blonde poker forum

http://uk.pokernews.com/news/2015/11/online-poker-players-organising-strike-against-pokerstars-19937.htm

regular grinders, stars players

are you taking part in the strike?

why or why not, i am interested...

thanks

Can't help but think the strike will be counter-productive. If enough games are still running that are significantly softer because all the good players are striking, then that's only going to make those still playing think that it's a good thing.

Kinda like when Taxi drivers go on strike to protest Uber, and as a result A) give Uber loads of free publicity and B) force commuters to use Uber

It isn't clear what the purposes of the strike are.  If it is to retain the status quo with SNE and continue to allow software to allow 24 table grinding so that people can make 100k in rakeback then I am very much against it.  If it is to ensure a level playing field with levels of rake that are beatable then I am all for it.  The stars coin thing seems an easy thing to object to as well.

Without any clarity as to the purpose of the strike then I am inclined to just do my normal thing. 

 

Software and the rake increases are 2 completely different things. The strike is based on the SNE removal halfway through a 2 year program and FPP theft 25% reduction on current FPP balances.
Stars did a bit of PR spin/smokescreen by releasing some vague news on removing software at the same time. Which has led to a lot of people binding up the 2 together

I think the majority of regs actually agree with removing software, seat scripting and things like notecaddy edge are not good for the game.

There are over 2k players striking I believe at the moment with further strikes planned in Jan when they expect to get even more players.
When you think about it, this is mainly regs who likely play 5-10 tables that's a lot of empty seats, some games only start because of regs so I think it might have a bigger impact than people think.
There used to be a way of seeing how many seats where in play on stars but I don't know how to do it, but say conservatively that would be 15k seats missing that's surely got to be a reasonable dent. Pokerscout has stars 7 day average cash game seats at about 14.5k though

Think most are also cashing out majority of their balances also which apparently is quite bad for stars (source Joe Tall on twitter).

i only glanced at the thread but saw an abundance of players who weren't going to play anyway.

Seems pretty pointless to me. Unless people abstain long term nothing will change

Patrick wrote about the strike in his latest entry on BITB for those who have not seen it

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=49575.msg2101120;boardseen#new

This may be true, but when rake is hiked and you keep getting backed into a corner you've got to draw a line in the sand somewhere. If its fruitless, we all know that bit sooner and can make contingency plans. If nothing is done the result is inevitable anyway. At this point there is no harm in trying something that might leverage some sort of communication never mind negotiation.

Make no mistake Mtt'ers your games will be significantly affected with the influx of cash and sng regs turning to Mtt's next yr.

imo the strike should be nothing to do with high volume player benefits reducing. it's entirely about the transition from Isais to Amaya. Amaya introducing these changes at the last minute affecting people who they've advertised a product to as late as possible. With such an aggressively deceitful and insulting approach.

Reducing the VPP value out of the blue is a complete money grab because of the >$100 million dollar 'liability' they have there. That's just stealing.


I doubt any winning player will argue the SNE is good for the game, nor that SE and the current VIP rewards are the best thing for the poker economy. But advertising it as this pathetic 'fighting for the 98%' change when only chromestar sees an increase, and that increase is absolutely negligible, whilst at the same time having rake that is so high that many game formats are truly unbeatable is absolutely disgusting. Spin and Gos with million dollar jackpots, 3 person hypers with slot machine start ups really???? that's progress towards a sustainable or healthy economy (the stated reasons to remove the higher vip levels)?!?!?!?

Since taking over Amaya has managed to absolutely destroy the credibility of what Isai created, the support has taken a huge nosedive (not hard because of just how high the bar was set) but still shocking the efficiency with which this reduction in service levels has been achieved.

In all my years of playing on Stars, the only times the software has even managed to have any kind of real glitches, has been when the whole worldwide internet has had problems due to worldwide routing issues or when they run some insane promotion which meant a tournament had the field size of 4x the average number of players on the site (even then it just lagged rather then every single player losing connection for upwards of 15-20 minutes, the concept of it dieing every hour on the half hour because of inept backend technical work is mindboggling, they must have worked so hard to destroy all the work done previously). I cannot even recall a time when the whole site itself went down, the few times there were problems they were so quick to both be in contact with players and be totally open about if the problem had been caused by them.

Stars since Amaya has taken over CONSTANTLY crashes and lags like you are playing on some joke site like 888. These apparently are worldwide internet routing problems (they copy pasted the site wide messages stars had pushed once or twice, and just spam them now well after the problems have been happening because the poor lad left in the support department has to handle it on his own). Previously stars would auto reimburse you for problems you had, now they have moved to the classic douschebag site model of asking for you to provide countless details in a report for them to verify then tell you the problem wasn't at their end, or for them to give you 3fpps which will soon be reduced in value anyway.  People need to understand just how hard they must have worked to degrade the software stability so quickly to the level they have, combine that with the support department service reductions and they have some fucking sicko management guy whose sole purpose is to destroy the product to save money with no concern for the effects. Isn't it lucky that there is ABSOLUTELY NO site that can compete with them and take the bulk of their traffic by offering a product even 1/10th as good as that which they have degraded Isais' brain child to. Does anyone really believe they still have the funds and will to seek out cheating or even attempt to protect the integrity of the games?!?


The whole "omg removing software is so great you selfish regs" is a pathetic political bit of scheming, they aren't even removing the bulk of the software, they are removing the really invasive and organic software that updates mid hand and provides new levels of on the fly analysis/information filtering. That is clearly good, but it's being used again as a disgusting Alistair Campbell style spin and so many people who should be able to see through it are falling for it.


Given how self centred the whole concept of the industry is to get any number of regs to strike together shows just how hard they are intentionally fucking the player in a push for short term profits from this vulture prick Baazov to piss them off that much.

The problems are - the stealing from players via fpps, the mis-advertising of long term vip benefits which they remove at the last minute, the disgusting patronising rude and insulting way they communicated these problems with press releases full of pure lies and the absolutely awful way in which they have destroyed the core values of the product (network stability, player support and site integrity).

Who truly thinks player balances will even still be kept separate or another FTP cant happen with this absolute turd in charge?!?

Imo the strike is good, in the sense it shows that there are alot of players really actually fucked off, even enough to pass up on better games for 3 days, however removal of players balances would be such a better way to show them that they are out of line.  There will still be a huge amount of players who have absolutely no idea of who Dani Stern/2+2 is or that this is happening and these players ARE ALSO losing out because of the changes.

The 2% are going to be fine because they are winning players, they will adapt, the 98% who are being touted as those benefiting are also being fucked whilst being told they are lucky for that...guess who wins.... Amaya and Baazov...... aka the house wins.

