blonde poker forum

Just comparing and contrasting the two events:

Buyin + juice:

GUKPT: £1000 + 80. Nothing taken from pool. (Total 8%)
UKIPT: £700 + 70 and 3% taken out of pool for dealers tip. (Total 13%)

Guarantee:

GUKPT: £250k Decent chance of overlaying.
UKIPT: £500k Million to one to overlay.

Buying in:

GUKPT: Turn up at Luton G Casino, pass money to cashier, be given a seat assignment.
UKIPT: (Stolen from Jaffa's Facebook) "Such a joy to play a PokerStars event. Walk to casino, queue to pay in (as they can make u wear stars badge of u buy in online). Take that ticket to tournament a mile away, go upstairs, queue to get another piece of paper. Take that piece of paper downstairs to get seat card. Take seat card to table, get shouted at for daring to put phone on rail before a card is dealt. Hope they're raking the prize pool as well as 10% juice, all these pieces of paper add up"


Sponsorship:

GUKPT: Wear what you want (except shorts obv)
UKIPT:  If you buy in using your online account, they reserve the right to make you wear a pokerstars patch.



All this is food for thought I think.

Pokerstars is the leading brand of poker worldwide so they can get away with charging what they like. ...

In the end they, themselves will destroy poker.

Great points. Obv the flip side is

Central London>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Luton>>War Stricken Countries

One point in the UKIPTs favour, is the dealers/floor staff are excellent. Absolutely the best around.

But shouldn't they be rewarded from the juice? I mean they are a cost to the operator for running an event and should be accounted for by them.

If players choose to give them an extra reward that should be their prerogative, not an imposed cost IMO.

I collected £4,400 for 23rd. It would have been £4,532 without the tip. I probably would have left the odd £32, maybe £50.

The buying in process shouldnt have been so bad if you were prepared in advance.  If you have a Hippodrome card and a PS Live card, you could show up to the venue and buy in through PS account funds or debit card and then get an immediate seat.

I also like when its not in a casino as I can show up in shorts if I want to.  Doesnt Luton require you to wear shoes?

I don't mind too much as like you said the staff/dealers tables and chips are imo the best around.

What I really can't stand is how they put the prizepool so top heavy.

I'm sure anyone would be very happy with 100k for a 800£ buy in so why not distribute the other 33k around.

I had a look at the payouts and it honestly depressed me with how bad it was for getting like 15th for example in a 1100 runner field. It's a joke imo...

The prizepool is top meavy not because the winner gets too much it's because they pay far too many spots.

IIRC they paid 159 from 1080, which is virtually 15%.

The winner gets the right amount, but paying 50 people an average of double their money means the guy finishing 10/1089 only got about 10x buyin which is a joke.

They obv do it because most everyone who cashes for a grand will try to spin it up on their stars acct - thus paying even more rake. While the final tablists are likely squirrel their cash away and stars get no more rake!

This is true of course.

But in my experience very few poker players are organised enough and some like Jaffa cannot possibly agree to wearing a Stars patch.

Yeah true hence my early statement of their selves ruining poker as a whole long term.

LOL true true

But I was going to spin my prize money up for the EPT, but decided instead to use it for the GUKPT main event at the Vic

£2000 + 125.

EPTs £2k event rakes £200 (+3% obv)

Kev in the poker room might even comp me dinner one night :)

You have been able to wear trainers now at Luton for over two years. And hoodies. Shorts should be banned.

Especially for those with short hairy legs.

Plus Pokerstars is making tens of thousands in rake from online sattys which are effectively cost free for them to run.

Although Grosvenor do run sats, most qualifiers will be from live events which are more expensive to run and they probably have a much higher % of cash buy ins.


EDIT: Just checked and 1/4 of players won their seats online for the UKIPT. That's a lot of extra rake into Amaya's coffers.

are numbers up or down for this festival on previous years?  13% rake on a £700 live multi day mtt with london expenses lolzz!  Must be getting close to being only two winners in live mtts (the rakebox and the hotel companies)

and deadman, so 3

Maybe it's a case of GUKPT going too low than Stars too high?

Can't even imagine how much it costs to hire out the connaught rooms for 2 weeks.

GUKPT can offset the rake by how much extra they would expect to take in the pit.

When is gukpt etc?

Plus all the expenses of flying the dealers around Europe and accommodation. The lorries for all the tables and TV set.

Grosvenor doesn't have any of that and even when the GUKPT is on normal casino operations still go ahead. On Saturday night Luton will still be entertained by DJ Seamus for the locals.

Can never imagine Stars having a DJ on while play is taking place.

fwiw I think the GUKPT is a great tour but they are very different events and to compare them by rake alone doesn't pain the whole picture.

This week......


http://www.gukpt.com/events/2014-events/leg-9-luton/

Starts tonight, and runs up til Sunday.

