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TMOs and Instant replays are now part of many sports

- the NFL

- Rugby Union and League

- Cricket

Being examples

some rely on a challenge system where the coach/manager/captain gets for example a challenge per half. others like the rugby codes the ref refers an incident to the main in the truck

Football has none of this (goal-line technology is the only innovation in use, and works well).

isn't it time for football to get with it, and help referees?


as an aside, shouldn't we mike refs up, hear what they are saying to players (and players back to them) as we see in rugby and cricket and helps the viewer experience so much? 

The oft mooted downside is that it slows the game

The upsides in getting more decisions correct are considerable though

   

The trouble with football is that the rule book isn't good enough. In the NFL they have a rule for every conceivable situation, so 99% of the time if you know the facts, you know what the ruling is. It's quite normal in football to have a pundit's panel say things like "I thought that was a foul", "it wasn't a foul for me", "there was no intent", going in with two feet, off the ground,. all that stuff isn't written down anywhere.

Unless they can clean up the rules, I think TV officials are a non starter.

Talk of the rule in rugby where only the captain is allowed to converse with the ref being brought in to football. Would be a hugely positive change in my opinion.

It's coming, just at FIFA's usual glacial pace:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38318258


Japan's Kashima Antlers became the first side to benefit from a video replay in a Fifa competition as they scored a penalty in their 3-0 Club World Cup semi-final win.

Referee Viktor Kassai stopped the game after being alerted to an incident by his assistant, then gave a penalty after viewing footage on a monitor.

Flag in football once a half from the coachces NFL style would be so easy to use on major disputes/decisions.  Most key decisions involve play being stopped anyway naturally.  Man U's goal yday being off side being a key example.  We have to get these things right even if the game is paused.  Football gets paused all the time for a minute or so with injuries/handbags fights etc so i don't get the moaning about it slowing the game down.

I remember a ref being miked up for a game about 15 years ago - the things that were said to him were not really suitable for broadcast at 4pm on a Sunday afternoon :)

Found it on Youtube

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ruNosLNOE

Wouldn't disrupt the game in anyway to have every goal reviewed while the players are fannying around dabbing and knee sliding. A lot of the decisions, seen in real time, are almost impossible to call anway.

Of course it's time for this and has been for about 10 years, football is the biggest game in the world and it's stuck in the dark days.

Also it's about time the panelists/pundits brushed up in their knowledge some of them are so lazy and biased it's embarassing.

At what level do you stop offering video replays/ challenges etc in football tho?

NFL and college ball are several levels above leagues lower in the pyramid where football in most countries has a more gradual pyramid. Where do you draw the line in England alone?

The one thing that could be introduced is retrospective refereeing, which would instantly make the games less pathetic and cut down on all the play acting and diving/other cheating. Those guilty would get retrospective cards for the cheating, someone carded could get them rescinded too. Release a report with each minute and incident documented and then hand out punishments. Officials should get the same treatment too, Mike Dean gets a 2 match ban for poor Reffing in last nights game for example, the Lino that missed the offside too.

The basic rules of the game seem to have changed too, when did 'contact' instantly become a free kick for example?

You don't give fouls for touching someone in other sports, why is touching someone and them cheating by just falling over suddenly accepted as a foul in football? How would video replays change decisions unless the rules are clear?

I'd make instant replay, time outs and challenges most important alongside retrospective Reffing. punishment for cheating would improve the game no end.

Exactly why would making the games longer by extending games to make sure decisions/incidents are called correctly be seen as a bad thing anyway?

In England I think EPL/Championship is a must. 

I guess the argument there tho bud is the differences between Championship and League 1 is very small and League 1 to League 2 even smaller. And it gets smaller still as you go down. If you went even lower down the pyramids it gets almost negligible. For example Scots Div 2 and Highland league. Even if we extended it to the 'Pro' leagues in England and Scotland it still comes down to why would Edinburgh City games now have all the technological advances in their games but Buckie Thistle don't?

I think it needs to be a fundimental change to the make up of football not just for the TV leagues

The difference between the championship and league 1 is massive in financial and wages terms.    Seems a very logical cut off point for me between these two leagues.

Very much this for me, I saw two examples on MOTD last night where goals were given by the goal line technology where the ref instantly pointed to his watch to indicate he had been told the ball was over the line by the technology. I mean seriously, if you invented a sport now where you said it is sometimes impossible to tell if a score has been made in a game that averages 2 1/2 scores a game you would get laughed at. Yet it's taken years for just that piece of technology to be introduced.

They tried video replay for refs for goals, fouls, red and yellow cards in an MLS reserve game this season. The main incident that went to review was a free kick on the edge of the box that was originally called correctly by the ref at real time. the video was called to check it was outside the area and if it was worthy of a yellow or red card. Video confirmation made it a free kick and a red card.

There were other incidents in the game that went to video confirmation yet the total added time was just 4 minutes which must show how well it worked.

I can't copy n paste the link I found but it's a interesting read.

