blonde poker forum

I got myself in two near identical spots in PLO cash games last week, & probably made a pigs ear of one.

The 2 hands were both on flops of (ignore suits)....

The first hand was in 4 card PLO.

J-Q-x

(x is a brick).

In the first, I held.....

7-8-9-10

I bet the flop & got re-potted. What should be our normal line here, after he re-pots me? How bad shape am I likly to be in with the wrong end of the draw? (It's irrelative, but I got it in).

The 2nd was perhaps my worst fold ever, but this was 6 card.

Again, the flop was....

J-Q-x

X, once again, is a blank.

I am holding 10-10-9-8-7-3

I dwelt forever on this, mesmeriesed by my two blocker tens, & my abundance of non-nut outs. (This was 6 card, remember). Many years ago, I was taught that the 10 is a very important card in PLO, especially when we are playing Broadway type hands.

I eventually folded to a big re-pot behind me.

Bad fold? How much difference does holding 10-10 (i.e. TWO blockers) make to my hand?

Could you give approximate stack sizes, please? What would "getting it in" look like, here? 50bb? 100bb? 200?

Active game? Do we assume you have a tight image? Do much bet+3betting on Broadway flops?

Obv as Tal says stack sizes might make a difference, but with any depth I'm def folding both these. 

To Tal & 2Xup.

It was a £2 £2 £5 Game that was playing (to my mind) very deep & very aggro, with several very aggro players sitting with £5,000 plus. My image was tighty-tight tight, obviously.

In truth, my problem was that the game had become too big for me, & I was playing scared. By dint of some extraordinary good fortune, I was sitting very deep myself at this point.

I felt so nitty folding the 6 card one where I had the blocker tens. Having dwelt for so long, John Duthie sussed my hand afterwards, & (playfully) mocked me for folding. The bottom end hit, obv, but that's not relevant.

With the blocker tens, it must be close, though?  

I'm maybe too nitty, but I think with bottom end str8s baby flushes, I'm trying to find a way to realise my equity without putting too much in the pot.  

Me too. You could be drawing almost dead here.

2nd hand is not even a tight fold. I thought you were a nit?

I'm retired from Team Nit.

In truth, with the 2 blocker tens, I'd generally get it in there, but I was playing too deep, & bottled it.

I'm not convinced it is a tight fold, they don't have to have a 10, do they? They were playing 2 pair like top set. 

In the 6card hand have you bet the Q J x flop and been raised? How many players in the hand? How much £££ you got behind? I cant see too much information in the post.

Could just keep it simple and say... You have been raised i have no idea how much money is in pot and behind etc but you have 3 nut outs.

I potted, I got 2 customers, the first flatted, the next potted.

I'm sitting very deep. It's either fold, or the lot has to go in.

Fold rather than get it in for me on both I think, definately 6 card anyway, don't think I'm ever surprised to find villain with 2 pair/set with the same or better draw.  It's so easy to get stacked in 6card and be sat saying to yourself "what on earth was I thinking!"

Everyone thinks 6card is some huge action game when in reality you would most likely just be against AK109 and QQ/JJ.

Really enjoy these PLO 4/5/6 threads though.

Very true this, and you do get a few going crazy, but really most are getting it in with a very nuts heavy range

Both hands are folds, the second hand especially so. The non-nut wrap is a pretty budget hand in 4 card PLO, but in 6 card it is a total piece of cheese, especially when deep.

The second hand is no-where even close to being all-in, in fact it's a check fold betting your hand here was a mistake, getting the lot in after it is suicide.

your 2 TEN blockers are irrelevant almost. Any hand that is for value, a set or maybe 2p will v likely have nut straight outs (AK or AT certainly) alongside it and your hand has ZERO showdown value, to use a holdem equivalent you  7d 8s on  Tc Jc  3h

The first is defo a lot closer, it depends on the action and the player, I assume from reading it what has happened is you have raised pre-flop, C-bet and been raised and you're OOP? Stack sizes and the play your against come into it but folding is for sure standard here, the bet though is absolutely fine.

 

Also SUITS are always relevant. Less so when your draws are 9high, but they still matter. Probably fold pre too.