GUKPT you get free food too, 3 days instead of 4, which is definitely my preference, and must save a bit on the bills.  Can't say I have ever been that bothered by the dealers at either.  GUKPT must be better on the variance too, despite paying a lower percentage?  Suspect GUKPT is a bit softer too, which is a bonus.  For the first year in an age, I haven't played either.

Just avoid the UKIP in my view, dealers there can look respectable, but if forced to listen to what they say, it can be pretty unpleasant.

13% juice before expenses.

How many players have honestly got an edge big enough to cover this?

Possibly 20?

The rest of us are stupid or deluded.

Or both.

Some people enjoy playing the events and put a price on that (consciously or otherwise).

Granted, my "price" would be less than 13%...

Bloody hell, the boys on my first table on Thursday didn't seem to be enjoying it much.

Doubt more than 10 words were uttered in conversation in 6 hours.

I tried to make a couple of jokes and they looked at me like I was completely ga ga.

Granted my day 2 table was really good fun and we had a couple of genuine laughs. Included that very rare bird a young American internet pro who is congenial company. Nickolas Davies who ended coming 5th. Was rooting for him. Nice bloke.

There lies the other problem!

The rake should be apportioned according to how much fun you are at the table.

- Silent, hoody, headphones, occasional tweets about how the table is full of loldonkrecs = 20% rake (if you think you're so good, let's see you show it)
- Focused but happy to engage in conversation at reasonable junctures = 10% rake
- Chatty and excitable. Clearly there to enjoy themselves and the experience = 5% rake (we want you back next year)

Refunds available at the cash desk on the way out.

Agree with some of the points and often avoid Stars festivals tournies and live poker in general because of the hassles of buying in, PS Live, side events selling out, cash games full. Much prefer a smaller festival where I know I can get a seat in a cash game or a side event if I bust.

However, factors you didn't consider. GUKPT re-entry (up to 4 bullets), UKIPT is a straight freezeout. If you are comfortably rolled for multiple bullets then this gives you a big advantage in GUKPT. If you bust strong player on day one, he goes to the cash desk buys in again and gets an extra life

Field size. UKIPT is much bigger, more up top, when you get the final it is likely to be a weaker/softer field imo.

Those drink holder/phone chargers on the table and the blue neon stripe around the edge didn't pay for themselves you know!

Disagree about field strength.

Average Pokerstars player is going to be a lot stronger than average Luton regular (Edna Adams excepted obv)

You might get really lucky at Luton and draw Tom Myland, Dick Lynch, Chompy and Nirvana #pokerplayersheaven

It's closer to 14% than 13% (£679+£91 effectively) then they will 1000% ask relatively aggressively when you min cash or more 'do you want to leave anything for the dealers?' even though u have left 3.6% of your original entry fee for the dealers already (assuming 15% of players cash that equates to an effective tip of £140 from every person who cashes - more than 20% of the entry fee) - as have the 85% of people who didn't cash as well.  This is the thing that really annoys me about playing stars comps.  How much more will they continue to squeeze the juice given a gukpt main event in season one was £1000+£50.   The game is 50 times tougher now than it was then yet the cost of playing it is going through the roof.  I suppose as long as they continue to fill the seats they will keep cranking up the juice.  It's up to the players to vote with their feet however the vast majority seem more than willing to keep getting squeezed so you can't fault stars.

I'd say that to generalise they would play differently. GUKPT players more solid, more live experience. UKIPT better fundamentals, possibly more experience of MTTs over all, but often too aggressive and lacking in live experience. Also the UKIPT directly before the EPT will have players coming for the full festival. However there all kinds of sats for UKIPT for small money so all kind of people get in these Pokerstars 1k tourneys (for example I'd wager the Estrellas before EPT Barcelona is one of the softest of the year in Europe) - having lots of sats is a plus for UKIPT and a negative for GUKPT.

Agree with most of your points esp. on rake, but I think you are drastically underestimating how much being a re-entry makes the field tougher, particularly when you get to the money, a much higher proportion of good players will remain in the tournaments.

To be fair they never asked me. Perhaps the girl at the computer was a mind reader and knew what my answer would be.

The days of Thomas Kremsner were really bad, he really badgered you to tip. And no guesses what happened to the money then.

Thank God Stars got rid of that slimeball.

However 48 hours after cashing, there's no sign of my winnings in my Stars account yet.

From a Grosvenor it would all be punted away by now easily.

I definitely hear what you're saying about re entries.

I hate them obviously. Definitely would make a rec think twice about pulling up in the first place if he knew Sam Grafton, Toby Lewis and the boys were all happy to have 4 entries.

But the fact the overall field strength is higher in UKIPTs means that final tables are probably of similar texture.

2 or 3 pros, 3 or 4 solid regs and 1 or 2 recreational players.

Look at any ft from either tour and those estimations won't be far wrong.

