Who's sitting out?

[arbboy]

It's not really like that though Dan. The top tier have money saved, can invest into different ventures, can afford not to work and contemplate what's next. Stars are going after all tiers. The low and mid tiers will be fucked too, the difference being they depend on poker for a living and without it will struggle to pay bills.

Sure it's a level Pads.  I will bite though.  Get a job maybe like the vast majority of society?  A lot of low/mid tier footballers would love to make a living from playing football.  Sadly they are not in the elite so they have to get a job to pay their bills.  The reality is top level pros feed off these guys who can't make it pay at the elite level but keeping playing the super tues and other elite level mtts/cash games but won't get a job.  So your life is suddenly going to become tougher because their losses which feed up the food chain to you won't be there for much longer.  There are so many people talking through their own wallets on this issue it really is started to get boring.

I could have gone on strike when betfair brought in the premium charge (effectively the same as what stars are doing) but i just cracked on (mainly because like on stars it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to their decision).  The game is very tough.  If i can't make it pay i will just get a job.  I won't be crying because a business with an effective monopoly who choose to maximise their own revenue at my expense to a certain extent makes these decisions.  It's life.  It's called enterprise/business/commerce whatever you want to call it.  Survival of the fittest.

[George2Loose]

Betfair introduced a premium charge? Someone should've said

[rfgqqabc]

And how would you describe your fellow professional punters that applauded Betfair for their premium charges? I will make a living playing poker for as long as I want to. I have absolutely no doubt about my own ability. I'm tired of a company lying to me. I'm tired of other people telling me it is good for me. I'm tired of other pros being apathetic and not caring when perhaps they could do something about it. There won't be a poker food chain for too much longer and that seems to please people and I don't really understand why. This is a poker forum that is largely indifferent to a company fucking over 90% of the poker playing community. If I owned a taxi and Uber came to town, I would complain. It is perfectly within their right to do so, and it is perfectly within my right to complain. It really blows my mind that people think Amaya can make such shady changes but posting on a forum about it is wrong, which is exactly what Dan has repeatedly implied. I'm also puzzled by people complaining about the reg protests. I mean, just don't read the thread if you don't want to read this sort of thing lol.

Jakally, you are absolutely wrong with the statement that only regulars are affected by these changes. Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected. That is probably 85%+ of hands played at these stakes...

I play as much poker as possible and would never seat script or sit out whilst waiting for the fish to rebuy. These are obvious negatives to poker and I have never done this. This is a really bad move for poker and I'm simply not going to sit silently on the sidelines and watch it happen. I'm sorry if you think thats the route I should take, feel free to not read my posts, I'm sure you won't be the only one.

Dan your comments about it only affecting the upper tier poker players lead me to believe you have no idea about the effects these changes will have on YOUR games. I very much doubt a regular who makes 250k a year playing cash games will decide to get a job when he can make 150k playing mtts. It says a lot that your not already playing on these euro sites. I will probably stop posting on the subject as I'm largely talking to myself, or trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced about these changes, it has felt about as effective as the Stars strike.

[George2Loose]

I think it's your attitude to the changes. If you're an elite player like arb states the roll with it, adjust and beat these new MTTers (which I think is being overstated anyway)

[arbboy]

And how would you describe your fellow professional punters that applauded Betfair for their premium charges? I will make a living playing poker for as long as I want to. I have absolutely no doubt about my own ability. I'm tired of a company lying to me. I'm tired of other people telling me it is good for me. I'm tired of other pros being apathetic and not caring when perhaps they could do something about it. There won't be a poker food chain for too much longer and that seems to please people and I don't really understand why. This is a poker forum that is largely indifferent to a company fucking over 90% of the poker playing community. If I owned a taxi and Uber came to town, I would complain. It is perfectly within their right to do so, and it is perfectly within my right to complain. It really blows my mind that people think Amaya can make such shady changes but posting on a forum about it is wrong, which is exactly what Dan has repeatedly implied. I'm also puzzled by people complaining about the reg protests. I mean, just don't read the thread if you don't want to read this sort of thing lol.