Even if it is fair to say that we were spoilt by Isai, the way in which Amaya is treating the whole player base is absolutely scandalous.

http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/18857/how-online-poker-resembles-gym-industry/

Strikes have worked before under amaya.

They increased the rake in husngs and the regs simply moved all their battling ( regs have to play regs in hypers, there is a tremendous amount of battling ) off stars and a couple of sites lowered their husng rake to plug the gap and take all that lucrative high stakes low edge rake churn.

Stars first introduced huge rake back offers triggered on your 50th game v a player in a month, and then relented and put the rake back to its previous low level.

Husng regs are organised though.

They are in divisions and have rules and can also influence non members by refusing entry for 6 months to would be members who took.lobbies during the strike..

As most people already know, stars have made some changes that aren't good for poker. Obviously they hurt pros a lot.

As a result, people are striking by not playing on stars for 3 days from today until the 3rd december.

I'm not a huge stars player anyway so it's easy for me to sit out and I will do.

I have read a few posts on facebook from players I respect like Trigg and Sam Razavi who seem to not be partaking and was a little surprised by that but very keen to hear people's opinions on it.

Are you taking part? If yes/no, why?

Nice to see they're protesting and coming back in time for the Sunday grind.

Stars must be quaking!

Or is there a good reason for this timing?

I might play for a couple of day less pros means +EV for us RECs plus more chance of an overlay

I think asking people to boycott when it is probably most effective, i.e. the super Tuesday might overlay tonight, lots of tournaments might not run. It wouldn't be effective to ask people to do it on Sunday as stars doesn't need as much regs liquidity then and it would be much harder to organise the same level of boycotts on a Sunday. It's not like cash players can protest on their own, no one would notice on a Sunday anyway.

Negreanu went on Joe Ingrams podcast last night and I've heard apart from his Chemical Ali joke it was pretty dull and he didn't really say anything. He did concede stars were wrong to change sne as its a two year program but it's a bit late for that lol.

Timing is because the changes have just been announced properly and it would be hard to organise prior to having the information. I'm not sure what you expected Tal, poker players (pros) have to join together to be heard, it's been less than 30 days and less time than it took Negreanu to write a blog.

Been told that lobbies at 100s + in husngs are empty.

Heard a bad 30s reg open sitting the 1k lobbies and non of the high stakes regs sat him. He would be snap sat at 60s if he tried to open sit. So for him to hold a lobby at 1k is incredible.

All groups at 60s + are largely inactive. So much reg battling that would have been on going is off. Recreationals for the first time are going to be forced to start a game rather than being able to join one.

Be interesting to see if everyone holds their nerve if some regs take advantage of the unprotected lobbies

Fancy a 3 day comeback by Camel like the good old days destroying the recs in the $1k heads up stts. 

All turbo lobbies from 60 right up to 5k are empty too.

So he can play as high as he likes lol

anyone wants to bet if stars go back on the SNE changes i'll book the action

Hope the 2.20 8 game MTT at 7.40pm still gets going

1k and 500 hypers running

its going to get interesting there:

the players open sitting are a group of players living together in bali.

they have been battling the 1k regs to be allowed to open sit the 1ks for around a year now.

the guy holding the 1k lobby now is 1rake1. you can read about the politics here:

http://www.husng.com/content/interview-1rake1-part-1

http://www.husng.com/content/interview-1rake1-part-2

its a pretty political act for them to come in an take lobbies whilst the rest of the regs are sitting it out.

the higher divisions are policing the strike pretty hard, there have been a few regs from lower divisons taking shots in the lobby. they are probably going to have to get used to playing high stakes regs in their grind for a while from now on.


the other guy holding lobbies is adonis112 ie olivier busquets

he's never been an offical member of a division as he doesnt multi-table. again interesting to see a high profile highstakes reg taking lobbies - although he does take lobbies uncontested in his regular grind.

This is a great article.  Being a gym rat back in that era i can totally relate to the writer and how the industry has changed for the better for the vast majority of consumers.  Obviously there are some 'losers' but these are in the big minority.  As a result gyms now make a lot more revenue for their shareholders.  Pretty sure this is the angle stars are looking at it from.

So why haven't all these actual recreational friendly poker rooms experienced big growth, or any growth?

The 2nd biggest site is 888 and I think that's due to pros providing liquidity over anything else.

Do you play on 888? They offer lots of bonuses every day for people just logging in, tickets, free sports bets etc. And also frequently offers lots of reload bonuses which i think is a great attracter of recs and what all sites should do if they truly want to attract/keep the worst players - reload bonuses.

Yeah, last week I had 78 tournament tickets with approximately 0.01 in value. Never got a ticket I've used or a sports bet. The depositor bonuses are good/true, doesn't every site do that though? My dad went back to stars after being offered what he felt was an insulting redposit bonus.

Thurs Thrill looks like it might have a decent overlay. Might tempt a few striking back.

Also will be interesting to see what type of weekend stars has. Might be huge with all these strikers eager to get back on

if everyone hadnt told stars they were striking, then stars almost certainly wouldn't have noticed.

Which effectively makes it a pretty meaningless strike.

I do get it though, it's a situation that hugely affects a group of people and that group have no control over it, it's a frustrating thing but maybe a feeling of togetherness in the strike will boost morale and at least make people feel as if they are in some control of this, even if the reality of it is they aren't.

Stars have made these changes because they don't want the business of the players who are striking otherwise they wouldn't be making the changes in the first place!  Going on strike is one of the funniest things ever as you are doing exactly what they want in advance of the changes.

The only way a strike will work is if they lose chunks on guarantees one Sunday for instance. Also note this would be ineffective at dusk if you had a rake/incentives issue there lol

Think the point of the strike was more symbolic then to hurt stars bottom line. It's just impossible to sustain any type of long term resistance to the stars machine

Meh, I'd like to think that if they keep taking the piss some other site will step up and try to be a proper competitor.

Been saying that for years. Just isn't going to happen

It can't happen for the same reason as betfair has never had a serious competitor for 10+ years.  These industries are all about scale and the 'first in' advantage.  It is huge to the point where it is the only thing that matters.  Both businesses have probably been terribly run but because they were in first and crushed in the early days it is GSM (game set and match) for any realistic competitor.

Poker players are arriving in the same world as most pro sports bettors did 5 years ago.  Welcome to reality.  Think of the positives.  You have had 5 years more milking the system before it run dry than we did.

