like KQ, AJ or KJ... well at least we have prevented him realising his equity (although of course we'd prefer him to call).

I'm in the c/f camp!

Really? So surprised by this. I mean obviously this is not the perfect turn card for hero, but hero's hand should still have an equity advantage vs villain's range even on this turn. And even if hero's range was now a small underdog to villain's range, then that would not make it a c/f since SPR is pretty small now.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 01, 2014, 09:28:14 PM
yeh i often end up c/f in spots like this. i dont necessarily feel like betting is a good thing, and when we check i dont think we beat his betting range, in fact i think when he bets turn we're usually crushed (assuming he checks kq all the time)

c/shoving the turn would seem like an absolute disaster.

i think people check back tx most of the time on the flop, or at least sometimes, but they will bet/call ak and aq, but i guess they wouldnt bet the latter on the river.

i know results obviously but at the time i genuinely thought id c/f this hand.

overbet jamming the turn seems bad, what are you expected to get called by? id be v surprised if he called aq.

i guess sometimes i would go ahead and b/f the turn i feel like people peel kj/kq more than they jam ott


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Oxford_HRV on October 01, 2014, 09:33:31 PM
i'd love a bigger raise otf around ~21k really wanna chaarge villain if he wants to peel another card.

Board: Th5sJdQd
                           Equity        Win       Tie
MP2   48.69%   48.69%   0.00%   { JhTc }
MP3   51.31%   51.31%   0.00%   { QQ+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AKo, AJo, KJo+ }

trivial c/f on the turn i think, cant really bet turn vs this kinda range with spr.


Don't really agree with the range you have assigned to villain, especially not the AK (and AQ) bit of it. Villain is not especially likely to have either of these hands by the turn. However, he can have all sets and you haven't included these.

i was sure i had put in 99+ lol.  im still working out how to use equilab, this looks more sensible lol

Board: Th5sJdQd
   Equity   Win   Tie
MP2   49.79%   49.79%   0.00%   { JhTc }
MP3   50.21%   50.21%   0.00%   { 99+, AKs, AdQd, AhQh, AsQs, KdQd, KhQh, KsQs, AdJd, AhJh, AsJs, KdJd, KhJh, KsJs, QdJd, QhJh, QsJs, AJo, KJo, AdKs, AdKc, AhKs, AsKd, AsKh, AsKc, AcKd, AcKs }

just a 1% adjustment, no idea how JQdd is in villains range ect  :dontask:



Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Oxford_HRV on October 01, 2014, 09:42:36 PM
sigh i give up using equilab cant even put 55s in and have 99 in there ;shame;



Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 01, 2014, 10:08:41 PM
Hmmm... just seen it is a 5k tourney so need to reevaluate a little, based on the fact that villain is more likely to be decent.

You see, I just work on the assumption that most players in most tourneys are not great. So they'd bet KQ on the turn when checked to (and then be committed to calling it off). And/or they might well call an overbet jam with KQ or KJ too - because they'd have a pair and an open ender and just wouldn't want to fold. But obviously since this is a decent sized tourney then this might well be less likely since presumably players actually play well.

I still don't think over bet jamming is bad though, since the SPR is a little awkward to go bet-bet - especially with so many bad river cards for our hand to get called and still be good - and we at least gain something from simply preventing opponent realising his equity.

Do you really think most players are always bet-calling the flop with AK? I mean obviously you know how people play in these tournament things, but it seems bad to me. Maybe I am wrong. Of course if villain does have all combos of AK in his range on the turn then our hand does a lot worse than if he does not have (m)any combos of it.

It seems to me that, given the small SPR, you would have to be VERY VERY VERY secure in your population reads (that villain will bet/call AK on flop, that villain will check back KQ on the turn, that villain will not call a big bet with KQ, AQ or KJ, that villain will simply call a normal sized bet with KQ rather than jam all-in over a turn bet) in order to either c/f or b/f this turn. IMO this is just a hand vs range spot where we have way more than enough equity to commit vs his range. And given this, plus the SPR, an overbet jam is worth considering. Even if we have a bit less than 50% equity against his overall range, then a jam is still higher EV than check-folding. It's one of those counter-intuitive spots where you are 'value-betting' and yet still hoping villain folds, which is perfectly reasonable from a theory point of view. Of course, if you are very confident that villain is not going to semi-bluff or bet worse for value when checked to (i.e. he will allow us to get to showdown when we are winning) and will also rarely call with KQ, AQ, KJ, KK, AA or whatever (so we don't get anything other than protection by betting), then c/f makes sense. But, as I said, you have to be very, very secure in your reads.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 01, 2014, 10:17:35 PM
also feel like just passing up these spots and being left with a fantastic stack in a 5k tournament with an amazing structure is good too.

