Maybe I am little too ABC here but:

I think that I am leading on the flop to thin the field given that 6 have called and as Shipit said to charge the draws...maybe making it 300.  We are only behind to two hands but could be facing lots of draws and if we get raised big we get an answer to the made hand question.

Could they have 77s, 88s or 99s? I'm assuming that the lack of flop bet from them rules out them having 33s or 44s in their range?

I also think that I am leading the river based on the "do your own betting" maxim but then there's the other one that says "bet if you feel you are behind but not sure, check if you reckon you are ahead"

I assume though if they have 10x they are as happy to call as to bet here. I guess the debate is: are they likely to bluff bet more or less than they will call thin and unless we have reads one way or the other it becomes subjective so I go with betting.

Fold pre - too wide.
(as played) Fold to 3-bet - villains range will be tight and we just have an awful hand
(as played) Call flop - got top pair, reasonable chance we're ahead, but can re-evaluate later
(as played) Call turn - villain has bet 4bb into loads, raises achieves nothing really and we can just determine best course of action based upon villains river sizing
(as played) Fold to turn 3-bet - we're drawing dead to any hand he's doing this for value with... and no reason to assume he'd be bluffing here as we can legitimately have straights in our range and if he was being stubborn with overpairs etc you'd expect him to be calling not 3-betting turn... so you just beat completely random spazzes from overs + you have to make the same hero on river if you really think he's fos

Cheers WRTC.

Didn't notice it had been limped:)

Welcome to sky, and good luck.

Cheers been there a while but have recently decided to try and improve by posting/commenting on PHA.

4* seems fine with the limper but yeh just fold pre

Cheers George.  On the turn when he re-raises am I committed to calling or was I ok folding. 

[See PM]

What's your user id on sky?

See PM

As doobs said just fold pre, defo fold to the 3 bet.

Yep realised that was more thinking whether I should have seen it through to the end and called the shove on the turn once I had got myself into the mess

At 10nl on sky, just go for value with your big hands, just bet bet bet

Agreed, just need more discipline

Fine to bluff the ABC regs, they are fit or fold.

Why did you 4 x the button?

As George said I 4xd it due to the limper otherwise I 3x

Would try and stick to 3 x, does the same job as 4x.

Hust fold pre, that hand looks about as bad as you can get.  If you are stealing a lot, you need to bet less.  30p is fine.  You can't raise every unopened pot without people noticing, and this is right at the bottom of hands you will be dealt.  Something like 76 suited is just going to be so much better if you move from just premium hands. 

  Just fold to the 3 bet too, you could be in a World of hurt if you hit a pair.   I don't think people at 5p/10p generally have wide 3 betting ranges, especially not on Sky.  I don't mind the flop call so much, you feel obliged to.  The turn just looks like a call too, he has let you off here.  I really don't know what to do on the river, think folding must be fine, but I think much if the rest looks wrong. 

You really don't need to get this fancy at 5p/10p, just play really ABC down there with the odd bluff, people wil pay you off.  This must be even more true on a site that forbids tracking software.

Cheers Doobs.

Yes by the time I got to the turn I realised that I had walked myself into a world of hurt and then I tried to get tricky bluff raising his turn bet to get myself out of it and got myself into even more pain. 

[Pre Flop]

Apologies if the post doesn't meet recommended format but I had some difficulty trying to export this hand from Sky (I don't have HEM or PT but if another Sky player could recommend the best way to do this I'd be very grateful)

We're playing 4 handed on a 6-max table. Blinds are 5p/10p.  We've been playing for about 30mins and I've no notes or real history with the villain.  Basically from trying to steal the blinds I get myself into a world of pain on flop and turn and would appreciate folks thoughts on pre-flop, flop and turn.  I appreciate that my questions could be answered with a simple fold-pre but as played I would appreciate feedback in the spirit of trying to learn from my mistakes. 

Villain is in BB (£7) and Hero is OTB (£10.50)

Pre Flop
UTG: 10p
Hero ( ): raise to 40p
SB: Fold
Villain: raise to 80p
Hero: call to 80p
Pot: £1.75

I was initially just hoping to steal the blinds with my initial raise and then felt compelled due to pot-odds/implied odds to call his click back.


Questions: Should I be raising this wide? Should I be calling the re-raise?

Flop
 
Villain: bets 80p
Hero: calls
Pot:£3.35

Haven't got a clue where I am at but reckon that as I have hit my 10 I'm obliged to call getting ~3:1.