They have the player base, the guarantees and most importantly the best software by a mile. Suck it up or move on

A lot of decent pros already have.  Most guys i know who still play online poker for a living never play on stars for these reasons.  They are always going to exploit their 'monopoly' position.  Most of the online grinders i read about moaning just don't udnerstand how business works.  I totally agree with them in the fact they have 'stolen' money by changing the 2 year deal on SNE and the points system to starscoins.  That is just theft.  I have no issue with you barking on that.  A strike will not change a thing though on that.  That is totally out of order.  The only reason they are trying it on it because they have such a big global monopoly power brand wise and/or the new owners have paid way over the odds for a product and need a return on it.

As for the rest of the changes they are totally within their right to do whatever they want.  If it doesn't suit a load of kids in their bedrooms tough shit.  Suck it up and get a real job if you can't beat the rake.  PS (and any other gambling site) doesn't owe anyone a living just to maximize the value of their brand to their shareholders.    They have invested 10 years of profits building this 'first in' edge they have to have total global domination.  Now they cash in from the casuals.  If you can't beat it then move on.  Get a job.  Don't waste your time striking.  

99% of stars global customers couldn't care less about ur concerns.  They pay a price to play poker because it is their hobby.  They expect to lose like most gamblers.  They don't really care either.  That is why stars are doing it.  The loud tiny minority don't pay the bills.  The silent huge casual majority do.  That is the reality.

In a perfect world another company would step in and offer what stars are.  The reason they don't is two fold.  One - they can't offer the scale to make the product pay.  Secondly, customers like u would add nothing to their business.

I think they probably need to start with an aim to the strike that most people can get behind, and more importantly that stars could emphasise with.   If they were striking for even rakeback for all and/or lower registration fees then I would be all for it, and if they were selling that message to stars then I think they'd get a more sympathetic ear from stars.  But most posts seemed to be about loss of supernova and supernova elite.  I have felt for years that Supernova like rewards, rake races and the like are detrimental to the long run health of the game.  It is hard to feel much sympathy for a movement whose main aim seemed to be to maintain a 300% difference in rakeback between us and them.  Right on brothers.   

I would find it much easier to object when registration fees were increased to levels beyond where the game could be profitable.  I'd also happily object to the shabby way they introduced stars coin for already earned benefits and the loss of rakeback on higher stakes tables*.

* though I am not averse to getting rid on the very high stakes tables.  It must be a money laundering nightmare for stars with a bunch of big punters shipping large sums on and off the site to play 50 hands of 50/100 that probably don't even earn the site enough to cover the transaction costs of moving the large sums on and off site. 

 

Striking is just too tough to organise. A boycott of their live events would be easier. How many of those players moaning are going Prague? And what % of player base who play live also play online?

the other thing that makes me laugh is when these online bedroom nerds say 'we loved the previous owners but hate the new ones'.  The previous owners have selfishly cashed out and sold the firm at a premium (they don't care less about you) now the new owners who have paid the premium to the legend set  up guys who are on a beach enjoying your cash have to get a return on their investment to justify the fee they paid to the 'great set up owners' you laud.  Comical.  If they loved you and the concept as players they would never have sold out.  They sold out because its business. 

Might just go around as many places as possible and shout "stars is rigged but party isn't" :p

striking is never really going to work because there is no "union" collectively it's in everyones best interests for the strike to continue, individually it's not and actually even worse so it's way within everyone's personal interests to not strike whilst everyone else is striking.

It's a move that stars wouldn't have taken lightly and you would assume that they would have predicted player backlash on this scale - IDK if they thought people would go to the extremes of striking - so they must have prepared for this and factored it into the decision, which means they likely have a strategy lined up for how to deal with player unrest and seem very unlikely to deviate from what they've decided now.

Might be wrong.

Players loved the previous owners because they ran the site in the right way, making it the market leader and best site to play on by an absolute mile. Players don't expect the owners to have any affinity towards them. They were running a business, and running it the way they did means they can sell it to Amaya for whatever ridiculous amount they did. They hate the new owners because aside from flat out stealing from pros, they are also stealing from recs (and only posting about it on 2+2, where recs would never find out) so the business people (who know nothing about poker or the poker market/economy) can knock 25% of the companies liabilities off the books to improve their figures, all the while trying to mask it behind removing HUD's and other software. Which all the dribbling, old spastics frequenting this forum have fallen for. Nothing to do with the long term longevity of the economy as a whole.

No idea who you are but is there really any need for this?  Pretty reasonable debate going on here and there seems little need to lower the tone in this way is there?

They run the site the right way in order to get the maximum price for it when they decided to cash in and exit.  Like most start up businesses with a 'first in' strategy to create a virtual monopoly do.  If they cared so much when they sold the product they would have took less money when selling and put a clause into the sale contract saying all their great ideas for the poker pros in the world had to be kept in place forever even though the product doesn't need the pros anymore like it did when they were still creating the monopoly position they now have.

I haven't fallen for anything either as i have never had a stars account so i see this totally impartially unlike the vast majority of people on here who have vested interests.  I agree they have been under handed regarding the vpp's and the 2 year period for SNE.  Legally they must be 100% covered for doing it otherwise they wouldn't do it.  They want rid of these top 500 players and have all the power.  That is why the strike is pointless.

[/quote]No idea who you are but is there really any need for this?  Pretty reasonable debate going on here[/quote]

Very reasonable choice of words to attach to all online poker players.

No idea who you are but is there really any need for this? Pretty reasonable debate going on here[/quote]

Very reasonable choice of words to attach to all online poker players.
[/quote]

I would happily wager my net worth i have played twice as much online poker than you have without even knowing who you are and i haven't played online for years.  I was a fellow nerd in my bedroom for years.  I have done the volume for years that would have got SNE levels so i know how much of a nerd you have to be for this to really be affecting you financially.  Believe me you will have a much more balanced life when you don't play poker for 15 hours a day.  I don't think my choice of words was anywhere near as offensive as yours were.

