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PokerStars Game #3805204406: Tournament #18898970, Hold'em No Limit - Level I
(10/20) - 2006/01/30 - 09:47:32 (ET)
Table '18898970 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DrDre_Snoop (1480 in chips)
Seat 2: Ace_7Dust (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: bullettt (1780 in chips)
Seat 4: Da Toothpick (1620 in chips)
Seat 5: tamalay (1350 in chips)
Seat 6: AceBTrue (1300 in chips)
Seat 7: DonH86 (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: lazaroonie (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: the gaylover (1480 in chips)
tamalay: posts small blind 10
AceBTrue: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lazaroonie [Qs Qc]
DonH86: folds
lazaroonie: raises 60 to 80
the gaylover: folds
DrDre_Snoop: folds
Ace_7Dust: folds
bullettt: folds
Da Toothpick: folds
tamalay: calls 70
AceBTrue: folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 6s 4c]
tamalay: checks
lazaroonie: bets 150
tamalay: raises 150 to 300
lazaroonie: raises 1120 to 1420 and is all-in
tamalay: calls 970 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Td 6s 4c] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [Td 6s 4c Kc] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tamalay: shows [Tc 6c] (two pair, Tens and Sixes)
lazaroonie: shows [Qs Qc] (a pair of Queens)
tamalay collected 2720 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2720 | Rake 0
Board [Td 6s 4c Kc 2d]
Seat 1: DrDre_Snoop folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Ace_7Dust folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: bullettt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Da Toothpick (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: tamalay (small blind) showed [Tc 6c] and won (2720) with two pair, Tens
and Sixes
Seat 6: AceBTrue (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: DonH86 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: lazaroonie showed [Qs Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 9: the gaylover folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Why? Would that kind of thing not happen in a live tourney.

calling a raise of 70 (less than 5% of your stack) as an underdog then putting the other 95% of it in as favourite?

Yep, don't really see what you're getting at here..

I know what laz means, The online players can sometimes be too eagre to call all in with any hand, It happens in live game tourneys as well however I would say less frequently, as in a live game there is generally one tourney per night, where as online there is another tourney starting in a minute, there is a lot more players willing to gamble with trash in order to break the monster starting hands.

but he's calling the large all in bet with the top two pairs - and on a raggidy ten high flop you have to think that the top two pairs is good.

I understand what you are getting at as i've played in many a tourney where they will call the all in bet with nothing but top pair alone - but then thats what i want as i know that more often than not i will win more times than i lose.

I think you would find that a lot of good players (both live and online) will also usually take a few more chances calling small raises with marginal hands early on in tourneys as it's relatively cheap compared to the overall stack size. All it takes is one nice flop and there is a good chance that you are looking at a decent payout

It's pretty clear from the betting that laz has an overpair, no-one folds top two pair here.  As Matt says stacks are deep compared to blinds at the moment so a 4*BB raise is very small and some players will be taking chances with lesser cards than they would to a 4*BB raise later in the tournament.  I'm not saying laz's raise is too small, he's not done anything wrong, its just an unfortunate situation.

Laz got his  Qs Qc busted by a bloke playing a  Tc 6c, Hw as really unlucky as in a decent live game most people would not call the preflop raise with that garbage, I will admit that Laz was unlucky but Online this happens so much more often as people know that another tourney will start soon and it they go bust then no worries.

I will say that I probably would have raised more preflop in order to take the pot there as there is the internet player that like s to play the raggy ace in the hopes of catching anything.

This is just my opinion and probably not shared by everyone, I prefer Live games as there is a better quality of game played. IMHO.

I disagree with that billy, certainly not at the level that me and you play at live. 

Well thats can be argued, as there are games where its a good solid poker night with little gambling, however there are the occassional nutters that come in to the foray who will take any 2 cards.

If for example we had a table with , You , Me, MikkyT, Tank, Andrew, Timaloy, Dave C, Teacake, Scottish Dave and Tony C.  That would be a solid poker fest with  few buyins but some great poker being played as the quality of the players justifies it.

We get the lucky fish and the gamblers that will draw to 1 or 2 outers or will play garbage from any position ( assuming they know about position ) however on the whole there is some good poker played live at Cincins and that why I prefer live to internet, You can steamroll over most of the gamblers and fish and be left with the good players.

Yeh i agree the above table would make for a good game.  However I do think that internet poker is vastly under-rated by most of the players that play predominantly in a live environment ,especially the old players. For example I made a standard 3 times big blind raise the other week and got told it was an "internet raise", sure maybe I should go 10*BB with my KK.  I'm sure if you ask most pro's they will agree that the internet players that are coming through are top top class and very difficult to play against.

I'm sorry but given the choice between an easy tournament with a big smattering of fish and a few good players and a tournament with lots of good solid players and only a few fish - i know which i'd be picking........

Its always each to their own - with you playing the game that you feel most comfortable with, be it live or online. I much prefer and enjoy to play live tourneys but its a lot lot easier to make a decent profit playing online especially as there are a lot less overheads to eat into your profit margin.

A good poker player will soon learn to adapt to his/her surroundings - where ever they are playing.

If you've got fish, overbet your big pairs, especially AA and KK, you'll still get a couple of callers with rags.

He did after the flop - was just unfortunate that his opponent paired up both his rags.

That's poker for you...............

I would say that there are some good players coming from the internet background, however that is a small number, possibly only 5 - 8% of all internet players are in the long term profitable.

My point is this, Online you have more people Gambling with raggy hands like  Tc 6c only because they are suited or  Ahrt 2c because its an ace where as it causes your big hands although ahead to begin with you are going in for a crap shoot.