going down to 75k or whatever it would be could be the hand that changed the tournament for you, this hand wont win you the tournament.

im a nit in these kind of spots though.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 01, 2014, 10:39:17 PM
Okay I get the tournament considerations thing. But if you are dead set on c/f turn then surely just check-call flop, and play the hand as an absolutely top-of-the-range bluff catcher. Because if we are check-folding the turn then our flop check-raise is mainly just a protection bet, and not a true value bet. Obviously I understand that a value hand on the flop can become a bluff catcher, or even a check-folder, if a particularly bad card comes on the turn. But if you are considering the Q to be a card that turns a value hand (that can c/r the flop) into a c/f on the turn then presumably you are also seeing any K, A or 9 in the same light. That's 16 cards that make our hand unable to keep betting, and probably c/f. And perhaps the three remaining 5s too, since we now lose to overpairs. So that would be 19 cards. Which is a lot, especially when out of position (which prevents us from checking back a 'bad turn'). And if there really are so many turn/river cards that can come to make us want to c/f then perhaps we do not really have a value check-raise on the flop.

Which seems silly, and I don't agree with it.

If c/r flop is good and c/f turn is also good then you must view the Q turn as one of a very small number of nightmare turn cards that can come to completely change our hand's value vs villain's range. That's the only way that both c/r flop AND c/f turn can be correct.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Oxford_HRV on October 02, 2014, 12:19:24 AM
If c/r flop is good and c/f turn is also good then you must view the Q turn as one of a very small number of nightmare turn cards that can come to completely change our hand's value vs villain's range. That's the only way that both c/r flop AND c/f turn can be correct.

I think Q>A>K>9>5 for views of nightmare turn cards. Really expect people b/c AK otf nearly always off 30bigs, vs small c/r.

I don't think that c/r flop small is good though.

I agree what pleno1 says about betting turn won't really be that good and villains betting range ott will be beating us.

I mainly decided c/f was best due to consideration our stack size and thought it was deffo too risky/thin to b/f or b/c for this many chips so c/f on the Q turn was best

I would like to try and use equilab to see how close equity is but it tilts the life out of me trying to click the right boxes, adding the right suits, ect seems like 50/50 though.

Much rather have my 60bb stack with structure than taking a shot at winning this pot ott


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 02, 2014, 01:17:54 AM
I think Q>A>K>9>5 for views of nightmare turn cards.

Surely the worst turn card is an Ace, followed by a 9. Because villain almost definitely plays all 16 combos of KQ this way on the flop. That's a LOT of combos, and a large % of his overall range, given that this range is going to be quite narrow. An Ace is worse than a 9 obviously since he also likely has all AJ and AA combos too. This is, of course, assuming that villain is always opening KQo and AJo from this position, which is not certain but I'd guess is likely. Villain is certainly much more likely to open AJo from this position than he is QJo or QJs! So I just don't see that the Q is a worse card than an Ace or a 9. Of course, if you are 100% certain that villain will play all 16 combos of AK like this then fair enough the Q is going to mean you have been outdrawn quite a bit. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But he is definitely playing his KQ this way, right? And we cannot be as sure about the AK.

That's the whole point really. A Q is not the worst turn card that can come, it is not even the second worst card. So if we don't feel hero can continue on the Q turn, then that means there are a LOT of turns hero cannot continue on. Which means hero's flop check-raise is not really a true value-raise, and might even be bad.

Which is NOT what i think of course. I personally think that hero's flop c/r is fine. But then I am not advocating c/f this turn!



Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Oxford_HRV on October 02, 2014, 11:40:41 AM
I think Q>A>K>9>5 for views of nightmare turn cards.