Jakally, you are absolutely wrong with the statement that only regulars are affected by these changes. Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected. That is probably 85%+ of hands played at these stakes...

I play as much poker as possible and would never seat script or sit out whilst waiting for the fish to rebuy. These are obvious negatives to poker and I have never done this. This is a really bad move for poker and I'm simply not going to sit silently on the sidelines and watch it happen. I'm sorry if you think thats the route I should take, feel free to not read my posts, I'm sure you won't be the only one.

Dan your comments about it only affecting the upper tier poker players lead me to believe you have no idea about the effects these changes will have on YOUR games. I very much doubt a regular who makes 250k a year playing cash games will decide to get a job when he can make 150k playing mtts. It says a lot that your not already playing on these euro sites. I will probably stop posting on the subject as I'm largely talking to myself, or trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced about these changes, it has felt about as effective as the Stars strike.

Everyone appreciates this isn't good for you.  Everyone knows you are talking through your wallet (just like i could if i moaned about the PC killing liquidity on betfair) but i choose not to in public and not strike when it was introduced.  I just decided to adjust what i did or get a job.  

If you are tired of a company lying to you as a customer (which all these pros say they are) then move on and give your 'business' to another company which doesn't lie to you.  Two problems here.   Firstly you are not a customer of stars you are a supplier and by the nature of being a supplier to a monopoly business you have very little, if any, power in any discussions you have with them.  Rather similar to the dairy farmers have with Tesco.  They haven't spent zillions building up this monopoly to not cash in at some stage.  This is the cash cow cash in period for the investors.

You can post all you like about the changes.  The bottom line is you are 100/1 to reverse any of them to any meaningful level.  Therefore you might as well just crack on quietly.

I get your pain.  I have been there, done it, been through it myself.   Read all the similar moans and groans on the bf forum 5 years ago.  Nothng changed because of it and nothing will change here because of it.   If anything the more you moan the more stars will realise they are right doing what they are doing for the good of their business.

[Whollyflush]

Betfair introduced a premium charge? Someone should've said

What!
You've never played the arbboy betfair exchange drinking game? Guaranteed mortal a few posts in! (just joshing arbboy nothing personal!)

[rfgqqabc]

And how would you describe your fellow professional punters that applauded Betfair for their premium charges? I will make a living playing poker for as long as I want to. I have absolutely no doubt about my own ability. I'm tired of a company lying to me. I'm tired of other people telling me it is good for me. I'm tired of other pros being apathetic and not caring when perhaps they could do something about it. There won't be a poker food chain for too much longer and that seems to please people and I don't really understand why. This is a poker forum that is largely indifferent to a company fucking over 90% of the poker playing community. If I owned a taxi and Uber came to town, I would complain. It is perfectly within their right to do so, and it is perfectly within my right to complain. It really blows my mind that people think Amaya can make such shady changes but posting on a forum about it is wrong, which is exactly what Dan has repeatedly implied. I'm also puzzled by people complaining about the reg protests. I mean, just don't read the thread if you don't want to read this sort of thing lol.

Jakally, you are absolutely wrong with the statement that only regulars are affected by these changes. Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected. That is probably 85%+ of hands played at these stakes...

I play as much poker as possible and would never seat script or sit out whilst waiting for the fish to rebuy. These are obvious negatives to poker and I have never done this. This is a really bad move for poker and I'm simply not going to sit silently on the sidelines and watch it happen. I'm sorry if you think thats the route I should take, feel free to not read my posts, I'm sure you won't be the only one.

Dan your comments about it only affecting the upper tier poker players lead me to believe you have no idea about the effects these changes will have on YOUR games. I very much doubt a regular who makes 250k a year playing cash games will decide to get a job when he can make 150k playing mtts. It says a lot that your not already playing on these euro sites. I will probably stop posting on the subject as I'm largely talking to myself, or trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced about these changes, it has felt about as effective as the Stars strike.