Yeah while a lot of the guys at the table are miserable, off the table its a different story. Both recs and regs go to EPTs for fun, that's why Barcelona is huge and London is tiny.  They go for the chance to play Lodden on a TV table.  Stars do a lot in events outside of the poker but obviously some players have no interest in that so don't get to see any of that value. That's part of the reason why big online beasts punt it off live cos they are hungover or wanna go do stuff too.

The cover the costs of the filming of the TV shows and stream which are huge but can reap big rewards. I was speaking to someone at DTD recently who had been playing for 3 months and they only got into poker after watching Vicky's FT.

This kind of content will attract new blood far better than a guy in a foam sharks head randomly turning up.

The entire experience for recs is far better in a stars comp, just not when they are at the table IMO.

Keith - I hope you don't mind me saying that you have played on the live circuit for a number of years. :)

In your opinion what are/were the best tournaments in Europe, in terms of field strength, rake, venue, location, overall tournament experience?

I doubt even Stars would say that the rake should pay for the filming of the tournaments.

I remember Jon Raab telling me that when Blue Squirrel sponsored and paid for filming and televising on Channel 4 the first season of the GUKPT it cost them over £1 million.

That can only come out the company's advertising budget.

I would be amazed if Stars lose money from filming these donkfests after the fees they receive from selling the rights to tv companies must surely more than adequately cover the costs of filming them - if they didn't they would simply see it as an hour long advert on late night tv and justify it that way.  None of your rake would, or should, go towards filming these events for TV.  You should in reality get paid a fee for appearing if poker players were smart and knew the revenues that were generated from their attendance and investment into the event.  Imagine EPL players turning up to anfield and paying for the chance to play to earn their wages then the owners selling the rights to the TV companies and the players getting nothing in return for their images being used.

That's easy peasy.

Amsterdam for the Master Classics in the old days was unbelievable.

Every tournament the casino added giving back the entry fee for the bubble table (If 36 got paid, finishers 37 to 45 got their buyin back). In the €5000 main event that was 45k added money.

Also, the main event was juice free and they gave a special prize for people who made the FT. One year I got free entry to the WSOP main event and another year I got free entry to the following years Master Classics main event (brag I made the ft twice obv!)

They comped any player who cared to asked dinner in a very decent restaurant.

And the fields were super soft, loads of players who traditionally only played two tournament per year - that one and the big 7 stud event in Baden.

All in all it was poker players dream.

Still excellent value, but the free stuff stopped about 5 years ago unfortunately. But they are still very liberal with comps and the fields are much much weaker than the EPTs.

Amazing more British players didn't go really.

I am 99% sure Mr Channing has never been despite me telling him about the value on numerous occasions.

I went 10 years in a row I think.

The Aviation, Paris was fantastic in the old days too.

They did deals with local hotels which meant you could stay in a 4 or 5 star place for £50 per night.

Plus if you entered a tournament you were comped dinner in their high class restaurant. Must have been worth nearly £100 per head.

Dinner breaks there were awesome. None of this 45 minutes to grab a Big Mac rubbish. 2 and a half hours so you could fully enjoy the cuisine.

The first two, maybe three times I played the WSOP main event they charged $1 in rake.

Almost impossible to believe now, but I promise you it's true.

You were the only one not in a cowboy hat that year. How times have changed...

Plus I am reliably informed there some other attractions in Amsterdam apart from poker which might enhance the experience of being in town for a week.

I haven't looked into those though, waiting til I'm a bit older and wiser before indulging. Tikay might know them. He's been spotted there a couple of times.

Here's the proof:

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3527.0

The simple truth is 10 years ago every single casino/tournament operator charged a great deal less and provided the players with a better experience than they do today.

It wasn't long ago that tournaments in the UK weren't allowed to charge more than £25 in rake.

For example:

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=1815

The players have carried on turning up as the value has incrementally decreased.

It's only when we vote with our feet and stop showing up, that operators will be forced to offer us a slightly better deal.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=633

This one is even better!  £6000 + £30!  Wonder if there were complaints about the £25 max rake being exceeded by a fiver?

That was in the Isle of Man so Gaming Board rules didn't apply.

Ladbrokes guaranteed a milly for first and no other prizes.

Quite a few players refused to play under those conditions so they put thier hands in their pockets and added all the other prizes too.

Duthie used the money he won in this to set up the EPT.

Who knows what the state of Euro poker without him. It was his idea to have a tour of events leading to a big grand final.

We would probably still just have the mini festivals we had back then.

I've never cashed in a UKIPT or GUKPT. Both rubbish tours imo ;)

I don't think the UKIPTs are very good, not much fun, too many online qualifiers, I don't make an effort to travel to them really. Stars blows the competition out of the water though, everything so slick and well-run.

GUKPTs are much softer fields and lower rake sure, but that's because the quality of the product is lower. I think they've changed them now but they used to have the most awful chips. The dealers are noticeably worse, and prizepools a lot smaller than stars events. Also Stars run events in some actually decent places to travel to. Whereas the GUKPT seem to just pick the worst places in England and say "hey lets run a poker tournament here".