Surely the worst turn card is an Ace, followed by a 9. Because villain almost definitely plays all 16 combos of KQ this way on the flop. That's a LOT of combos, and a large % of his overall range, given that this range is going to be quite narrow. An Ace is worse than a 9 obviously since he also likely has all AJ and AA combos too. This is, of course, assuming that villain is always opening KQo and AJo from this position, which is not certain but I'd guess is likely. Villain is certainly much more likely to open AJo from this position than he is QJo or QJs! So I just don't see that the Q is a worse card than an Ace or a 9. Of course, if you are 100% certain that villain will play all 16 combos of AK like this then fair enough the Q is going to mean you have been outdrawn quite a bit. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But he is definitely playing his KQ this way, right? And we cannot be as sure about the AK.

That's the whole point really. A Q is not the worst turn card that can come, it is not even the second worst card. So if we don't feel hero can continue on the Q turn, then that means there are a LOT of turns hero cannot continue on. Which means hero's flop check-raise is not really a true value-raise, and might even be bad.

Which is NOT what i think of course. I personally think that hero's flop c/r is fine. But then I am not advocating c/f this turn!



I agree Villain plays all his AA and AJ this way, wouldn't be certain he plays KQ this way all the time. He can check back flop sometimes because he wouldn't want to 3 barrell KQ on JT5r vs a calling range. He deffo plays AK this way all the time and his JQ which I think he should deffo be opening MP.

I like the thought, the flop raise is not effectively a value raise. I think as you say on the turn we can be over bet jamming here counter intuitively where we are still value betting but we are hoping villain to fold. that's the kind of understanding I had to sizing the flop much bigger.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: cambridgealex on October 02, 2014, 12:45:33 PM
Am in total agreement with the notion that KQ is FAR more likely to be played this way than AK. AK should just fold on flop or check back, with so many dirty outs and just 4 clean ones which could be blocked anyway. AK is just gonna call down eh? Hope hero gives up and Ace high holds? Turn an A/K then be happy calling down? Not in my opinion.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: cambridgealex on October 02, 2014, 12:46:47 PM
I love the idea that if c/f turn is best here then c/r flop is bad initially. Pretty cool thought and hard to argue with the theory Stu presents to back it up. Good thread. 


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 02, 2014, 12:57:28 PM
I wouldn't c/r this board with anythingn really.

55 and jt makes sense for value, Tt/jj too I guess. But what are we c/r as a bluff? I feel like this board hits our opponents too hard to c/r hands like k9 and 87 here as the hands we want to fold out probably check back flop a lot.

@alex I feel like mtt guys Cbet way too
Much in general. People like cal/brianm etc Cbet like 92% and others really Cbet way too much as well IMO, I imagine they would Cbet here and then when raised would be reluctant to fol, even if it is good to
Fold. Again I may be biased as I know results.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 02, 2014, 01:33:10 PM
wouldn't be certain he plays KQ this way all the time. He can check back flop sometimes because he wouldn't want to 3 barrell KQ on JT5r vs a calling range. He deffo plays AK this way all the time and his JQ which I think he should deffo be opening MP.

Don't agree with the majority of this. It is inconsistent apart from anything. KQ is a much better cbet than AK. So if he "deffo plays AK this way all the time" then surely he is going to have all combos of KQ here too. I personally don't think he will (or at least should) have AK here too often, and I think it is a bit much to say he definitely plays AK this way all the time. Second, villain may or may not have the 2 remaining combos of QJs in his preflop range, but I would be very surprised if he was opening QJo from MP. Unless there are specific reasons to do so (e.g. dominating the table as the big stack on the bubble) then QJo would be a very bad open from MP.

I wouldn't c/r this board with anythingn really.

55 and jt makes sense for value, Tt/jj too I guess. But what are we c/r as a bluff? I feel like this board hits our opponents too hard to c/r hands like k9 and 87 here as the hands we want to fold out probably check back flop a lot.

I don't see why you are worried about which hands to use as bluffing combos. We have a ton of potential hands to bluff with to balance our sets and two pairs. AQ would be one such hand, if we so choose - with the nut gutshot and two overs. And saying "I don't want to bluff-raise because villain will hardly ever fold. Therefore I cannot value-raise because I am not bluffing here and that would make me unbalanced" is really woolly thinking and is mixing up exploitative play and GTO play in the same thought-bite. If you really do believe that villain is very rarely bet/folding here then that means you should be even more inclined than usual to raise your strong value hands. Just don't bother bluffing much, or even at all! Easy game lol. And btw if you genuinely believe that villain is always bet/calling all his AK on this flop then you should definitely want to raise your strong value hands!