That might be the best call Arb but in Scotland the drop between Prem league and Chsmpionship has a bigger drop off, if we say top two leagues in each country get the technology we would be left with a situation where Ayr Utd games get the technology but Sheff Utd games don't. Its hard to say where that line is drawn, all footy league and high end non league games have cameras there now. Why not just make it a fundamental change to the game and not just where the money is?

Think the key point is to get it in the very top leagues to start with before we worry about Ayr united and their 300 supporters being pissed off when Forfar score a dodgy goal against them!

This was where I was approaching from.  The money involved in EPL/Championship is massive.  Although the money in Scotland isn't the same there is a massive difference between SPL and Championship and most of the teams in championship aren't too interested in promotion to SPL.

Who knows if we start it in TV leagues then perhaps it may help improve the overall standards of refereeing.

One of the biggest problems for me is the decision makers in the game are all grey haired men in suits and they don't see the same issues as many fans do.

City should have had a penalty at 75 minutes yesterday and Walker sent off. (BTW credit to Walker for admitting to the offence in the post match interview). Assuming YaYa with his 100% record scores the penalty City go 3-1 up against a 10 man Tottenham who at that point had not really created much. Let's say City go on to win, not guaranteed, but say a c98% probability.

Arsenal today score a last minute winner when clearly it should have been disallowed for offside and maybe a c99% probability (not sure how much time was left seconds or a minute) and  the game ends in a draw.

Today 2nd-4th in the table is:
Arsenal  47
Spurs 46
Liverpool 45
City 43

With both incidents the TV evidence was there in seconds. Both black and white decisions and not a matter of opinion subject to debate.



The table could/should look like this:
Spurs 45
Liverpool 45
Arsenal 45
City 45.

That's 2 decisions and the potential impact is huge. Like others I think it is madness the available technology is not utilised.

Edit: Just seen Rinswun's post in the Arsenal thread. Only saw the last 10 minutes of the Arsenal game and not aware there was a stonewaller  earlier in the game. The point above still applies tho.

There was also a stonewall penalty which Arsenal didn't get when Mustafi was tripped in their box a few minutes before he scored the opening goal - who knows what might have happened if that had been awarded?

Hull denied a clear penalty now.

Beat you by 20 seconds with my edit! I agree BTW.

Easier Said than done. Loads say ' lets use video replays' But nobody ever puts down clearly and specifically when, where and how they would be used.
Other than 'for the big decisions' or ither such claptrap.

Pretty sure EUFA, FIFA and Prem League have thought about it and seen the problems.

So they lad behind the rest of the world?

You use them for any possible penalty or offside and award the coach with a challenge like the do in the NFL for example.  If you win your challenge if you keep it, it's gone. 

You show great faith in organisations like FIFA/UEFA/EPL without much justification.

Any possible penalty?

So after every corner then for sure?

When do you stop the play to review it?
How far back in the play do you go?
Who decided when there has been a 'possible penalty?

etc, etc

The manager with a challenge flag, it's not hard.

How long doesthe Manager have after the iincident to show his flag?

Javi Garcia's 'goal' for Pool against Chelsea in Champions League. Maradonna's 'goal' against England in the World Cup. Geoff Hurst's 'goal' against Germany in World Cup Final. Iconic footballing moments, that'll be talked about forever.
Part of the joy of football is arguing 'what if's'. If you remove all officiating mistakes, you lose some of that emotive power.
Football has never been healthier. Changing a small thing can have a big impact. Who would have thought the back pass rule would have such a massive impact on the game? Thankfully it was a positive one but it remains to be seen how using widespread tv technology would change the landscape. It may have some negative aspects.
If all mistakes were corrected, the variance would presumably lessen? Therefore the stronger teams would prevail more often? Therefore football might become more predictable and a little less exciting?   
I'm not arguing one way or another, just playing Devils Advocate.

It's not claptrap. It's real and imminent. I was aware of the trials but only just found out that VAR is being introduced in Germany from the start of next season.

March 2016
Cardiff, United Kingdom // The International Football Association Board (IFAB), which governs the rules of the game, has approved testing of video technology to aid match officials, it was announced on Saturday.
Experiments will be carried out over a two-year period starting no later than the 2017/18 season before a final decision is taken on whether to adopt the technology permanently.
Fifa described it as a "landmark decision" but said the experiments would allow IFAB "to identify the advantages, disadvantages and worst-case scenarios".
The trials will allow referees to call on video assistance to help determine four categories of game-changing moments -- goals scored, red cards, penalties and mistaken identity.

Sep16 to Dec 16 Trials in Bundesliga.  Bundesliga is running video assistant trials this season.
For the first part of this season - in 144 matches - 44 clear ref mistakes have been found.
33 of them could have been overruled based on the criteria in place (goals, pens, straight reds and mistaken identity for cards), about 2 decisions per matchday.

Jan17 VAR approved for use in Bundesliga from the start of next season:
http://www.worldsoccer.com/news/germanys-bundesliga-approves-use-of-video-assistant-referees-394359

PL will follow hopefully from 18/19.  

Good post. The fact that the rub of the green can possibly make a difference in every single game just adds to the magic of competitive sports surely. Also is it necessary? If football was dying (lol, ridiculous thought obv) then sure but seems to be growing fine as it is. Also naturally concerned that if they haven't figured it out yet in an industry as massive as football...well it probably can't be done.