Just my 2 cents.

I agree about the dealers at most GUKPTs. Although it isn't necessarily their fault. They aren't used to dealing big poker tournaments and have to start somewhere.

Does piss me off a little bit when a local inexperienced dealer tries to play Billy Big Bollocks and enforce rulings without calling the floor or calls the clock without being asked by players.

The dealers from the Vic are almost all excellent and Grosvenor should ship 4 or 5 them around the country to deal the later stages of the GUKPT events.

I can't imagine how pissed off I'd be if an experienced dealer cost me a big pot by taking my cards when I'd raised or something similar.

I think this is a great point and a massive factor when considering where you play.

I really want to play The WPT £3K main at DTD but have to admit I am somewhat put off by the fact players can have four bullets if required .

I read, and re-read this thread twice over before electing to post a response. For those of you who know me, you'll know I am a Grosvenor man through and through - and whilst I no longer work at either Luton nor the GUKPT - you can quite rightly make the presumption that there's going to be a level of bias involved in my response.

The GUKPT exists to provide a 'festival' poker experience to UK poker players across their own venues around the country. This starts from the 'grass roots' aimed Goliath tournament - for the recreational player who simply cannot afford to punt it in for in excess of £1,000 - up to the Vic's Grand Final Event.

The use their own venues, thus while it's not a cost it is a disruption to the local business, and many tend to stay away from these festivals because it's simply far bigger than they're comfortable with. They have to pay upto 20% tax on all of the registration/revenue generated from hosting the event. They have to cover the cost of the dealing staff - who ironically are the same people that work on EPT/WPT and a myriad of other European events.

Stars are an online Internet giant that generate about as much in this profit as Grosvenor do in gross revenue - so the scale of sums involved and the difference is vast. They hold their events across Europe to attract a far better bankrolled level of player. The buy-in is smaller for their main event - but it attracts a different calibre of player on the whole. Not your average happy go lucky casino poker playing punter.

In all that they offer, they benefit by taxing the players more and paying less tax on all of the revenue generated. The cost of the staff is funded by the players. The venue is probably paid for by an agreement with the venue involving the revenue generated by the players, too.

In essence, whilst they are putting on a fantastic experience in exotic locations it is neither sharing the same targeted audience nor are the resources on a level playing field.

I understand that a casino is unlikely to attract sympathy - but they exist by fronting a bank to which a player can elect to gamble against them for slightly unfavourable odds. There is still a financial commitment and risk involved in this business. Poker players, most of whom don't touch a table game, seem to feel that a casino should make it all cheap as possible because someone, who isn't them, will cover the costs by doing their bollocks in the pit.

Pokerstars, on the other hand, risks nothing beyond fronting a platform for people to gamble against other people whilst taxing them for the privilege while contributing a minimal amount back in to the system. Thus, they generate sky high profits and make the appearance of looking after you all amazingly well. But they're just giving you pack a tiny piece of your own rake whilst probably making profit on the events by passing all the costs on to you.

I am, of course, biased. I also recognise Stars are catering to demand - but just try to keep it in scale. They make fortunes from -you- and you should expect an amazing time with good reimbursements. That's not entirely true when it comes to people playing at the GUKPT. They offer, in my opinion, a fantastic tour on limited resources.

The Main will be absolutely flooded with lolregs this year, and these regs are nothing like the regs of 4, 5, 6 years ago. That'll be down to the weekly G schedule these days.

Lynchy has disappeared, don't think Edna's playing, Nirvana is 1.01 to stuff the entry fee back into a pillow case and I'm a more doubtful runner than Muthmir after heavy overnight rain.

Thomas Bernard Myland will be present, though, most likely with a cashmere sweater draped round his shoulders if tonight is any guide.

Gl anyone taking part and may your God go with you.

Maybe it's an online thing or something, but the GUKPTs I've played in Walsall and Coventry were miserable affairs (even despite having Blatch a week prior blowup in one!) whereas the first UKIPT I went to in Galway, I met Sam Squid among others for the first time and it was genuinely one of the most fun poker events I've been to. Maybe it's just me, I really like meeting people I've been playing online with lots rather than withstanding a table with 8 of Britain's most sarcastic bitter regs (present company excluded!).

The re-entry effect is probably underestimated. I'd have to look at some numbers but if the GUKPTs are getting a decent amount of re-entries then it's very likely UKIPT is better value ROI% wise after rake. If GUKPTs abolished re-entry it would be a clear better value tournament to play. That said it is obviously better for the player if rake is reduced all round. I wasn't around for these glory days where casinos added 45k or chucked in a main event seat to final tablists and they sound cushy. But the market is a lot more competitive now. Players don't cash the main event and spunk it all up the wall at craps as often. Poker is no longer a loss leader and there is a bigger requirement for the poker tours to be self sufficient.