Yeh my choice of words was out of line, apologies.

http://calvinayre.com/2015/12/02/poker/daniel-negreanu-pokerstars-and-the-death-of-the-online-pro/?utm_source=hootsuite

I wonder just how much stars have noticed the sit outs tbh. Now, I haven't played stars for quite a while but obv still get the emails from them. Don't they have an xmas promo running atm? The type of thing that attracts all the recs to deposit and play more. Just what stars are aiming for

The most annoying part for me is that I think its terrible business for both me and Stars. I'm not sure how many times I can write this but I will try again. If you remove my rakeback, you are increasing the rake, if you increase the rake, you force me to look for better games, which means I will play less poker and win at a higher win rate off the recreational player. Bear in mind, the rakeback the SNEs guys get is money that Stars have already collected. Job done, they are just giving some of it back. Without this, they have to collect the money somehow, and presuming your most economically aware customers aren't going to change their habits is obviously a mistake. A SNE hyper guy will go from paying Stars 200k and getting 110k back for his income, to playing mtts and winning at a 20% roi post rake, whilst Stars collect somewhere between 7-10%. It is so so so stupid. They would do much better by encouraging poker players to play as much poker as possible instead of forcing them to win off recreational players instead of rakeback. I have no idea how they cannot see this. I also have no idea why people think they are a smart company. They leveraged capital to buy a business and then decide they need to change the whole business model to get things to work. If I tried to buy Rolls Royce and turn it into Ford would people on this forum tell me it was a good idea simply because I managed to convince someone to invest the capital to allow me to do so? They can't even handle the PR for major changes like this, I see absolutely no reason for me to think this is the best route for Amaya to take. I understand they think it is, and honestly I think I'd get over it if that was the case. I think what they are doing is burning the ship down and I'm a passenger.

Arb, they sold because they couldn't get it into America. They also wanted to stop working. I think you would think it was a lot more ridiculous if I demanded they continued working, instead of hating on the new owners. Do I wish they had sold to someone who cared about poker or had the vaguest idea of what to do with the business? Absolutely, but I'm not going to expect them to dedicate their lives to poker.

I also don't know why you expect people to not be angry. That is one of the most absurd things to me. You seem surprised that online pros are pissed off. I play virtually every site you could have access to and a few more you don't. This doesn't mean I'm going to applaud someone for making "excellent business decisions".
I'm not sure Stars will exist in five years tbh.

Limit tables and remove huds to help the fish and appease them would lead to making pros work harder and fish will lose quicker. Stars take 20 bb/100 at SSPLO and then wonder why the fish lose so quickly...

Listening to Dnegs on the Joey podcast its actually pretty clear they don't understand poker (as in the new execs). Which is really very very worrying they seem to be treating Poker as any other gaming product and it really is way more complex and different to the majority of casino/sports betting.

From what he was saying a bunch of stuff they thought would do X will actually do the complete opposite Y.

I think the example he gave was that they thought reducing rakeback would make SNE/SN mass grinders player differently in regards to actual style. Suddenly they thought these guys would be playing 30/10 and splashing around for some reason.

Obviously it will have next to no effect on how they play. In fact it might even make them play tighter in some spots in theory if effective rake is higher less hands are profitable to see flops with.

Similarly they seem to think removing VPPs for example at 5/10 cash will protect the fish from being hunted. when actually the opposite is very likely true. Those games will only run with a big fish in the game and he will be hunted to extinction very very quickly. Also the big fish who likes to play high now doesn't get a bit of a kickback when he does play the games.

Much better would be if they gave the fish a much higher % of RB than the regs imo but it seems they are not going down this route

By the way your analogy with ford/rolls royce reminds me of when General motors bought Saab and totally balled it up trying to make it run like GM did. Feels like Amaya is trying to shoehorn on their general business model onto Poker.

As a general aside it always baffles me how companies are allowed to raise tons of capital to buy a business and then load that same business with mountains of debt. I recall Man UTD had the same thing when they were bought out also quite a few years back now.

This quote from Amaya's CEO pretty much sums this up.

The players will not last longer and their experience will not be enhanced if you take away the middle section of the eco system. This will leave the absolute elite players who can beat any game, the elite bumhunters who will be on every site and don't take rb into consideration as they don't put enough volume in on Stars alone, and the recs. Having 5 elite players on 1 table instead of 2 elite, 2 avg regs, 1 bumhunter and 1 rec, the recs are going to get smashed. Who is going to want to redeposit if they never win a hand?

^^^^

I think they also don't seem to realise that many forms of poker they spread are basically unbeatable since the rake is so high. Games like small stakes PLO and limit games for example. The only way there are winning players in those games is due to RB, and now the recs are getting punished much much quicker for reasons you said amongst others/

Now maybe that's what they want (who knows) but a big big part of the appeal of poker versus other gambling is that you can win at it imo and I think the poker punter is way different to the casino or betting punter who knows they are -ev but do it anyway for fun

How the whole system was set up was really successful for a long time and I certainly think it needs to be overhauled. Gutting the VIP system on some vague promise of bringing in new players who in turn will be fleeced really quickly by the site because they are pushing rake and go's can't be good.

Like I said I would have massively increased the benefits of lower teirs, especially silver gold and plat rewards because this is the most valuable customer they have. Some who plays enough that it is clearly a hobby, but not so much they are obviously a full time player (that said I know 2 Super novas who work full time).

The key thing you miss out here is how much this SNE withdraws from the system in donating his £90k of rake over a year.  Stars don't want big winners (relative to their rake contribution) in their system anymore so they are changing their pricing structure.  I don't believe all of these players will move down the stakes to make a living.  A lot of SNE/Winning/Pro players will simply stop playing (which is want Stars ultimately want imo) and find alternative forms of income and instead of stars paying them a wage every year this money will churn through their system.  Remember the casino/sportsbook have been added now where they can also keep hold of people's deposits through cross selling other products to casuals.  They just simply don't want big withdrawl winning players on their site taking money out of their system.  Therefore they are committing to price you out.  Stars are saying if you are still good enough to beat the game with the increased charges all the best and we will make enough out of you to justify your wage.  If not then please get your wages elsewhere.

I am talking as someone who is shit at poker and stopped playing in 2011 online when i couldn't make it pay anymore.  I made most of my money from rakeback and playing huge volumes of stts (not on stars but the reward system on bf was similar to SNE) before the firms caught onto the fact that people like me where bad for their ecosystem.   I could have dropped down the stakes and beat 20/40p but it wasn't worth the effort and made more sense to find alternative forms of income.  I am sure this will happen to a lot of current pros.  It is about being ahead of the game.  Once the firms catch on you just have to take your skills elsewhere.

Its something that happens in the business world all the time. So many mergers and takeovers are unprofitable because of both the premium paid and because the incoming management overestimate their ability to manage. This case is even worse than the norm, as we have to presume the old management was successful, and even more so if like Arbboy states, that they were bringing in the changes slowly anyway. And then add to that they had spend to get the capital for the deal and seemed to pay a bigger premium than normal. They paid 11.1x Stars 2013 EBITA which is just outrageous for a shrinking market, even if it is the market leader.

http://www.amaya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Amaya-Oldford-Investor-Presentation-FINAL.pdf

"Brand awareness, players want Stars and Tilt to come back to US" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. I'm sure all those Americans that had their funds seized for years are desperate to get back on Full Tilt.