Need stack/pot/bet sizes in the first to be sure. I want to say probably fold though.

6c check fold flop.

I can't seem to link in the thread on my phone but in the learning centre there is a 5 card Omaha thread started by biggy333 or similar from June 2012 where Honeybadger just gives the best advice ever for anyone about multicard plo theory.

It just re instates how much you don't want to ever get blown off your hand when you have equity to realise, and how vital it is to have nut draws

I think had 1 is interesting especially if you open pre flop, its pretty gay having to bet fold 789T when you have so much equity so I think check calling flop and then deciding would be a good idea

Hand 2 is definitely a fold for reasons all ready said.

Thanks for all the responses.

There is, of course, a backstory, which involves psychology, & my mindset, & lack of gamble. We almost never discuss "mindset" & psychology here, but it's a huge part of how we play.

I played 4 PLO sessions, & was somewhat fortunate to come away very much on the right side. By my standards, it was a great deal of money.

In the session those 2 hands occurred, I was, at the time, over £4,000 up from a £300 pull up. Please don't think it was any particular skill, I just hit some nice hands, (oh, you assumed that anyway?....), & the table was incredibly loose & aggro.

I've never had that much in front of me in a PLO cash game before, & I froze up a bit. I had no intention of locking up, & I agreed to stay at the table until DTD closed - it just seemed right & proper. On the first session I had quit at the pre-agreed time whilst £1,300 ahead, & I got a fair bit of negative comment about it. (I played badly the next night & lost £700, & on session 4, I lost £800).   

John Duthie, who I like immensely, & one or two others, started making niggly comments that I had locked up. I just could not find the correct spots though, & I'm generally extremely selective with my starting hands. But I'm a bit thin-skinned when a table full of punters keep telling me I've locked up.

For context, the session in which I made the big profit just got more & more aggro, & loose, it was pre-flop "punting". Nothing wrong with PLO "punting", but it's not for me, I need to see flops. But it was becoming £150 to see a flop, & you knew any flop would be 4 or 5 way, & was getting potted.

Then the awful moment arose which is the backstory to all this.

I flopped an absolute beaut of a flop in 6 card, I had the nut draw to everything, think you'd call it a super-wrap. I had no decent flush draws, and any set I could hit would be bad for me. So, the monster nut straight draw, with every extension "up", & nothing else.

With £700 or in the middle, when I had some £4,000 behind, Duthie said "pot", & the guy behind him called. So, over £2,000 sat there. And I just froze. After considerable thought, I bottled it, & folded. (I would have got the lot, a £10,000+ pot, but that's not relevant). It was the worst feeling you can imagine. Not because I would have won, that never bothered me., but because I completely bottled it.

My head was abso spinning, I went outside for a smoke to try & calm down.

Then, those 2 hands I mentioned earlier arose. By this time, my confidence was in bits. (But I still had most of that pile of money in frot of me). And when I dwell-folded the 6 card hand, (a correct fold, you all agree) I got a fair bit of (gentle?) abuse from 2 guys.

I was pretty sure I was right to fold, but with all the comments, I was in bits, & did not know what day it was.

It was a defining moment, realising that I don't have the stomach for cash games as big as that. I just never imagined a £2 £2 cash game could get so big. I did not enjoy it, truth to tell.

I think I have a decent grasp of 4, 5 & 6 card theory, & the difference between nut & non-nut draws, & know exactly what my pre-flop ranges should be. These guys cast so much doubt in my mind, though, I came home in absolute bits. Guess they won the mind-games.

On a lighter note, I did manage a huge "bare ace" bluff against Mitch Johnson in session 1, which pleased me no end. He called my flop bet on a one suit flop (I just had the Ace), but I did manage to fire again on the turn., & after a dwell in which I aged 11 years & crapped myself, he folded top set. Yikes.

There you go, confessions of a nit, laid bare.