I think the payout structure argument is a bit mute. There are two things at play: a flatter payout structure takes money away from the best players and gives it to everyone else. Paying less people takes money away from the best players and gives it to everyone else. I think Stars have made a decent compromise. A lot of people satellite in and so they pay more places while still maintaining big first prizes. I'd hazard a guess that it lowers variance for good players more than say a flat payout structure with less places paid. If it were me I'd prefer top heavy not many places paid. But there is some value in maintaining local poker economies. And it's fine by me if Joe Mincasher wants to register the sunday million or take a shot at an EPT Satellite. Better than it being washed down in the abyss of the roulette hole.

The satellite argument is mute too. If Grosvenor were putting in 1/4 of their players from their site (or even live sats) there's a much higher chance regs would play it. The reason Aussie Millions has always been so successful (and quite popular among a lot of British pros old and new) is that they run live satellites all year round. No one resents them for raking $100 per player each time they do, because year on year they put in hundreds of people who wouldn't otherwise play in them and that creates values for pros while the recs get a spin.

Anyway, I'm not saying UKIPT London is better than GUKPT Luton value or experience wise. But I don't think it's worse and a lot of people like the atmosphere, the chance of getting mentioned on the Stars blog, getting to play with some Stars pros, meeting up with people they have been battling with online (the rec players love this too), playing somewhere that's not Luton, opportunity to qualify online in your pyjamas etc. Depends what your after I suppose. If you want to have the opportunity to win 6 figures, maybe play with Liv Boeree, get a bit of fame and glory for a brief moment in time then UKIPT is gonna be a better shout. If you want to sit in Luton on a Thursday night looking to grind out a profit and get live updates on which live pro is going to whine on social media next then maybe GUKPT is better value for you.

Oh regarding the patch thing - I'd be surprised if someone "forced" Jaffa to wear the patch or he can't play (it's possible of course), I have won a seat to Stars events before and worn another patch, even after asking. Stars often take photos of pros wearing other patches and put it on their blog. I don't think they feel too threatened.

Great post!

Something that is not strictly relevant to an A vs B debate, but that I always wonder when discussion comes up about how much a casino charges in rake to make a poker tournament worthwhile:

A poker tournament that is in a casino is primarily run to get punters through the door, so that they might gamble on the table games during the breaks, or after their tournament is over. How much of a factor is there that the average amount gambled per head has gone down over the last 10 years, and is this a threat at all to casinos wanting to put on a poker tournament?

People used to enjoy poker because they were old school gamblers, and the two were nicely merged. Now, there must be a trend that the type of person getting into poker has done so because they enjoy games rather than gambling, strategy rather than superstition, and are more aware of the mathematical edge that the house has. There must be a number of the top UK poker players who have barely staked a penny on tables games whilst at a casino poker tournament.

They generally qualify around 1/4 in my experience.

Is it fair to say that there's a generational gap between preference for Casino Poker festivals and the metropolitan party feel to Stars events?

An excellent post Rupert (apart from using the word "mute" when you meant "moot".  That was tilting. What do they teach you at university these days?)

Maybe I was coloured by the thoroughly miserable experience I had on my first table at the UKIPT. If I was a novice who was having my first spin at a poker tournament and landed there. I doubt there would be a return visit.

I do have one question though. How many of the 1080 players in the UKIPT ME do you think were +ev after 14% juice and (let us estimate) £250 in expenses?

G at Luton is full of fanny on the pi55 on a Friday and Saturday -surely that's a better reason to play it ??

Yeah the westend is deserted

Luton is classy birds though innit  ;djinn;

FYP

They're higher maintenance tho
A few years ago in the smoking cage at luton it was "" ooh you're a poker player ?"
You could almost tell they were getting damp downstairs at the prospect of a bad beat story
You'd need a Bentley story to achieve the same with a west end girl

Aston Martin stories just don't quite cut it!

If its deserted just get on Tinder Flushy....here its a ten minute success rate for you ;)

Lots of love...the saftey net has grown up ha ha

Hi guys,

My penniesworth;