Amaya's business model is fairly interesting. They do have a history of buying up poker networks and stripping them of value before selling them on to a company that they pay to take on the failing asset. They managed to  sell Ongame to NYX Gaming Group, some newly emerged Swedish firm. To do this they had to lend them the money and give a minimum revenue guarantee.

As the Corporation focuses on its B2C operations, on November 24, 2014, Amaya divested Ongame Network Ltd.
(“Ongame”), its B2B poker and platform provider, to NYX Gaming Group Ltd. (“NYX Gaming Group”).
Concurrently with the transaction, Amaya made a strategic investment in NYX Gaming Group via a subscription of a
$9 million unsecured convertible debenture, which matures two years after the date of issuance and bears interest at
6.00% per annum, payable at maturity. Interest and principal are payable in kind in NYX Gaming Group common
shares at Amaya’s option.
The Corporation derecognized the net assets, resulting in a loss of $ 32,219,000 that was recognized in net loss
from discontinued operations in the consolidated statement of earnings (loss). The Corporation has provided for the
full minimum revenue guarantee of CAD $4.2 million payable within the next 12 months

http://www.nyxgaminggroup.com/for-investors-dashboard/stock-chart-and-quote/


On February 11, 2014, the Corporation announced that pursuant to a Share Purchase Agreement dated November
27, 2013, one of its subsidiaries has completed the previously announced sale to Goldstar Acquisitionco Inc. of all of
the issued and outstanding shares of WagerLogic Malta Holdings Ltd. for $70 million, less a closing working capital
adjustment satisfied through cash consideration of $52.50 million and a vendor take-back in the form of a promissory
note of $10 million, bearing interest at 6.0% per annum payable semi-annually in arrears.


http://www.amaya.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Amaya-2014-Financial-Statements.pdf

So who are Goldstar? Goldstar are a private company that is fairly difficult to find information about. However, I did find a company filing.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1595949/000114036114001105/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml

Keith Laslop is the contact name for Goldstar and the Intertain CFO. Both building are registered within 10 minutes walk of each other in Toronto. You can see the Intertain Annual Report for 2014 here; http://2014ar.intertain.com/about


So somewhere along the line Goldstar became Intertain. Where have we seen Intertain before?

Lets go back to the Amaya 2014 Annual Statement; During the year ended December 31, 2013 the Corporation acquired subscription receipts exchangeable into
1.35 million common shares and 353,000 common share purchase warrants of The Intertain Group Limited (TSX: IT)
for a total cost of $5.4 million and 38,500 convertible debentures (TSX: IT.DB) which have a maturity date of
December 31, 2018 and bear interest at 5.00% per annum for a total cost of $3.85 million. The debentures are
convertible at the Corporation’s option into fully paid common shares of The Intertain Group Limited at any time
prior to the maturity date at a conversion price of CAD$6.00 per common share. Each warrant is exchangeable into
one common share at a price of CAD $5.00. The Corporation exercised all the warrants during the year.


This is an example of the bullshit you read when searching through these company statements.

"The company completed its listing on the TSX in February 2014 and immediately embarked on a series of accretive acquisitions. Intertain is now one of the top 10 online gaming companies globally1, the largest online bingo-led company globally, has the highest percentage of revenue from regulated markets amongst its peer group, and is a major player in M&A activity – after only 12 months of operation.*


*1 BASED ON COMPARABLE ONLINE GAMING COMPANIES WITH A SIMILAR SCOPE AND NATURE OF OPERATIONS."
http://2014ar.intertain.com/letter/overview


This got really messy really fast and I'm not sure it will make sense but I hope it provides some people information about how shady Amaya is.

Arb I think by pricing out the SNE players, they will price out everyone. Imagine if Betfair decided to introduce Premium Charge to everyone who bets more than £100, just because their were a few winners with abnormal profit levels. Its basically Betfaur saying, you guys win too much so we are going to increase everyone's commission, and because you are addicted gamblers, you will remain betting with us.

I agree with that but the vast majority of casual poker players couldn't even tell you what the rake is.  They couldn't care less.  This is the market stars want now given their actions.  Whether it is right or wrong long term who knows.  I think the PC would work well on PS if it was adapted slightly.

Their turnover is bound to fall but their profits might rise as a result of the increased margins. When i worked for a low margin sportsbook in the past we did a similar thing on our baseball product which was highly competitive in the market place.  Betting it to 102%.  We decided to double the margin to 104%.  This caused a lot of complaints from the pros who made a living out of us.  As a result our turnover dropped 10 fold but profits more than doubled.  Bank charges/fees and customer service issues also decreased massively as a result.

I can't argue with much of this post. I think recs are a lot more aware of rake than you would think, even if it simply comes in the form of losing quicker. I'm sure when I used to play live at a casino then if the nearby casino lowered the rake then people would have gone there. I'm almost certain they would have cared. I'm not sure why people think this translates to online, just because some people feel a certain loyalty or affinity to sportsbooks.

My only real question is; why do all the none pros seem so happy about it? If you think Amaya are going to make more money, why are you happy about that? So many recreational posters seem happy pros are getting fucked. I don't understand why. I'm not saying its given you a big grin, but I think thats why POWWWW gets so offended, and its certainly something that has riled me up in the past when other posters have spoken about it. I wouldn't be cheering if Betfair decided to make commission 5% (why don't they if every rec is price insensitive?)

I am indifferent to it either way.  Like i say i have never had a PS account.  I am certainly not grinning for ear to ear about it but equally it was always going to happen and i am just trying to give some balance to the argument of why Pokerstars as a business are doing it. 

Betfair do charge recs 5% commission.  As you trade more and more you pay less and less commission on a sliding scale down to 2%.

I feel for the PS pros because betfair have done the same thing to me just in a different way but the net result is the same.  The PC has killed liquidity in the exchange in a lot of areas and the BF sportsbook has taken away all the new 'casual' money in huge lumps so it is so much harder to make a living.  Identical to the PS situation.  I don't expect people to feel sorry for me.  If i can't make it pay long term then i will have to knock it on the head, like i did online poker in 2011, and find another way of making a living.

I agree actually I think recs do care a bit more than is realised

There are many semi recs playing prob more than pure punters. They realise it's a skill game want to get better and on some level realise the level of rake.

To follow up on why so many seem happy about it (this is not at arry at all who seems to know what's up)

It's 2 fold
1st they think that tons of mass tabling pros will quit and now they can win. Quite incorrectly of course they will lose quicker. They also seem to think without huds they can also beat regs. Which again is obviously not true at all.
2 bitterness/jealousy they are not good enough to win at poker. That doesn't feel good and if they can't win then screw the pros

Pro's have not helped this at all by the way, generally looking down on weaker players and also the prevalence of scripts etc really hurts them.