Also for context, I am ring-rusty in PLO cash games (I never play NLH cash), & had not played PLO cash since Vegas. I do play PLO8 every single night that I am not working - but it's seriously small-ball, just £5.50 & £11 PLO8 SNG's. I'm around £1,600 ahead in those little online games, but that took over a year to accumulate. I play technically good, I'd say, (though just ABC) & never ever play scared - I completely trust my skill & judgement, get it in in the right spots, & don't care if I win or lose, because I am 100% confident that I can't lose, over time. I enjoy those little online games immensely, I can't begin to tell you how much pleasure I get from them. I maybe play 30 games per night, so I invest about £200, & rarely win or lose more than £50 in a session. But it seems the step up to big money is not for me, because despite winning all that money - almost twice as much in 4 nights as I have won on a year of Online small-ball - I was incredibly uncomfortable for much of the time.

The buzz was amazing though, I'll admit that.

haha, as if anyone would :P

I do find it funny that the TV poker analyst posts hand histories without mentioning things like suits and stack sizes but at your age we can't blame you too much, it's just lucky that you remember you were playing cards the previous day nevermind remembering rank and suits.

Banter aside, I really enjoy reading these hand histories and the so honest thought processes about not enjoying a session where the game was too big. I recently played the biggest NL cash game I have with $40/80 blinds and I felt some of those emotions to some extent. The thought of losing $20k in one hand that was simply a 'cooler' wasn't the nicest thought. Happy that the experience puts me in better stead for the next time a situation arrises in which my EV in a cash game I perceive to be very high and would have to play again though.

With regard to the 'locking up' comments. These are so standard from cash game regs. It's just their way of getting you too loosen up and make it easier for them to win that money back. You know this of course. Just dont let it bother you so much.

Interesting about locking up. You was in for £300 pull up? Had you intended to pull up more if that went? Playing "scared money" is definitely a problem in those types of games I guess. I know I'd feel out of my comfort zone! :)

Sorry for the delayed reply Simon, been meaning to reply all week.

I pulled up for £300, with £700 more in my pocket to pull up if needed. I had it behind the cash desk at DTD from my PLO bink last year, so I'd be fine with that, not play scared at all.

The problem was that (sounds thin, but you did ask), I soon had over £4,000 in front of me.

That was when the problem surfaced. I had a wonderful draw, but I knew if I continued, I would have to get the lot in. I'd have scooped as it hapened, close to £12,000, but that did not trouble me really, it's too easy to look back when it suits, & ignore it when it does not.

I just did not much fancy losing all that cash, even though it was almost all profit. That's a lot of money to me. I just sat down to have some fun with a bunch of mates, playing a game I love. Not played proper PLO since Vegas, & I was gagging. 

I guess I just found my comfort level, or more correctly, my discomfort level. 

Remember, for context, I play almost every night Online, in little £5 & £10 SNG's, & I get my little gambling buzz from them. A profit in those Online SNG's of £1,700 has taken me over a year to accumulate - suddenly I'm looking at putting £4,000 into a single pot. It's all out of kilter.

Think I played 4 sessions, & managed to make about £2,500 in the end. I was chuffed to bits with that, could not be happier. It's in the Vegas fund, fingers crossed.

The key point is that you did not have a wonderful draw. The T98 bottom wrap on QJx is a very marginal hand in 4 card Omaha, and is super marginal - and often unplayable - when facing heavy action in a multiway pot with deep stacks. At 6 card Omaha the bottom wrap it is pretty much complete and utter junk, especially when the pot is multiway and stacks are deep. Yes you would have scooped this hand if you'd have played, but you still made the correct fold. You think that you made the correct fold for the wrong reasons. i.e. you thought the correct poker play was to gamble with the hand but you did not do so due to the psychological reasons you describe. But it is possible that you are wrong about this...

Imagine you held Ahrt Kc Th Ts 9c 6s on a flop of Qh Jh 7c - would you have been prepared to put the entire 4k in the pot? Because in this case the correct poker play would be to play for the lot. If you would have happily committed all your chips in this latter case then it is possible that the real reason you chose to fold your crappy bottom wrap in the hand you described is not fear, but rather because your (perhaps subconscious) understanding of poker told you that your hand was crap and that the correct poker play was to fold.

I think even I would have got it in as quick as a flash with that one Stu.

My thought process may have been sub-conscious, yes, it's hard to know, isn't it?