1. Re-Entry - as an operator - I am totally against same day re-entry, but I don't mind the format where you can re-enter into the next day, therefore the last day 1 becomes a freeze-out i.e. more even playing field. The reason I am in favour of next day re-entry is that it allows travelling players to effectively play 2 tournaments for 1 set of expenses and if your mate gets through to Day 2, you have another shot. So why do we have same day re-entry at DTD???? - one simple reason - players are OVERWHELMINGLY in favour of it at ALL levels of buy-in, especially when they bust out. I have had many debates on re-entry, for 6 months we stopped allowing it in the club - and our unique players went DOWN by 25%, and there was uproar when players turned up and busted out and we wouldn't allow them to re-enter. Re-Entry is BAD for the casino operators as players put money into a poker prizepool that is won by 10% of the field, instead of spending it on cash games, F & B and casino games., the additional rake is peanuts to the negative effect this has on overall spend per head to the operator. Only PokerStars can get away with refusing the re-entry option to players, and even now almost all PokerStars events except the main event are re-entry, which 'keeps the pros sweet' to a certain extent. Poker Tours cannot exist without pros and wealthy amateurs. Everyone can type from their armchair 'no-entry' is better, but as soon as they bust out, the same people are then asking to re-enter. Very frustrating because re-entry is bad for players and operators in the long term. One further point of re-entry, say we used to play a £1000 comp with a £100K GTE, if the buy-in drops to £500 but the GTE still remains at £100K, this mitigates the re-entry 'taking too much out of players pockets' situation somewhat, but overall, Re-entry is bad for everyone - operators and players - it just benefits winning pros or wealthy amateurs where money is no object.

2. Tournament Rake - I can tell you from experience of DTD and knowledge of other tours that I am privy to, that poker tournaments are incredibly unprofitable, you would have to charge 20% rake to turn a profit on the real costs of running a half decent poker event. Factor in promotions. free rolls, satellites, on top of extra floorstaff, the cost of salaries dedicated to these tours plus logistical expenses of running something bigger than normal, to my knowledge only the WSOP in Las Vegas could claim to make a genuine profit. To give you an idea, as at today, the WPT pre-expenses have already cost us £150K and the event is still 4 weeks away - I'd expect the total cost to DTD to be £500K+. So why are there so many tours persisting nowadays if they really do lose money - the answer is simple - because whatever the live and online gaming companies see their competition doing - they feel they have to follow suit in fear of losing market share. In my opinion the WSOP have got it right in terms of how they charge rake, everyone pays $10,000 and their rake is taken out of the winners prizepool rather than charging a reg fee on top, say $10000 + $600 - of course its better for 'winning players' to play events with reg fees on top, but its better for poker ecology overall to take the reg fees from the winners prizepool, that's simple economics for an event where only 10-15% are paid.

3. Payouts - I am personally as a player in favour of a higher min cash and paying 10%, but for a sustainable poker ecology, it's better to pay as deep as possible, like PokerStars do. This an example of me (as a player) wanting what's bad for poker as a whole, I am guilty of wanting to play events with unlimited re-entries and super top heavy payouts, so I need the Operators to NOT do what I want as a player.

In my honest opinion - PokerStars are hanging on to the ethics of what is good for the poker ecology (resisting re-entries in most main events, qualifying recreational players for pennies, spending money on TV advertising raising awareness about poker, sponsoring celebs like Rafael Nadal, paying deep etc). Why are they doing this ? Simple reason - they ARE 90% of the poker ecology - so they really do need to do what's in the best interests of the game. I wish we could do the same at DTD, but we are just not 0.000000000001% powerful enough to do so.


So, with so many things WRONG in poker at the moment, why has the poker bubble not burst yet? Simple - the major operators are billion dollar companies that can afford to sustain it, poker improves footfall stat's both live and online, the stock markets like footfall stats, the stock traders run for cover when they see customer footfall down - so for the moment, we will see more and more tours and events and the market will become even more saturated. Tier 2 operators (meant in the politest way as I consider PokerStars and WSOP as Tier 1 market leaders) such as DTD, Grovesnor, Genting + Co, will have to give poker players what want even if it's not in the overall best interests of the game.

Cheers Rob



 

Oioi, Claypole found a fella to settle down with?

These two ways are exactly the same - the WSOP entry could just as easily be written $9400+$600.

Very interesting post Rob.

TBH I think what is happening is gambling as both a serious recreation and a profession is getting suffocated from every angle, rake and juice shooting up everywhere, player pools and national markets segregated, high stakes cut off online, bookmakers squeezing savvy punters  etc and its making it fairly infuriating for professional players to sustain themselves...

This is obviously very annoying as it's hitting people in the pockets, but IMO it's been a relative free-for-all for years and years and only now it's finally catching up, I don't blame the operators, or the governments for this at all I think it's just the way of the world.

Casual recreational gamblers (who must make up 85%+ of the overall gambling market) are virtually unaffected (well they are effected by the effect is fairly negligible to them) and because of this it's fair game imo. Everything will be fine, except a few "pro's" that might have to dust the CV off.

I went up to Luton last night and played some sats for gukpt main and the 6 max.

I have nothing bad to say about the people running it, I think they are a good bunch and I like the fact they bring in some of the top management from the vic to oversee things.

However I don't ever seem to enjoy a grosvenor event like I do a stars event... I say this with respect but it literally is like sitting in a morge.  I like to think of myself as a part time player who is trying to grind it out again so surely I should be more moody than most of these regulars?

I mean they just don't make you feel welcome, actually totally the opposite and they get away with it and have done for so long, it's no wonder the gukpts aren't getting the numbers of late compared to the stars events.