Question: Should I be calling or should I just take the hint that I'm behind and fold?

Turn
 
Villain: bets 40p
Hero: raises to 2.80
Villain: reraises to 4.90 (has 0.21 left)
Pot 11.45

I decided to fold to cut my losses but I'm not sure that having gotten myself into the mess in the first place I am

Question

I call a lot of hands here and fold flops. I was wondering which hands others would call/fold flops with but maybe it's bad.

I call a lot of hands off a short stack with these odds and have done for a long time.  Got a lit of abuse over the years so guess it must be good.  Having no fold equity isn't something I worry about.  Definitely call this hand and anything pretty.  Will probably fold J2 off etc. 

Was just wondering both (Pleno, Doobs) what the logic is behind calling the extra big blind (given that this is ~25% of our remaining stack) as opposed to what might be considered the standard fold or shove.  I appreciate that we are getting ~4:1 but given our stack size I wouldn't have thought that a call was an option. 

Reading the original question also raised two additional questions which I was wondering what others thoughts are.  Given all things remaining equal (stack sizes, betting etc.) what range of cards should we be shoving with here as opposed to folding/calling? Given that we are getting ~4:1 should we be shoving with 80% of hands or should our range be tighter given any laddering opportunities and the likelihood of us being called given our lack of fold equity?

My other question relates to fold equity and what would be the minimum stack size that we would require (all other things remaining the same as originally described) for us to have some fold equity?

[Range]

Thanks all for the welcome and the feedback on my thoughts.

Range: Rexas I get what you're saying re the range that I assigned being way too wide without any additional information...think I have been reading too much of the more advanced stuff here and got ahead of myself...equally I like the more standard range that you put on the villain.  Do you not think that - given his shove over our iso  as you accurately described it - it is okay to include some bluffs in their range or am I levelling myself by trying to get too clever with my analysis.

Personally, I think the short stack in the big blind makes it a little harder for the small blind to jam complete airball stuff. I mean, he effectively should be coming along with any two cards, and there isn't a side pot if the BB calls and everyone else folds, so this should make him shy away from jamming the 56ss type hands. Just seems like a totally unnecessary thing to do. That being said, hands like low suited Axs are basically bluffs, as well as the lower broadway hands, since you're unlikely to get called by a hand worse than these, but they are doing very well against the sort of hands the BB should be getting in.

As a general rule of thumb, if we are readless in a situation, I tend to shy away from putting my opponents on random bluffs. I like to see proof that they are capable of doing so before I start including random bluffs in their ranges, especially in situations like this, so I stick to thinking of an ABC, sensible range. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the villain won't look down at a pair and fold, and won't look down at say QJ ss and fold, but those hands are a lot different to 56 ss. Basically I'm assuming he's competent and standard until I am given a reason to think otherwise. In relation to this hand, I've given what I think are realistically the best and worse case scenarios for us in terms of the villains range. In game, I'd probably be thinking any suited broadway, most suited Ax hands, and any pair as a reasonably standard jamming range. Maybe even a little tighter than that.

Cheers Rexas makes a lot of sense

[Equity]

Equity: Rexas could you explain to me why we need to 40% and not 60% to call.  I agree with the 1.5:1 ratio which I translated into 3:2 or 3/5 so 60%? If you could show me where I'm going wrong that would be much appreciated

Hi exiled, welcome to blonde. Hope you get out of this forum what you are looking for.

Can you please explain how you went from 3:2 to 3/5?

The correct way to do it as I understand it is what Rexas has mentioned already. Which is to look at what you have to call as a % of the entire pot after you have called. In the case of getting 1.5/1 odds, we all agree this is equivalent to 3/2. Here the pot can be seen as being of size 3 and our call is of size 2. Resulting in the overall pot after to call to be 5, therefore our call as a percentage of the total pot will be our call, 2, divided by the pot, 5. So 2/5 which is 0.4 or 40%.

Hope this helps you

Hi Adiman,

Cheers for the welcome.

I see my mistake from your workings. When I got to 3:2 I mistakenly took the pot size (i.e. the 3) and put it over the denominator (the 5) and hence got 60% not 40%. Many thanks for breaking down the workings for me.

[Range]

Thanks all for the welcome and the feedback on my thoughts.

Range: Rexas I get what you're saying re the range that I assigned being way too wide without any additional information...think I have been reading too much of the more advanced stuff here and got ahead of myself...equally I like the more standard range that you put on the villain.  Do you not think that - given his shove over our iso  as you accurately described it - it is okay to include some bluffs in their range or am I levelling myself by trying to get too clever with my analysis.