It seems that there are some illogical/contradictory thoughts processes going on here...


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: rfgqqabc on October 02, 2014, 01:58:53 PM
I can't get too in depth right now and I've not really had time to absorb everything thats been said properly. I check raised small to take the initiative and because I thought my opponent would cbet AK often and call a raise to this size. I agree people cbet too much.

This is the next part of the hand.


PokerStars Hand #122219298240: Tournament #919442822, $5000+$200 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (1250/2500) - 2014/09/29 7:42:30 CET [2014/09/29 1:42:30 ET]
Table '919442822 92' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: fr0zZy (79070 in chips)
Seat 2: UndrAAge (97443 in chips)
Seat 3: XD89lol<3 (32415 in chips)
Seat 4: Tulkaz (138099 in chips)
Seat 5: Harleyy30040 (74436 in chips)
Seat 6: Demonic16 (176890 in chips)
Seat 7: dimjik999 (150976 in chips)
Seat 8: vinnkels (138247 in chips)
Seat 9: toetagU (396375 in chips)
fr0zZy: posts the ante 325
UndrAAge: posts the ante 325
XD89lol<3: posts the ante 325
Tulkaz: posts the ante 325
Harleyy30040: posts the ante 325
Demonic16: posts the ante 325
dimjik999: posts the ante 325
vinnkels: posts the ante 325
toetagU: posts the ante 325
Harleyy30040: posts small blind 1250
Demonic16: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Demonic16 [Jh Tc]
dimjik999: folds
vinnkels: folds
toetagU: folds
fr0zZy: raises 2875 to 5375
UndrAAge: folds
XD89lol<3: folds
Tulkaz: folds
Harleyy30040: folds
Demonic16: calls 2875
*** FLOP *** [Th 5s Jd]
Demonic16: checks
fr0zZy: bets 5970
Demonic16: raises 8596 to 14566
fr0zZy: calls 8596
*** TURN *** [Th 5s Jd] [Qd]
Demonic16: checks
fr0zZy: bets 16540

~40k in and ~59k eff


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: WotRTheChances on October 02, 2014, 02:27:20 PM
i'd probably bet turn in this hand. In the comps i play think it's the nut line, or c/call and c/call a lot of rivers. In a 5k vs someone decent/good c/f might be better than betting or c/calling.
Imo villain pretty rarely has AK bet-calling JTx otf, but i guess maybe people don't like to fold. Feels to me like betting turn we will rarely get raised/jammed on as a bluff, but can certainly get called by worse (KT, KJ, KQ,T9,J9,Q9,AQ,KK,AA potentially). I guess vs someone good you'll find people checking back almost all of those hands if you check turn, so c/f has got to be an option. Not one i usually take vs the frogs :P


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 02, 2014, 02:28:57 PM
I'm c/r jamming now that you've checked and he's bet. SPR makes this a pretty comfortable play, and board texture almost demands it. Check-calling keeps in his bluffs ofc, but you're out of position on what is now a very wet board. And all his bluffs have pretty good equity. Villain definitely gains EV from there still being money to bet on the river, given the board texture and the fact he is in position.

It has gone past the point now where you worry about things like 'he's only calling with better'. Pot is so bloated in relation to stacks now that we gain so much from simply preventing villain's equity realisation. But also he will call with hands that you beat. He'll feel priced in with stuff that he bet that he perhaps shouldn't have bet.

Pleno's idea that everyone is playing well and will know to check back KQ/KJ type hands here does not fit in with his belief that AK gets bet/called all the time on the flop. Unless he has the most specific of specific reads on the population, which I don't think is possible really.

Obviously I am pretty sure that you are beaten here based on Pleno's comments that he knows what happened. So I imagine villain has AK. But that's just after-timing IMO.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 02, 2014, 03:04:57 PM
Lol it's not. He didn't have ak by I'm strongly strongly convinced that the majority of regs b/c ak otf. Hands that I think bet/f the flop are random hands like a9o, a4s, 87s.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: AlexMartin on October 02, 2014, 06:01:04 PM
I'm c/r jamming now that you've checked and he's bet. SPR makes this a pretty comfortable play, and board texture almost demands it. Check-calling keeps in his bluffs ofc, but you're out of position on what is now a very wet board. And all his bluffs have pretty good equity. Villain definitely gains EV from there still being money to bet on the river, given the board texture and the fact he is in position.