I agree with rob I think re entries are absolutely awful for a 1k and it literally only appeals to people who have money to burn because let's face it, who in there right mind who is mentally stable is going to want to re load 4 times in one day?!

There should be way more sats done online and they need to promote it better like rob started doing with dtd I'm sure his sattelite figures have increased from a year ago.

Stars events are not exactly entertaining by all means but I have never been made to feel uncomfortable in ANY event I've played they have put on and there may not be much talking all of the time majority if not all players at the table have respect for other people sat there too.

And charging £3 for a can of red bull just to have the privilege of drinking it inside your casino because you want to gain huge profit from food and beverage is pretty insulting tbh. It is the same can the same drink you make enough from table games and cash game rake, you shouldn't punish customers who want a non alcoholic drink just because you are not making huge amounts for putting on tournaments.

I can confirm that when we removed re-entry from DTD tournaments our unique numbers plummetted for that 6 month period and it was a huge gripe with players. Whilst Rob is against same day re-entry I am actually in favour of what I call 'Limited Re-Entry' where is a player busts in the first 60 minutes the player can re-enter. This deals with the gripe of 'I've travelled 300 miles and had AA cracked all in pre flop'. However, as with anything in poker, the market will decide over time what the right balance is.

In terms of GUKPT V UKIPT, I have played both and I view them as different products, I feel GUKPT and GPS have a more local feel and for some players who cannot travel round the tours, they are their 'local championships', where as UKIPT is much more of a 'Tour'. I would play both if I had the time, I like the UKIPT because of the professional feel, it's like an 'event', but I also like the GUKPT because it reminds of my playing days and there is something nice about playing a smaller field where you know most of the players.

In terms of the tournament reg fees, being on the other side of the fence now and understanding the costs, I am happy with 10% reg fee either on top or from prizepool, as long as the tournament has a decent gaurentee and the staff are friendly, which both of these events are.

On another note, live players have an amazing choice compared to when I was playing full time, when I hear pros / circuit regulars moan, I can't believe how easily we forget so how things used to be, the facilities, choice, structures, added money/overlays, opportunities to qualify and guaranteed prizepools are amazing in the UK nowadays for live players.

Cheers Aces

Some interesting points Dreenie, I think I may have played with you (if you are the same person that had the table in stitches about wanting to pay £1.20 for a Redbull and asking to speak to the manager, if not I apologise, there is obviously more people that have a problem with the price of a Redbull)

Anyway, I wanted to pick up on a couple of points, I can understand your issue with some players not making you feel welcome, I've felt this myself before and sometimes still do (even though I May go upto 3/4 times a week), however there are far more people that make you feel welcome and are a pleasure to sit and play with, have a chat and some great conversation, I would hate to think that your opinion is based around a few regs that are not that welcoming when I really do thnk these are in the minority not the majority.

You have mentioned your dislike of the cost of certain drinks but you haven't mentioned that the Casino offer a variety of drink free of charge, zero money, not a extra penny from your pocket for Tea, Coffee, Hot Choc, Latte, Cappacino, any draught soft drink ( coke, diet coke, lemonade etc etc) all squashes as well. The valets are excellent and will even bring you an ice cold water directly to your table ( although if you would rather not wait you can get hot drink from the machine yourself and also the water machine). I sometimes think people take this for granted and do not understand how privileged they are that this is provided. I recently went to the Vic and had to pay for all of the above, not much (£1.50 I think, although the water was free), also when I visit my parents in Kent I go to Thanet G and they also charge for drinks. My point is that yes I agree that some of the drinks have a high mark up but at least at Luton there is an alternative that will not cost you anything.

This week I've met some wonderful people for all over the country and I have thoroughly enjoyed welcoming these people to Luton, I myself my not have been as welcoming all week, it can get quite tough sitting all day, bubbling sats, getting bad beats and still staying happy but you are right it certainly shouldn't be like a morge and you should always feel like you are welcome somewhere. Next time your around come and find me and we shall have a good moan together, you might remember me if you are the person having a whine about the Redbull, I'll be the person who knocked you out of the weds night Sat (sic brag!!!) if not give me a shout on here first and I'll find you.

Yes I am the that person ! Haha

And fair point about the free drinks however that personally doesn't affect me as if I was to order a coke there would always be a tip given so essentially I am paying for it and let's be honest it's not top quality coke a cola? I had one before the red bull fiasco and it tasted very strange yet had still given the young lady 1.50£ tip.

Anyway I understand it's a business etc but I can't understand why they charge so high honestly I don't.  I'm not tight, far from it but it is the principle, it is a disgrace now establishments get away with this sort of thing imo. I didn't even want a glass that's how funny the whole thing is!

It's like they can't charge normal prices for the identical stuff u get in a shop elsewhere, as they feel they don't make enough elsewhere... or is it that they are just like poker players squeezing out of the economy until it's dry? Because it may well be 2 different things but that's what it feels like.