I said this on 2+2 when the first outpouring of hate came out against regs and stand by it

Beezov is in this for short term profit and to leverage the instant reach to a massive player base to try and push more -ev gambling. poker will suffer from collateral damage.

the PokerStars boycott that took place from December 1-3 by over 2,500 players. Did it make an impact? http://ow.ly/Vxmre

"In that spirit of transparency, we can tell you that we did see effects from the recent boycott that give us even greater confidence that our strategy is on the right track to improve the health of the ecosystem. During the three-day boycott we recorded the healthiest consecutive three-day ecosystem results of the year with steady net gaming revenue, even though our net-depositing players lost at a much lower rate than they have all year."

http://www.pokerlistings.com/pokerstars-to-launch-free-quarterly-1m-tournaments-in-2016-54334

^^^^

Morning James.

What has been the reaction to that over on 2+2?

We are cancelling the four $1m freerolls scheduled for SN players in 2016.

In totally unrelated news we are proud to announce FOUR $1M FREEROLLS FOR 2016

Finally a chap that has spoken some sense. I didn't sit out, it was never going to work and I stood strong by that in my own blog post.

https://medium.com/@skolsuper/pokerstars-strike-waste-of-time-2d34b67acc9c#.amdkt0tx3

Pokerstars might get tougher with their reduced rewards to all players, but, if you can't take the heat then get the hell out of the kitchen.

Why are you so happy your mates are getting screwed? Do you prefer Amaya making money to me or pads? You are potentially watching a company ruin your career and are doing nothing about it. Soon there won't be a kitchen to get out of if it carries on like this. These changes are bad for all players, not just regs. Can people stop being blindsided by what stars tell them. Next year there will be four disastrous Sunday's when the new one mil freerolls are on.

If you like poker and you like the idea of being able to be a poker professional, you should probably be finding a way to do something about it. That is what the strike was, an attempt at doing something, instead of sitting back apathetically. I understand you think the strike would be ineffective but I do t understand why you seem for the changes. Amaya are a very shady company. You should be worried. I don't understand why you would actively belittle the protests, is it to prove yourself right? I said many times, at least in private, I don't think it will work, but just wanted to try and control my own destiny instead of being forced out by others.





I don't think Skol got my point, but I think I slightly missed his too. If 888/ipoker and the current sites started the open source software idea it could work. My worry would be is someone taking it, depending on how open the open source is, and using it for nefarious purposes. I also think the barriers to entry are so great both financially and from a legislative perspective that it prevents new comers.

Ipoker have had forever to develop there software and its still not been done. Party are a plc that just brought out new software that still has infinite problems.

I brought up bitcoin as a point that stars could lower their costs elsewhere instead of paying so much to skrill. I copied it over from 2+2 as its too messy to post there.

Pretty much what i have said from the start.  Keys always really got the 'business' side of poker and how the ecosystem really does work.  He always correctly referred to pro poker players as a 'supplier' to a poker site and not a customer years ago.  His blog is spot on on all points.

This is not just aimed personally at you, as I've seen this trotted out in numerous spots over the last few weeks.

The reason players are protesting is for themselves. All of the players protesting are professionals, or very regular regs - or their mates.
The only players who will be significantly affected, in a negative sense, by the changes are the professionals, or the very regular regs.

I have no problem with the protest (apart from the fact it's most likely a useless waste of energy), and there is clear justification to be disgruntled.
I have a problem with the way the changes are being made into something they are not.

I don't think many people are railing against the players who feel short changed / cheated. I do think they are getting a little irritated by the whingy, whiny demeanor of those players, and some of the laughable stuff that they are spouting.

Why are you so happy your mates are getting screwed? I'm not at all, I've not even thought about it in that way. If people aren't happy with something they can choose not to do it. If Audi bring out a car that keeps tipping over, people aren't going to petition about it.

Do you prefer Amaya making money to me or pads? Stupid question.

You are potentially watching a company ruin your career and are doing nothing about it. Soon there won't be a kitchen to get out of if it carries on like this. These changes are bad for all players, not just regs. Poker isn't going anywhere. If Pokerstars end up ruining their poker side of things, inevitably people will leave and the smaller sites will begin to thrive. It will be a long process, just like pokerstars was a long process of becoming so big. Equally, if Pokerstars begin to ruin it for the small stakes guys and the recs, so be it. Currently people are pissed off because they are getting pieces of their cake taken away from them. Like I said before- boo-hoo. If Pokerstars were to disappear today, my bottom line would definitely be affected, but I've not been a professional poker player for over 10 years now to then not adapt and find ways to continue in my own little world. I can make lots of money live, possibly as much as I do on stars or more. I can play only on European sites, it would probably be less enjoyable since I can't win as much but I could still do well.

Can people stop being blindsided by what stars tell them

Bit lost here? I am not delusional by any means, I can see what Amaya are doing is very bad for the upper tier of poker players. If they get more people playing on their site and putting more money into their business, then they are doing what is best for them. I am not a fly on the wall in their meetings and I have no idea exactly what their agendas are so I can't comment. I've not run a business like Pokerstars before so it would be purely guess work.

Pokerstars belongs to Amaya and if they want to fuck it up, that is completely up to them.

It's not really like that though Dan. The top tier have money saved, can invest into different ventures, can afford not to work and contemplate what's next. Stars are going after all tiers. The low and mid tiers will be fucked too, the difference being they depend on poker for a living and without it will struggle to pay bills.

Sure it's a level Pads.  I will bite though.  Get a job maybe like the vast majority of society?  A lot of low/mid tier footballers would love to make a living from playing football.  Sadly they are not in the elite so they have to get a job to pay their bills.  The reality is top level pros feed off these guys who can't make it pay at the elite level but keeping playing the super tues and other elite level mtts/cash games but won't get a job.  So your life is suddenly going to become tougher because their losses which feed up the food chain to you won't be there for much longer.  There are so many people talking through their own wallets on this issue it really is started to get boring.

I could have gone on strike when betfair brought in the premium charge (effectively the same as what stars are doing) but i just cracked on (mainly because like on stars it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to their decision).  The game is very tough.  If i can't make it pay i will just get a job.  I won't be crying because a business with an effective monopoly who choose to maximise their own revenue at my expense to a certain extent makes these decisions.  It's life.  It's called enterprise/business/commerce whatever you want to call it.  Survival of the fittest.