It has gone past the point now where you worry about things like 'he's only calling with better'. Pot is so bloated in relation to stacks now that we gain so much from simply preventing villain's equity realisation. But also he will call with hands that you beat. He'll feel priced in with stuff that he bet that he perhaps shouldn't have bet.

Pleno's idea that everyone is playing well and will know to check back KQ/KJ type hands here does not fit in with his belief that AK gets bet/called all the time on the flop. Unless he has the most specific of specific reads on the population, which I don't think is possible really.

Obviously I am pretty sure that you are beaten here based on Pleno's comments that he knows what happened. So I imagine villain has AK. But that's just after-timing IMO.

really? dont think he is betcalling worse


Also i think c/fing turn is looking better and better v most of the field. Good thread.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 02, 2014, 06:55:22 PM
Hmmmm. Are you sure villain does not bet/call KQ, or KK or KJ or whatever here? People play poorly from time to time. I mean apparently most players are bet/calling the flop with AK 100% of the time. This seems bad to me. So perhaps they make mistakes on the turn too; betting hands they shouldn't bet. And tbh even if villain bet/folds a hand like KQ on the turn it is fine - pot is bloated and we gain plenty from forcing him to surrender his equity share after he has already put plenty of his stack in the pot.

To me it's just an SPR thing. If eff stacks were deeper then we may do something else. But as it is I just prefer committing.

I guess it's you guys who play these tournament things so you have the final say on how the player pool plays. But it seems to me that there are a lot of very, very specific reads used here to justify something that would likely be very bad indeed if these reads are not 100% accurate.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 03, 2014, 12:12:54 AM
the bigger the pot and the smaller the spr the less mistakes players make in general.

when we see results of this hand we gonna look stupid anyway


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: action man on October 03, 2014, 03:13:24 AM
villain is horrid spew monkey station tard fwiw. 


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 03, 2014, 10:40:38 AM
the bigger the pot and the smaller the spr the less mistakes players make in general.

This is true to some extent. But on the other hand, folding the best hand (or a hand with more than enough equity vs an opponent's range to commit) in a bloated pot with a small SPR is a very serious mistake.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: MC on October 03, 2014, 05:49:54 PM
villain is horrid spew monkey station tard fwiw. 

lol


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 07, 2014, 10:03:24 PM
We never found out what happened in this hand...


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: pleno1 on October 07, 2014, 11:45:12 PM
the guy had T8 with a fd and called the c/j


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: Honeybadger on October 08, 2014, 01:37:57 AM
Solid.


Title: Re: Tough turn to play
Post by: rfgqqabc on October 08, 2014, 02:19:13 AM
Sorry I had my gf here and didn't have time for a long post. I checkraised the flop to this size to keep my range "fos" in his mind. I expected him to b/c much wider than he should and this is part of the reason I thought this was one of the worst turns. My plan on most turns would have been to bet another pretty bluffy size and hope he had the equity to jam. Due to the lack of sets we have on the flop, in his mind anyway, I think this is the best line to take. I thought the turn was very interesting. I would expect KQ to possibly check now, but a decent chunk of stuff to just b/gii. We don't even have many straights on the turn so I don't think c/f is a great option, we are close to the top of our range, as we dont have qj often either, and people really loved to battle in this, most people were one tabling and there were a lot of crazy pots.