Everyone appreciates this isn't good for you.  Everyone knows you are talking through your wallet (just like i could if i moaned about the PC killing liquidity on betfair) but i choose not to in public and not strike when it was introduced.  I just decided to adjust what i did or get a job.  

If you are tired of a company lying to you as a customer (which all these pros say they are) then move on and give your 'business' to another company which doesn't lie to you.  Two problems here.   Firstly you are not a customer of stars you are a supplier and by the nature of being a supplier to a monopoly business you have very little, if any, power in any discussions you have with them.  Rather similar to the dairy farmers have with Tesco.  They haven't spent zillions building up this monopoly to not cash in at some stage.  This is the cash cow cash in period for the investors.

You can post all you like about the changes.  The bottom line is you are 100/1 to reverse any of them to any meaningful level.  Therefore you might as well just crack on quietly.

I get your pain.  I have been there, done it, been through it myself.   Read all the similar moans and groans on the bf forum 5 years ago.  Nothng changed because of it and nothing will change here because of it.   If anything the more you moan the more stars will realise they are right doing what they are doing for the good of their business.

Why would I move my business if it is bad for them? I intend to bumhunt harder and win more money next year. They have added fuel to my fire.

[arbboy]

And how would you describe your fellow professional punters that applauded Betfair for their premium charges? I will make a living playing poker for as long as I want to. I have absolutely no doubt about my own ability. I'm tired of a company lying to me. I'm tired of other people telling me it is good for me. I'm tired of other pros being apathetic and not caring when perhaps they could do something about it. There won't be a poker food chain for too much longer and that seems to please people and I don't really understand why. This is a poker forum that is largely indifferent to a company fucking over 90% of the poker playing community. If I owned a taxi and Uber came to town, I would complain. It is perfectly within their right to do so, and it is perfectly within my right to complain. It really blows my mind that people think Amaya can make such shady changes but posting on a forum about it is wrong, which is exactly what Dan has repeatedly implied. I'm also puzzled by people complaining about the reg protests. I mean, just don't read the thread if you don't want to read this sort of thing lol.

Jakally, you are absolutely wrong with the statement that only regulars are affected by these changes. Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected. That is probably 85%+ of hands played at these stakes...

I play as much poker as possible and would never seat script or sit out whilst waiting for the fish to rebuy. These are obvious negatives to poker and I have never done this. This is a really bad move for poker and I'm simply not going to sit silently on the sidelines and watch it happen. I'm sorry if you think thats the route I should take, feel free to not read my posts, I'm sure you won't be the only one.

Dan your comments about it only affecting the upper tier poker players lead me to believe you have no idea about the effects these changes will have on YOUR games. I very much doubt a regular who makes 250k a year playing cash games will decide to get a job when he can make 150k playing mtts. It says a lot that your not already playing on these euro sites. I will probably stop posting on the subject as I'm largely talking to myself, or trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced about these changes, it has felt about as effective as the Stars strike.

Everyone appreciates this isn't good for you.  Everyone knows you are talking through your wallet (just like i could if i moaned about the PC killing liquidity on betfair) but i choose not to in public and not strike when it was introduced.  I just decided to adjust what i did or get a job.  

If you are tired of a company lying to you as a customer (which all these pros say they are) then move on and give your 'business' to another company which doesn't lie to you.  Two problems here.   Firstly you are not a customer of stars you are a supplier and by the nature of being a supplier to a monopoly business you have very little, if any, power in any discussions you have with them.  Rather similar to the dairy farmers have with Tesco.  They haven't spent zillions building up this monopoly to not cash in at some stage.  This is the cash cow cash in period for the investors.

You can post all you like about the changes.  The bottom line is you are 100/1 to reverse any of them to any meaningful level.  Therefore you might as well just crack on quietly.

I get your pain.  I have been there, done it, been through it myself.   Read all the similar moans and groans on the bf forum 5 years ago.  Nothng changed because of it and nothing will change here because of it.   If anything the more you moan the more stars will realise they are right doing what they are doing for the good of their business.