Good post and I love the drama but I feel as a fan and punter there are far too many bad decisions being made and I would hope it cuts out the cheating we see week in week  out

So IFAB are going to have a 2 year trial period before deciding whether to go ahead?
Can't be that simple can it?

Also it is the referee who decides to use replays, so no 'video ref' which is what most people propose. No 'challenge flag' which people on here say is easily done!

Its so easy to do - yet so many different views and no firm protocol from anyone

In the Bundesliga, they are going to have 4 video refs. With a technician showing them replays 'within a few seconds'
Really (have they seena Rugby match with replays!!

Also reason 2 for example 'where the referee unjusifiably awards a penalt ir nit'

Where the ref awards a penalty- who the hell decides if its 'unjustified'. If course there will ve idd times when the ref us blatantly wrong but the vast majority of times its a matter of opinion.

What about when the ref does not award a penalty. Same thing - who decides that there should have been one? When do they stop the play? Do they review the footage if the incident? If they do and the on field ref says no penalty bit the vid ref says penalty - who has the say?

What if they are looking at that incident (say from a corner) they spot another incident which they had not seen before - do they look at that incident? Does that take preference over the other incident?

So many questions , scenarios and details.

The Bundesliga protocol is so woolly ( compared to RL or Union protocols)

Look at 3. 'for offences that should have lead to a red card'

Whi decides. The majority if red card decisions are a matter if opinion. Are they saying that if the on field ref gives a yellow card but the vid refs 'think' it should be red then they tell ref to send him off? I mean whos opinion is the more valuable or valid?

its simply moving one mans opinion to another's imo

Bundesliga 4

Mistaken identity.

Why doesnt the real culprit own up. No need fir any replays at all

From what I can glean the German system will be based on clear-cut decisions only in the 4 categories listed earlier in the thread. My interpretation of "clear-cut" is that they mean matters of fact rather than matters of opinion. Additionally, the final decision is with the ref on the pitch (not the video referee) who will have the final say. He will do this by having access to a pitch side monitor and obviously be able to communicate with the video ref. 

Will it delay the game? Yes, but based on the experiment over 144 games there would have been just 33 interventions - so 1 per c4.4 games - and no doubt many of these are directly after a goal has been scored and there is no interruption to the flow of the game. Presumably offsides using a Hawkeye system will be a big part of this.

I really like the sound of this and it would be really interesting to see the 33 examples of when they conclude it should be used.

Lee H, not sure if you are playing devils advocate or just one of the most negative people in the world.

These are all points that get tested, and ironed out.

In Cricket when technology first came in it was not perfect, they have tried loads of things, sniko, hot spot, ball tracking (2 different softwares probably more) etc. They are always tweaking but the answer is, video technology will not be perfect, but it will be better than just the naked eye.

Rugby is the same, often the on field referees sees a replay (not always an option i admit) and makes his own decision and does not use the video ref. Now in top level rugby the ref does not even stop play in some instances, he asks for an off the ball incident to be checked and within seconds he has an answer in his ear as to weather play should be stopped or not. Exactly the same could happen in football, tackle goes in, ref is not sure, allows play to continue and asks the TV ref to take a look, within 5-10seconds the TV ref says foul or no foul. Rapid, no stop in play no issue. This to me is way down the line in football though, start with goals, reds, penalties,mistaken identity etc and work up to this level.

There is going to be teething issues of course, but soon (within 5 years) it will be common place and we wont remember what it was like before!

While they are at it, shove a mic on the ref, only captains can speak to the ref. Any swearing caught at the referee is an instant 1 game ban. They is a huge issue at lower leagues with assaults, violence etc to referees, in order to stop this the top level HAVE to set a better examples.

Bubble, are you sure this is what happens in Rugby.

In RL vid replays are only used for two (I think) issues.

Confirmation of a try. (back to previous tackle only)

40/20 Kicks.

Never for fouls/offsides/red cards/ forward passes ior anything else!

Even with this limited use play is often stopped for 2, 3 4 minutes at a time!

Do you watch the Rugby?

Wouldn't mind technology for offsides actually. While the celebrations are going on a tv referee could simply check if the goal is legitimate which wouldn't interrupt the flow of the game and actually add a little sweat/drama to proceedings.

What sbout the occasions when a player is through on goal, the ass ref flags for  offside, the player shoots and scores. Do you look at replays ( and if hes not offside - what do you do) Or do you allow this blatant error to stand?

That's an interesting one actually. You play to the whistle obviously but the ref presumably won't whistle as it'll stop play.
So everytime a player is through on goal, even if he's almost surely offside, you'lll have to play on and then look at it on tv. And what if it's the 93rd minute and the offside player (whose team is 1-0 up) collects it and runs it into the corner. When do you blow? A useful time wasting exercise :)

What % of given goals should have been ruled out for offside, do you think?
My flatmate asked me this a few months ago and I said maybe <10%? He said he thought it was 25%+! We checked that weekend and he was much closer. Just 1 weekend I know but I wonder are those stats available anywhere? Possiby not as the rule is open to interpretation.