Betfair introduced a premium charge? Someone should've said

And how would you describe your fellow professional punters that applauded Betfair for their premium charges? I will make a living playing poker for as long as I want to. I have absolutely no doubt about my own ability. I'm tired of a company lying to me. I'm tired of other people telling me it is good for me. I'm tired of other pros being apathetic and not caring when perhaps they could do something about it. There won't be a poker food chain for too much longer and that seems to please people and I don't really understand why. This is a poker forum that is largely indifferent to a company fucking over 90% of the poker playing community. If I owned a taxi and Uber came to town, I would complain. It is perfectly within their right to do so, and it is perfectly within my right to complain. It really blows my mind that people think Amaya can make such shady changes but posting on a forum about it is wrong, which is exactly what Dan has repeatedly implied. I'm also puzzled by people complaining about the reg protests. I mean, just don't read the thread if you don't want to read this sort of thing lol.

Jakally, you are absolutely wrong with the statement that only regulars are affected by these changes. Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected. That is probably 85%+ of hands played at these stakes...

I play as much poker as possible and would never seat script or sit out whilst waiting for the fish to rebuy. These are obvious negatives to poker and I have never done this. This is a really bad move for poker and I'm simply not going to sit silently on the sidelines and watch it happen. I'm sorry if you think thats the route I should take, feel free to not read my posts, I'm sure you won't be the only one.

Dan your comments about it only affecting the upper tier poker players lead me to believe you have no idea about the effects these changes will have on YOUR games. I very much doubt a regular who makes 250k a year playing cash games will decide to get a job when he can make 150k playing mtts. It says a lot that your not already playing on these euro sites. I will probably stop posting on the subject as I'm largely talking to myself, or trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced about these changes, it has felt about as effective as the Stars strike.

I think it's your attitude to the changes. If you're an elite player like arb states the roll with it, adjust and beat these new MTTers (which I think is being overstated anyway)

Everyone appreciates this isn't good for you.  Everyone knows you are talking through your wallet (just like i could if i moaned about the PC killing liquidity on betfair) but i choose not to in public and not strike when it was introduced.  I just decided to adjust what i did or get a job.  

If you are tired of a company lying to you as a customer (which all these pros say they are) then move on and give your 'business' to another company which doesn't lie to you.  Two problems here.   Firstly you are not a customer of stars you are a supplier and by the nature of being a supplier to a monopoly business you have very little, if any, power in any discussions you have with them.  Rather similar to the dairy farmers have with Tesco.  They haven't spent zillions building up this monopoly to not cash in at some stage.  This is the cash cow cash in period for the investors.

You can post all you like about the changes.  The bottom line is you are 100/1 to reverse any of them to any meaningful level.  Therefore you might as well just crack on quietly.

I get your pain.  I have been there, done it, been through it myself.   Read all the similar moans and groans on the bf forum 5 years ago.  Nothng changed because of it and nothing will change here because of it.   If anything the more you moan the more stars will realise they are right doing what they are doing for the good of their business.

What!
You've never played the arbboy betfair exchange drinking game? Guaranteed mortal a few posts in! (just joshing arbboy nothing personal!)

Why would I move my business if it is bad for them? I intend to bumhunt harder and win more money next year. They have added fuel to my fire.

That's fine.  Good luck.  You have to turn your business into a margin focused one over a volume one.  You might end up winning more money doing this in absolute terms and have less swings (as your edge will be bigger) and do less work as well.  Pokerstars will get more rake per hand you play.  Win win spot.

I doubt everyone will be as smart as you and make the adjustments.

It's a horrible spot with which i empathize, stars have made it outwardly clear they do not care in the slightest for the best interests of professional poker players - rightly or wrongly they believe that this base of customers will continue to use their product regardless of how they treat them, so they are going to squeeze you dry. It is unfortunately pretty much the only option that a public company answering to a board of non-poker, corporate, commercially driven shareholders would have here.

Now they have decided they don't care about you at all, but you require this business to make a living...what can you do... sitting home futile saying "oh well nothing I can do" seems weak, the strike was well intentioned but genuinely wasn't even thinking about it was so ineffective aside form making players feel like they were controlling their destiny a bit more.

Throwing a paper dart at a metal wall but what other options do players have?

I get why people are annoyed, I get the poor service but in real life shit like this happens and people have to get on with it.

One of the perks of being a poker player is you get to do something you love as a living. In exchange for that you lose security of employment, benefits and deal with variance. We muggles get security and benefits with no real variance but heavily capped upsides and jobs we more than likely hate.

Now when you wizards see us write on FB "fuck my life hate my job" you sit and think "why doesn't he do something he likes like me" when in reality 95% plus have to do things they dislike for society for function unless folk like doing boring stuff.

Therefore in the same way when the security thing starts impacting you, we sit there going "well if he wants a security get a 9-5"

Now let's look at real life. I used to work at a place. Paid bonuses 10 years running, discretionary but by now deemed as expected as had been paid out even in rough years. I had an amazing year, upped my game, got the highest appraisal band as I really wanted to max my bonus. Worked 100+ hours more than I had to. They had an OK year and announced no bonuses. I worked the way I did in expectation, they have a higher duty of care than a service provider to me, and they can still do that.
Am I going on strike? Course not. I got to pay dem bills.

If anyone cannot beat the game without rake back they need to reasses their profession. Relying on a loyalty scheme from a profit making business is not a good work model. It's like me grinding nectar points for a living. Do everyone's shopping on my card and live off the points. If Sainsburys cut it, will it be there fault? No, it's mine for running a flimsy living.

Just keep crushing, if your a Pads, Adam, Dan type you are bright guys that will evolve, all this anger and angst is just -ve long term.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."

If that's the best you can do to find other people affected apart from the Pro's, then your are clutching a massive bag of straws.

I get why you, and other people are annoyed with Stars. I think, on the issue of uncommunicated removal / reduction of benefits, you have every right to be very annoyed with them.
What I don't get is how a very intelligent person, cannot understand why people not directly, or immediately, affected by the issue, do not see things in the same way.

I would be very happy for you if you managed to get Stars to change their minds on any of this, I genuinely would. However, I think it's a waste of your time and energy, trying to get the wider poker world to do anything to help you.

"Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected."

so, thats most poker players unaffected then?

any impact on the micro levels that Stars are clearly trying tyo cultivate?

DTD has been looking after the recreational players properly for years. 3/4 years ago, a few of the professional regulars got together with Rob etc and we said "hey Rob, how about some rakeback (effective) scheme for the cash game players?".

He was on board and there were a few months with a great scheme that we were very happy with. The recreational players were happy with it too I think.