Why would I move my business if it is bad for them? I intend to bumhunt harder and win more money next year. They have added fuel to my fire.

That's fine.  Good luck.  You have to turn your business into a margin focused one over a volume one.  You might end up winning more money doing this in absolute terms and have less swings (as your edge will be bigger) and do less work as well.  Pokerstars will get more rake per hand you play.  Win win spot.

I doubt everyone will be as smart as you and make the adjustments.

[SuuPRlim]

It's a horrible spot with which i empathize, stars have made it outwardly clear they do not care in the slightest for the best interests of professional poker players - rightly or wrongly they believe that this base of customers will continue to use their product regardless of how they treat them, so they are going to squeeze you dry. It is unfortunately pretty much the only option that a public company answering to a board of non-poker, corporate, commercially driven shareholders would have here.

Now they have decided they don't care about you at all, but you require this business to make a living...what can you do... sitting home futile saying "oh well nothing I can do" seems weak, the strike was well intentioned but genuinely wasn't even thinking about it was so ineffective aside form making players feel like they were controlling their destiny a bit more.

Throwing a paper dart at a metal wall but what other options do players have?

[OverTheBorder]

I get why people are annoyed, I get the poor service but in real life shit like this happens and people have to get on with it.

One of the perks of being a poker player is you get to do something you love as a living. In exchange for that you lose security of employment, benefits and deal with variance. We muggles get security and benefits with no real variance but heavily capped upsides and jobs we more than likely hate.

Now when you wizards see us write on FB "fuck my life hate my job" you sit and think "why doesn't he do something he likes like me" when in reality 95% plus have to do things they dislike for society for function unless folk like doing boring stuff.

Therefore in the same way when the security thing starts impacting you, we sit there going "well if he wants a security get a 9-5"

Now let's look at real life. I used to work at a place. Paid bonuses 10 years running, discretionary but by now deemed as expected as had been paid out even in rough years. I had an amazing year, upped my game, got the highest appraisal band as I really wanted to max my bonus. Worked 100+ hours more than I had to. They had an OK year and announced no bonuses. I worked the way I did in expectation, they have a higher duty of care than a service provider to me, and they can still do that.
Am I going on strike? Course not. I got to pay dem bills.

If anyone cannot beat the game without rake back they need to reasses their profession. Relying on a loyalty scheme from a profit making business is not a good work model. It's like me grinding nectar points for a living. Do everyone's shopping on my card and live off the points. If Sainsburys cut it, will it be there fault? No, it's mine for running a flimsy living.

Just keep crushing, if your a Pads, Adam, Dan type you are bright guys that will evolve, all this anger and angst is just -ve long term.

[Pinchop73]

"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."

[jakally]

Jakally, you are absolutely wrong with the statement that only regulars are affected by these changes. Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected. That is probably 85%+ of hands played at these stakes...

If that's the best you can do to find other people affected apart from the Pro's, then your are clutching a massive bag of straws.

I get why you, and other people are annoyed with Stars. I think, on the issue of uncommunicated removal / reduction of benefits, you have every right to be very annoyed with them.
What I don't get is how a very intelligent person, cannot understand why people not directly, or immediately, affected by the issue, do not see things in the same way.

I would be very happy for you if you managed to get Stars to change their minds on any of this, I genuinely would. However, I think it's a waste of your time and energy, trying to get the wider poker world to do anything to help you.

[TightEnd]

"Any recreational player that plays a hand @ 5/10 or above will be affected."

so, thats most poker players unaffected then?

any impact on the micro levels that Stars are clearly trying tyo cultivate?

[cambridgealex]

DTD has been looking after the recreational players properly for years. 3/4 years ago, a few of the professional regulars got together with Rob etc and we said "hey Rob, how about some rakeback (effective) scheme for the cash game players?".

He was on board and there were a few months with a great scheme that we were very happy with. The recreational players were happy with it too I think.