Equity: Rexas could you explain to me why we need to 40% and not 60% to call.  I agree with the 1.5:1 ratio which I translated into 3:2 or 3/5 so 60%? If you could show me where I'm going wrong that would be much appreciated

Bounty equity Thanks for pointing out the bounty equity that is in the pot too as I had not considered that before.  My point re the number of bounties that I had captured versus the entry fee related more to my risk appetite which increases as I capture more bounties and leads me (to a degree) to play more for stacks/to-win without becoming completely reckless.  Now whether this is more or less EV I guess depends on whether I am more prone to making EV+ decisions when my risk profile is closer to its norm or higher than norm.

Logic behind the original play Shipitgood, I like the creativity and thinking behind the play and if it comes off I reckon you feel like the cat that got the cream.  I guess you just didn't think of what happens if the SB does the unexpected and that's what I love about this game...someone doing the unexpected and testing my thinking.  Although I prefer when the roles are reversed.

what would you have done if you were the SB? This got me thinking as to whether I would have the nerve to pull the trigger like the SB and what range would I need to be doing this with to make it profitable?

Given what occurred what range of hands (assuming we don't hold the 88s) would we feel happy with calling the reshove by the SB if we were the hero? So lets say we were the hero  and had made the raise without looking at our cards and hoping to take down the blinds and the limper without contest and were happy to call with any two if one of the shorties did shove...what range are happy to call the SB with when we do look at our cards?

[Disclaimers in advance:]

Disclaimers in advance:
1.   I have never posted in PHA before and am doing so here to try and develop my own game analysis as well as to try and answer your question…need to start somewhere and I guess that practice will make perfect
2.   I don’t play this high so my thoughts may not be relevant or well developed but I’ll share them for what they are worth

What would I do?
•   I would have raised but to an amount closer to 1500 as per Jezza’s suggestion
•   Similar to you I would have been reaching for my puke bucket once the SB shoves and like Jezza I’ve got to give him/her lots of credit for doing so
•   This is a spot that I have found myself in similarly and also wondered what to do and the things that I am now considering in your example are the following:
   Villain’s range: I’m guessing that you are either well ahead or well behind as opposed to being racing or well behind as he/she could do this with K2os as much as with A10+ given you still have fold equity…let’s assume that they do this with any pair, any Ace, K8+, Q8+ and some suited and unsuited connectors  say 54+ to capture a mixture of their strong and bluff/semi-bluff hands
   The pot: so there’s 15.5K effective in the pot giving us odds of 1.5:1 which if I’m correct we need to win 60% of the time to break even
   The amount of bounties that we have collected: if I had already recouped most of the £30 fee back in bounties I am free-rolling the tournament and am more likely to gamble for the win as if we win the pot we have ~25K or 40 bigs which I’m assuming puts us near the top and guarantees us being itm
   How our hand plays against their range: now I had to use some calculators here as my mental arithmetic skills and poker probability knowledge do not extend this far but: according to the holygrailofpoker’s calculator our 88s win versus one opponent with any two cards ~69% of the time and loses ~31% and using the range we assigned above our 88s win 61% of the time and loses 39%

So I guess that if in game I had the 45mins to spare that it has taken me to work this all out I would have definitely called. In play like you were I am 50:50 to call/fold and the real decider for me is the amount of bounties I have won as if I have recouped over 50% of the fee in heads then I am calling as I like to gamble and play for the win

Would appreciate some feedback on my thought process above


PS - can anyone enlighten me on how you format your posts so that you have bullet points or so that it keeps the correct formatting when pasting from word?

   Hey the diary is back and alive!  Alex take some advice from an older guy. Whatever the fall out with whoever it's not worth a can of beans in the big scheme of things. You have offered up a white flag or peace talks or whatever.........that's your bit done. Now continue with your diary for your readership.
   Last week I met a 19 yr old kid with inoperable cancer who is having his leg amputated this week and will probably not see the year out. ( check out 'Stephens's Story ' on Facebook,Twitter or Just Giving) Thats a proper issue.Not a misunderstanding about some online misinterpretations or hurt feelings.
   So get this diary back,with pictures,banter and clock ups and misunderstandings. You know it makes sense. Oh,and you better be going to Dublin.

Absolutely this.  Great advice. 

Best of luck Alex in Deauville and a belated thank you from this reader for sharing the highs and lows of your life over the last few years, it was a great read.

Many thanks Dave for the coaching and well done on the fund raising.