Anyway I will admit when I played my 2nd sattelite by the bar area I had a lot more fun than in the actual card room and yes you were very friendly... nice to meet you and hope u won the seat after fishing me with the dead man's hand 😉

Red Bull is shit, and pointless... unless you're using it for Jaegerbombs ;)

Haha, yeah it was a laugh, you was highly entertaining at how disgusted u were about the price, I actually agree with you but I choose not to buy it, anyway I did finally get a seat so I certainly put your chips to good use. Look forward to playing with you again some time.

How much is red bull at other venues?

£3 a tin of Red Bull is bog standard stuff in most pubs/clubs and has been for a long while

Grovesnors class themselves as such as they have a late licence (2am 7 days a week)

Not sure you can ever compare what you pay in a shop to a late licence venue tbh

Table Six
Seat One – Brihesg Das
Seat Two – Neel Chudasama
Seat Three – Thomas Myland
Seat Four – Bruce Atkinson
Seat Five – Alan Gray
Seat Six – Vince Calenti
Seat Seven – Dean Clay
Seat Eight – Graham Wheldon
Seat Nine – Arron Woodcock

gl to the blondes on this table at Luton today.

http://www.gukpt.com/gukpt-2014-leg-9-luton-day-1b-blog/  Go to 2.10 mins on the cardroom pan video for a great rubdown for celtic and chompy from tower on the comms!

Agree £3 seems fine

Of course it's standard and that's the problem ALL venues charge far too much for soft drinks, they are entitled to do that and I am entitled not to buy it. Great to have the choice.

Would be fine if they put a shot of vodka in it ! :D

Ya so in any tournament the proportion of winning players is a function of rake (and expenses of course - I actually spent less than £250 this week even after losing 2 CCRs, brag). I'm not really sure how many players are long term winners in any tournament (I should probably have at least a good guess of this but I have no idea!) - it depends on the make up of the field a lot - for example if an elite player plays a SNG with 9 fish of varying abilities, the elite player takes a lot of the equity away to the point where by there could only be one long term winner in the game. In a tournament like a UKIPT which is generally somewhat scarce of >100% ROI players (although I'd hazard a guess that there are some albeit a handful) I'd imagine something like 30% of players are winning after rake, and maybe 5% are winning after expenses, which varies vastly depending on how many bottles of champagne they want to pop after busting.

It's true that for most players it's not going to be worth travelling to play a tournament series after expenses and expect to make money in the long run. If your sole income is from poker then you should be considering opportunity cost of either other live tournaments or online. Part of the attraction for even some mid-stakes online winners and very likely all high-stakes online winners is that they are going to have a positive winrate in pretty much every Stars run live series because there are many events they can play, all of which they should be winning in. If they are so inclined there's many ways to keep expenses down which increases their ROI. Game selection is important of course, but the attraction of playing an average of say £1.5k of tournies (IDK how many times good pros bust in the early levels but they'd be foolish not to take the re-entry opportunity if they consider themselves one of the better players so 1.5 buyins in a GUKPT is a guess) in a GUKPT versus an average of £2k of buyins in a UKIPT as well as the EPT behind it is going to be significantly different.

Fortunately for lots of people playing the UKIPT London, the expenses are relatively low. A lot of people live there so would pay their cost of living anyway (again no data on where people in the field are from but I think it's a fair assumption). For any travelling live pro I think they are going to have a hard time justifying playing either the UKIPT or GUKPT and no side events. For the travelling enthusiast I think the enjoyment they get from the tournament should weigh in more heavily, the buyin size should be a factor (£310 difference is quite a lot for most non-pros), and of course how high their return on the tournament after expenses should be a factor. So it all just depends on your situation as to which would be a better choice to play. If £250 expenses is accurate, and say GUKPT is £150 expenses, then this factor obviously weighs in far more heavily than the rake and we should all be lobbying Stars for UKIPT Middlesbrough.

I'm fairly anti-monopolies and I don't think it's great that Stars has all the power, but that's the way it is because they developed a competitive advantage through their superior software and premium customer support, as well as strong business ethics. Unfortunately the barriers to entry for a new or existing provider to compete effectively are very high financially and reputation wise. Stars is the best, it sucks to be dependent on them, but at least they're not too evil. One good thing is that since every other site has declined (Paradise, Party, Tilt), Stars now has a vested interest in broadening the market as a whole, and I think they are doing a good job with TV shows, Nadal, etc. It will be exciting to see what develops in a fully regulated US market and see if any of the big casinos want to battle. It seems like it's happening slowly and Ultimate Poker have established a nice niche in Nevada, but again it sounds like all the sites in New Jersey are continuing to suck at their operations as they likely always will. I think Party Poker are lucky that Stars are so incentivised to grow the market because that site would be dead in the water without Stars actually doing a good job, and it seems it's mostly down to incompetent management decisions.

:)

Well played Chirpy Chompy