However the results showed no increase in cash game traffic, actually a decrease, lulls after each month (players played so much to get the monthly bonus and did their disposable £ quicker) and negatively affected the tournament numbers too (hazy about the details but as far as I remember that is all true).

Now who won? The pros? Sure, in the short term. But the games dried up and before too long the scheme was scrapped.

Maybe I'm talking out of my arse here, but in a small player pool like DTD, have we seen the affects there of SNE-type schemes under a microscope? Pro's swarm around like bees trying to get the volume in, add 3rd party software to get more tables and the recreational players get eaten up quicker.

DTD realised ages ago that the recreational players are their #1 customers, and grass-roots poker has been the focus for a while, with a trickle-up system just like DNegs alluded to (all about getting the XXL players into the deepstacks, into the UKPC, WPT etc).

And the pros? Some couldn't make it pay and have quit the game, some moved their business elsewhere, but the best ones have stuck around and made the adjustments, and are making it work, without complaints. That's exactly what will happen at stars.

(I fully understand the anger behind the communication of the changes, and get how people feel lied to and the money grab of the FPPs etc, that's all a different issue and I sympathise)

[lucky_scrote]

Dan your comments about it only affecting the upper tier poker players lead me to believe you have no idea about the effects these changes will have on YOUR games. I very much doubt a regular who makes 250k a year playing cash games will decide to get a job when he can make 150k playing mtts. It says a lot that your not already playing on these euro sites. I will probably stop posting on the subject as I'm largely talking to myself, or trying to convince people who don't want to be convinced about these changes, it has felt about as effective as the Stars strike.

I do play eurosites.

I understand some of what you are saying, I get it, stars are making it harder for us regulars. However, you are just angry like many people.

Being angry and upset is a pretty expected response from most people because they are being affected in a negative way. A lot of people dedicated a lot of money to pokerstars as a plan to make more money from themselves. Once changes had been implemented, that meant that their hard work was for nothing and that they won't be getting the rewards they were promised. Just get a fucking grip, pokerstars have every right to do what they want to their customers. If they believe they are doing something for the benefit of their company then they are entitled to do it. Perhaps for whatever reason they believe that online poker isn't going to be a good market in 5 years and that they are trying to get all the money now.

I have an example that can be slightly related to what is going on here, it isn't massively related, but let me get to the point.

Over the last 20-30 years the world of snooker has changed dramatically. It began with the golden era of the 80's when colour tv was prominent and snooker has a surge in popularity. Potting grey ball after grey ball would have never been too appealing. There was a lull in the 90's. At this point Steve Davis had already earned millions in the game, with inflation it will be very difficult for anyone to ever surpass his career earnings. Snooker was certainly dying a slow death by the naughties although there seemed to be more tours than ever, especially with the recent interest in the game over in China. Around 2010-2011 there were a lot of changes commercially. The world rankings were beginning to become very important and competitive. Be in the top 16 and you are guaranteed a spot in the big prize pool events. It cost a hell of a lot of money to get to this spot if you weren't a talent like the elite few (Ronnie, Robertson, Selby Higgins to name a few). Now one player who dedicated his career to this top 16 spot was Mark Allen. He had just made it to the top 16 after hundreds of thousands of prize winnings spent into getting to this stage when Barry Hearn announced that the top 16 rule would no longer exist for making a guaranteed spot in big ranking events. Mark Allen was distraught and he was not afraid of showing his anger towards Barry about this all.

My point is, there is are always changes in all avenues of sports. Some good, some bad. Deal with it, strive to be the best, adjust and evolve. If you don't like it anymore, quit.

Mark Allen:

“Barry’s just there to make money for himself, it doesn’t matter about the players. The whole tradition of the game is going to pot.
“He (Hearn) needs to get away from the darts factor. It’s getting close to that. I think in the long run he’ll probably do good for snooker, but not for my generation. It’s time to let someone else have a go.”

Toys were out of the pram, and I don't blame him for feeling that way, but he moved on, as you will you Adam, as will most. Some will quit, some will wither away. New blood will come in. More changes will be on the way.