My head just got in a mess. I'm crap at making moves & all that stuff, but my grasp of the essentials is quite reasonable, I think.

And yes, I know all about bad draws, & what we need in 6 Card O.

But the table was super loose, (really bad in 2 spots), & I kept looking at my paired tens & thinking, "but yes, I have two blockers & these guys are getting it in bad SO often". 

The longer I thought about it, the more mentally uncomfy I became, & then all these bad thoughts came into my mind. 

So yeah, you may be right.

Afterwards, of course, after John Duthie asked me what I had folded - in fact he correctly guessed - I got some gentle ribbing from the table, & I was a bit, you know, sort of thin-skinned & mentally on the defensive.

Appeciate the reply - an interesting angle.

As usual Stu has nailed it and covered all the angles.

Sounds like the perfect table to be honest if they are ribbing you after this fold.

Yeah the more I think about it, the more it seems pretty clear what went on 'behind the scenes' in this hand. You knew perfectly well that the right play was to fold. But the intensity and adrenaline of facing a decision for such a large sum of money caused you to lose objectivity and resulted in a brain freeze. You started doubting your own judgement, your mind became almost paralysed.

But you made the right fold!

Now after the event you are still a bit freaked out by the experience, by the rush you had, and also by the brain freeze you had. And as part of this you are doubting yourself and worrying that the amount of money at risk clouded your judgement and caused you to make the wrong decision.

But remember... you made the right fold!

Instead of doubting yourself and losing confidence, this experience should actually increase your confidence in your poker play. Because when the pressure was at its highest and your conscious mind was paralysed, all the experience and knowledge you have built up over the years led to you still making the right poker play. Conscious, subconscious, it doesn't really matter. The point is that you did the right thing when the chips were down.

I'd dismiss all the negative thoughts you still seem to be harbouring about this hand if I were you Tikay. Instead, you should look back on this hand with pride in your play, and also with real pleasure. That buzz you felt during the hand, scary but fun like a rollercoaster, that is one of the things that makes poker such a great game. Can you keep your head when all around are losing theirs? You proved to yourself that you can.

one hand sticks in my mind more than any other in poker, was during the very early stages of my run at high stakes live poker games.

I dont really remember the action but the river is the crucial bit.

The flop was Ax  Th 9h and I bet out as the preflop raiser, my hand was somethign like  Qh  Jh 9s 7s then this player called John, real real good PLO player, one of the best i played raised me and we were playing really deep, I think over $40,000. I called

Turn was offsuit 7 he bet again, I called.

I had a real feeling at this point his hand was AT/A9 with the  Ahrt - we were HJ vs BTN and he'd been attacking me quite hard and I was sure the majority of half decent suited hands he'd 3bet pf, also there was a real wild player in the BB who would overcall all sorts of bad draws so if he had the NFD I really felt he'd flat as he's likely got something else with it too, another pair, gutter etc. This was my read on the situation.

River was a heart, I checked and he potted - $18,000 - this was the biggest bet I'd ever faced to call off, and the pot was gonna be $54,000 if I call. My plan had been all along to call a heart, however soon as he threw 3x $5k and 3x $1k out I just insta froze up, started shaking and didnt know what to do, I had the money in my hands and was like jesus am I really gonna call this off, I tanked for about 5 minutes and in that time I thought about poker for maybe 3-5 seconds, just panicking about the money.

Then after 4 1/2 minutes I stood up shook my head and just thought FUCK IT DAVE YOU SAT DOWN TO PLAY, NOW PLAY THE GAME. Threw the money in, he announces two pair and I scoop the pot.

One of my favorite poker hands that one.

Until you've been in a spot where you're faced with a big call for big money you never know the adrenaline and the buzz it causes and how very easily it can cloud your judgement and lose objectivity as Stu said, simply put you start thinking that £4k can buy X Y Z and not about the poker hand - the cards dont give a fuck about the money at the end of the day.

When your in such a state anything anyone says to you can have a big effect as your so emotionally venerable in those moments

I had to take a walk after the Queen flush hand, I could barely breath.

GIQ ffs

Got it loudly, had it loudly and lost it loudly :-)

Taps table. Mucks.

raise imo to protect your air range