However the results showed no increase in cash game traffic, actually a decrease, lulls after each month (players played so much to get the monthly bonus and did their disposable £ quicker) and negatively affected the tournament numbers too (hazy about the details but as far as I remember that is all true).

Now who won? The pros? Sure, in the short term. But the games dried up and before too long the scheme was scrapped.

Maybe I'm talking out of my arse here, but in a small player pool like DTD, have we seen the affects there of SNE-type schemes under a microscope? Pro's swarm around like bees trying to get the volume in, add 3rd party software to get more tables and the recreational players get eaten up quicker.

DTD realised ages ago that the recreational players are their #1 customers, and grass-roots poker has been the focus for a while, with a trickle-up system just like DNegs alluded to (all about getting the XXL players into the deepstacks, into the UKPC, WPT etc).

And the pros? Some couldn't make it pay and have quit the game, some moved their business elsewhere, but the best ones have stuck around and made the adjustments, and are making it work, without complaints. That's exactly what will happen at stars.

(I fully understand the anger behind the communication of the changes, and get how people feel lied to and the money grab of the FPPs etc, that's all a different issue and I sympathise)

I do play eurosites.

I understand some of what you are saying, I get it, stars are making it harder for us regulars. However, you are just angry like many people.

Being angry and upset is a pretty expected response from most people because they are being affected in a negative way. A lot of people dedicated a lot of money to pokerstars as a plan to make more money from themselves. Once changes had been implemented, that meant that their hard work was for nothing and that they won't be getting the rewards they were promised. Just get a fucking grip, pokerstars have every right to do what they want to their customers. If they believe they are doing something for the benefit of their company then they are entitled to do it. Perhaps for whatever reason they believe that online poker isn't going to be a good market in 5 years and that they are trying to get all the money now.

I have an example that can be slightly related to what is going on here, it isn't massively related, but let me get to the point.

Over the last 20-30 years the world of snooker has changed dramatically. It began with the golden era of the 80's when colour tv was prominent and snooker has a surge in popularity. Potting grey ball after grey ball would have never been too appealing. There was a lull in the 90's. At this point Steve Davis had already earned millions in the game, with inflation it will be very difficult for anyone to ever surpass his career earnings. Snooker was certainly dying a slow death by the naughties although there seemed to be more tours than ever, especially with the recent interest in the game over in China. Around 2010-2011 there were a lot of changes commercially. The world rankings were beginning to become very important and competitive. Be in the top 16 and you are guaranteed a spot in the big prize pool events. It cost a hell of a lot of money to get to this spot if you weren't a talent like the elite few (Ronnie, Robertson, Selby Higgins to name a few). Now one player who dedicated his career to this top 16 spot was Mark Allen. He had just made it to the top 16 after hundreds of thousands of prize winnings spent into getting to this stage when Barry Hearn announced that the top 16 rule would no longer exist for making a guaranteed spot in big ranking events. Mark Allen was distraught and he was not afraid of showing his anger towards Barry about this all.

My point is, there is are always changes in all avenues of sports. Some good, some bad. Deal with it, strive to be the best, adjust and evolve. If you don't like it anymore, quit.

Mark Allen:


Toys were out of the pram, and I don't blame him for feeling that way, but he moved on, as you will you Adam, as will most. Some will quit, some will wither away. New blood will come in. More changes will be on the way.

Surely it's a balancing act.

Yes, the recs are the number one priority, but the recs are soon going to stop turning up if they arrive for a game and there isn't one for them to play in.

I remeber someone on Facebook moaning because they'd driven for over an hour to DTD to play a specific tournament (I think it was a seniors event) only to discover there were only 7 players registered.

The pros start the games and keep them running. If they disappear, there will be no games for the recs to play in.

you are right Kieth....

IF the pro's really are going to quit, which lets be honest they will not, providing that stars will keep the recreational player pool fresh.

If the player pool was smaller like the DTD seniors event then it would be a worry for stars that there offerings might get damaged but the player pool is so vast and people will always step up. If recreational players cant find action at 10 20 anymore after the changes then likely they will find games at 3/6 instead and thats great for stars.

They've got ya, basically.

i don't understand why we need to have all these analogies online poker isn't snooker or a gym or internet explorer. they have a monopoly and they are increasing their pricing. that's about it.

http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Business_economics/Monopoly.html

When I was about six I got really fucking annoyed when I ran bad at Monopoly

Everyone has lost thier temper at some point during a monopoly game.

When only a 9 Fucks you up and you have to suffer some obnoxious  family smugly grinning at you whilst they count your money...

Anyone with an fpp in their balance is affected too.

I guess those that live in a hole on Mars will be badly affected, the rest have been told to cash in.

The whole strike strategy has been wrong. They have games that run now with 1 paying four times the rake of the other 5 at the table.  And the fella paying 4 is the one that keeps going.  Rather than saying we can all pay 1.5 or 2, the strike has been about we want to carry on paying 1.  Ansky admitted on day 1 of the strike he didn't really give a toss about any redistribution, and only cared about retaining his current position.  

I think people should just recognise supernova elite is terrible for the game, admit as much, and move on to try and get the rake reduced in games that will not work without SNE next year.  

If stars didn't won't gain anything from changing fpps to stars coins at a none parity rate, why would they do so? They are praying on the naive. If you go to the stars website it won't tell you that they value is different.

I've said I didn't think the strike would be effective. I said I didn't want to do nothing,  so chose to do something.

Everyone who isn't exactly a chrome star is worse off. I couldn't be bothered explaining all this to people who haven't read about it

Wiiiiiiiiiiiii, I'm a chrome star but don't display it to brag like

PokerStars' Lee Jones Responds to Controversial VIP Changes

video interview on http://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/12/pokerstars-lee-jones-responds-to-vip-changes-23635.htm

Alex Millar "sitting out" as he quits 'Stars.

Alex Millar ‏@Kanupoker  3h3 hours ago
I’d like to apologise to the players for my complete failure to be able to help in any way with the recent pokerstars VIP changes (1/2)

Alex Millar ‏@Kanupoker  3h3 hours ago
With @RealKidPoker eventually failing as well I no longer feel I can represent the company and I have now left Team Pro Online (2/2)

See @kanupoker

wpsir, seems Vicky Coren wasn't the only stars pro with a bit of integrity.

Very much doubt I would leave one of those very cushy team online deals so hats off to Mr Millar

http://www.sprucepointcap.com/it-the-intertain-group-ltd/

Intertain lost 20% today on the back of this. Shame I didn't look into it more.

http://www.flushdraw.net/news/amaya-acknowledges-kentucky-judgment-hints-at-scheinberg-clawback-contingency/