People do shit like this

PokerStars Hand #122778545264: Tournament #978289813, $1000+$50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (200/400) - 2014/10/08 2:33:22 CET [2014/10/07 20:33:22 ET]
Table '978289813 21' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: bluet0m89 (14700 in chips)
Seat 2: danger0us (8068 in chips)
Seat 3: BigPig400 (13582 in chips)
Seat 4: dhutt (15042 in chips)
Seat 5: FastCarsss (28880 in chips)
Seat 6: DemonBilly (4370 in chips)
Seat 7: hopezACE (6225 in chips)
Seat 8: probirs (25060 in chips)
Seat 9: a Bull 67 (18130 in chips)
bluet0m89: posts the ante 50
danger0us: posts the ante 50
BigPig400: posts the ante 50
dhutt: posts the ante 50
FastCarsss: posts the ante 50
DemonBilly: posts the ante 50
hopezACE: posts the ante 50
probirs: posts the ante 50
a Bull 67: posts the ante 50
a Bull 67: posts small blind 200
bluet0m89: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
danger0us: folds
BigPig400: folds
dhutt: folds
FastCarsss: folds
DemonBilly: folds
hopezACE: folds
probirs: folds
a Bull 67: calls 200
bluet0m89: raises 800 to 1200
a Bull 67: calls 800
*** FLOP *** [Ac 2h 5h]
a Bull 67: checks
bluet0m89: bets 1300
a Bull 67: raises 1500 to 2800
bluet0m89: calls 1500
*** TURN *** [Ac 2h 5h] [6h]
a Bull 67: bets 5600
bluet0m89: calls 5600
*** RIVER *** [Ac 2h 5h 6h] [4d]
a Bull 67: bets 8480 and is all-in
bluet0m89: calls 5050 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (3430) returned to a Bull 67
*** SHOW DOWN ***
a Bull 67: shows [2c 2s] (three of a kind, Deuces)
bluet0m89: shows [Tc 6s] (a pair of Sixes)
a Bull 67 collected 29750 from pot
bluet0m89 finished the tournament in 193rd place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 29750 | Rake 0
Board [Ac 2h 5h 6h 4d]
Seat 1: bluet0m89 (big blind) showed [Tc 6s] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 2: danger0us folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: BigPig400 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: dhutt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: FastCarsss folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: DemonBilly folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: hopezACE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: probirs (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: a Bull 67 (small blind) showed [2c 2s] and won (29750) with three of a kind, Deuces


PokerStars Hand #122778602792: Tournament #978289813, $1000+$50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (200/400) - 2014/10/08 2:34:49 CET [2014/10/07 20:34:49 ET]
Table '978289813 24' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: RuiNF (11504 in chips)
Seat 2: tzeskobar (8405 in chips)
Seat 3: IKnewwwIt (16735 in chips)
Seat 4: Pressor (45959 in chips)
Seat 5: tkyk916 (10466 in chips)
Seat 6: SeregaZ88 (7333 in chips)
Seat 7: apostolis20 (28718 in chips)
Seat 8: tnxcomeagain (7764 in chips)
Seat 9: Demonic16 (4910 in chips)
RuiNF: posts the ante 50
tzeskobar: posts the ante 50
IKnewwwIt: posts the ante 50
Pressor: posts the ante 50
tkyk916: posts the ante 50
SeregaZ88: posts the ante 50
apostolis20: posts the ante 50
tnxcomeagain: posts the ante 50
Demonic16: posts the ante 50
Pressor: posts small blind 200
tkyk916: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Demonic16 [4d 3c]
SeregaZ88: folds
apostolis20: folds
tnxcomeagain: raises 400 to 800
Demonic16: folds
RuiNF said, "you knewwwit"
RuiNF: folds
tzeskobar: calls 800
IKnewwwIt: folds
IKnewwwIt said, "ya ul bub"
RuiNF said, "(y)"
Pressor: calls 600
tkyk916: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [2d 4h As]
Pressor: checks
tkyk916: checks
tnxcomeagain: bets 1533
tzeskobar: calls 1533
Pressor: folds
tkyk916: folds
*** TURN *** [2d 4h As] [3s]
tnxcomeagain: bets 2820
tzeskobar: raises 3202 to 6022 and is all-in
tnxcomeagain: calls 2561 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (641) returned to tzeskobar
*** RIVER *** [2d 4h As 3s] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tnxcomeagain: shows [6s 5c] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
tzeskobar: shows [Ac Qc] (a pair of Aces)
tnxcomeagain collected 17478 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 17478 | Rake 0
Board [2d 4h As 3s 9h]
Seat 1: RuiNF folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: tzeskobar showed [Ac Qc] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: IKnewwwIt (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pressor (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: tkyk916 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: SeregaZ88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: apostolis20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tnxcomeagain showed [6s 5c] and won (17478) with a straight, Deuce to Six
Seat 9: Demonic16 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

even this. What is a reg doing opening there?

I know a lot of thought went into peoples posts here so thanks a lot guys.