I have and can play a loose game also, however in the live environment its a different game as Laz may have caught a tell to know he was beat, again online you give up so much because you have no way of gathering physical information/ tells on an opponent.

Like I said before this is only my opinion, Its not for everyone, I can never sustain a winning record online as my game rely's on physical tells too much and i dont get enough time to work through the info at hand, where as in a live game ( when i am not cold decked ) i have a great record in particular in a cash game.

everyone has their opinions on this, I am just sharing mine mate.

I don't understand why people complain because their opponents play badly. Would you rather be up against Phil Ivey?

If you're losing money regularly then it is not because everybody else is stupid.

LOL, If I was at that table, there'd be buy-ins a plenty.

Pissing contests going on all over the shop.

 I aggree that a good poker player will adapt to their surrounding's Matt, i however foud that I have better results when playing against Top notch tough players, when it comes to me at a table full of gambling fish, I cant seem to get my game on. This is something I am working on however its probably because i have been playing about 8 months and most of that has been in Live cash games.

Back to laz's point he was unlucky that the bloke paired both of his rags, however its is a feeling that I know all too often as well particularly online.

I respect your opinion on this I just have a different one.

Which surely as a good poker player is what you want?!?!? lots of players with less than average skill playing mediocre hands because they dont know any different...

How can constantly going in with the best hand be a crap shoot??? Law of averages says that the best hand will stand up more and therefore you will win more than you lose....

I know its just your opinion, thats why in an earlier post i said "its each to his own - all you can do is play the game that you feel most comfortable with" as more often than not you will make most of your profit at the game you feel most at ease with

I only lose money online, not live, Its just a game I cant adjust to, I believe that chubbs has the same challange.

I honestly can't see how any good player can lose money online.

I have always said that i prefer to play against better players because when playing at a table with 9 newbies you will struggle - How can i figure out how they are playing when they have no idea themselves.

However i'd still much rather play against players who are slightly less than average than ten of the worlds best - granted you can only take your game to the top level when you can play against and beat the best but i dont need to when there is plenty of money on offer at the lower levels

You need to look at your game first, you cannot blame the fish. What do you do differently when playing on-line? It is the same game after all.

A simple game is the best way to get the money against poor players, on-line or live. If you're over complicating things in these games then you are playing badly yourself.

Sorry, I meant preflop.

Heads up yes, you want to be in against the mugs with the rags, As laz was in his post, I often find that you are in a pot with anything from 2 other people to 4 other people, I think this may be reflective of the limits I am playing at online BTW,  

I just happen to empathise with Laz as I  feel that the outdraws and the bankroll busting defeats happen more online as there are more fish per ratio to decent players, and unless you know how to play against them 2, 3, 4 handed it can be pretty tough on the old moral and the bankroll that you have just spent 4 days grinding up to a decent amount.

Actually I was trying to keep it simple - it was only the fourth hand or so of a STT.... so I though a raise to 4 X BB was reasonable...

I can understand the concept that we shoule encourage crap players. because in the long run the statistics will even themselves out, and the good will triumph....but my problem is that I dont play often enough to even out the variance - I dont really play for the money, I play for the enjoyment and leisure. I just get hacked off when fishy plays spoil my enjoyment.

Maybe I should go back to ladbrokes - Generally I found the games there much more "enjoyable" and less frivilous...

I dont blame the fish, far from it, I know that I just dont know how to play against a few of them at the same time.

Like I said before my live game is better as I have an uncanny knack for picking up physical tells, This puts me at an automatic disadvantage online as I cant see my opponents.

I take onboard that I must improve and diversify my game in order to incorporate beating these less than premium players. I just know that if I play live i dont have this problem and find it much easier to beat these people in a live format.

Laz, I wasn't suggesting that you misplayed that particular hand. I was trying to address Newmaneyes' problem with beating on-line games.

neither was i - i was just trying to make the point that it isnt just online where things like that would happen and at the end of the day if i'm getting my QQ called by 10-6 every time then i'm going to win more than i lose which hopefully will mean plenty of MTT cashes.

I once said on another post - "AA loses to 7-2 o/s when all in preflop 12% of the time, it looks bad - it feels f**king awful but i'll take my chances with it every time. It just a matter of how you cope with the 12 times out of 100 when you lose"

Personally i would say the raise is too small, it is a tiny fraction of your stack. It invites any pocket pair in to make a set and stack you on a low flop.

T6c isn't the kind of hand i would like to be calling raises as you will miss far too often  but suited connectors and low pairs will frequently call these raises and you will often go bust/ or win a small pot.

To call this guy a fish is wrong in my view, other than the min raise on the flop which i rarely like, and gives his hand away somewhat, screaming out set to me.

Remember he got the majority of his chips in ahead!

I would raise more preflop. A raise to 80 is not a big raise and out of position it is very dangeorus.
If he had called with 66 or 44 would he still be a fish? You still go broke or win a very small pot.

When the  blinds are very low in proportion to the stacks, i prefer to look at raises in terms of % of stacks instead of BBs. If the players are bad they will call off a high % of their stack and you won't give them implied odds to stack you.

The reality is in deep stack poker 50bb+ the implied odds are massive if you hit your hand big even with rags. That is why big pairs have to be played with some caution in this situation. Its a harsh lesson but you have to know when to fold big pairs, yet its very tricky is your fishy opponent here going to fold when he hits just the 10 or has a flush draw. IMO probably not and that is why his call preflop is a losing one.

As for the live vs internet arguement stick with what you enjoy. I must admit to being a more successful online player i think due to my discipline and a wider choice of game, tho i love playing live. As i often say i play live for the social interaction and online to make money (tho i do enjoy it to a certain degree).