i want a gravy type meal with veggies

If you'd turned left out of the Hylands, walked 10 paces to the crossroads, turned left again and walked 100 paces to The Victoria Hotel, a pub adjacent to the train station, you would have missed the cobler but would have been richly rewarded with a fine spread of food cooked on the premises, and a finer selection of ales.

[CO: $52.72]

I marked this hand for review whilst I was playing, and I've gone over it a few times and I'm not sure of the best way, so I'm interested in other's thoughts.

I do think I should have 3 bet pre.
I didn't lead with the nuts on the flop as the CO has an extremely high cbet - 90% in position out of 63 hands where he's had the opportunity, so I was looking for a check-raise.    He does play tight pre-flop with at 21/17 and a CO steal of 20.

Do I have to lead the river, following through with my bet call on the turn? Or possibly check-raise the turn?  I'm not sure  he has many KT in his opening range that wouldn't bet the flop.


Party Poker $50 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players - View hand 2071000

CO: $52.72
BTN: $61.68
Hero (SB): $74.61
BB: $52.29
UTG: $17.03

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with
1 fold, CO raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($2.50) (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO raises to $8.38, Hero calls $6.38

River: ($19.26) (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Thanks for the responses.  I did call the turn, and he check-called about half pot on the river.

If he did lead the river I think I would call, not raise....  Hypothetically let's say there is no river card, given my 2 is vulnerable to any card, if he leads I can't see many people bet-calling trips here, and I am always more suspicious when the pair and single card that make the potential boat are close together as it hits player's run downs so well.

Thanks for the responses, and I guess I had an inkling that I was overplaying the turn - hence the post.  Even though in this particular instance they both folded, I'm conscious that I don't want that result to influence my future play.

The CO was bluffing, which I know he does a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised that one reason he didn't bluff the flop is because he knows it hits my SB playing range pretty well.  And I can only think the BTN had a weak made hand.

Also, pre is a very clear fold ainec || pre looks like a fold though.

 

I generally play tight from the SB and I can see that this hand can catch a lot of the low end of straights, as it did here, and it's hard to get paid with the nut flush OOP,  but I disagree that it is a clear fold.   I know the CO well and there's a good chance he will bluff two streets on many boards, so if I had the flop I will still get paid.   And I think the BTN's passivity won't cause me too much trouble.

Doh!  Quick, erase, erase.....

[BB: $48.22]

Party Poker $50 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players - View hand 2070398

SB: $57.18
BB: $48.22
UTG: $86.16
CO: $53.82
Hero (BTN): $50.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with    
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.50) (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $4, Hero calls $4, SB folds

Turn: ($12.50) (2 players)
BB bets $8.91, Hero

Only 16 hands on the villain, so nothing really useful to go on except his play in this hand.

Obviously I'm pretty much toast against 99 or J9, though he might not lead on the flop with these.

The turn card is either brilliant for me, or immaterial.  Do you ever raise the turn to represent trips looking to fold out flush draws, or is calling the right move?

[CO: $82.89]

Party Poker $50 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players - View hand 2070407

BB: $61.04
UTG: $46.43
MP: $72.27
CO: $82.89
BTN: $63.83
Hero (SB): $50.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with  
2 folds, CO raises to $1.75, BTN calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($5.75) (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($5.75) (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $5, BTN calls $5, Hero raises to $25.47

CO is very aggressive both pre and post, and opens wide  (39/30, CB 62, AG 3.17).   He has definitely adjusted versus me lately, folding to 3B pre and C/F flops.
BTN is ultra passive, though I only have 30 hands on him.  He's 59/3 with AG 0.6.

My main concern on the turn is that I think the BTN would flat KQ, he's that passive.  But I think he's just as likely to call with two pair, a low straight or a set.
I don't give CO much credence as he didn't bet the flop.

I don't think I can raise fold, and I can't fold, so I just potted to get maximum fold equity.    Thoughts?

you're point brings us onto a pretty interesting theoretical point about this hand could play as part of an overall strategy. Obviously we have to have a range of hands that calls this flop, and aside from the slow-played huge hands which we would include some% this hand KKJ8 with a bd fd is one of the best hands to call with, so a few strategical problems we run into already is that we're using one of our "better" calling hands to bluff with we could leave ourself with a pretty un-balannced calling range (actually what's very likely to happen here is our calling range could be TOO STRONG) and we'll struggle to get action on the turn. If our opponent realises we are raising these hands then our adjustment must be to raise/go with 48/T4 on the flop and our hand, Start semi-bluffing with T***+gutters and takee KKJ8 back into our calling range as it's not a hand to bet/call with OTF as we already prved but it has too much equity to be a bluff when we consider that AA dominates our opponents range.

   I've read this paragraph, along with the rest of your reply quite a few times now, and whilst I am struggling to fully grasp it I expect/hope the level of thinking you're alluding to is not required at my stakes (50PLO) but by the time I'm ready to move up I will be much more au-fait with it.  For example, I have now started to wonder if I have a un-balanced calling range, but then I also wonder if anyone at my stakes would notice.  (And now I'm getting paranoid that everyone knows this about me and dances gleefully  armed with that knowledge when I sit down..... !)

But seriously, I do find it's interesting though that your conclusion, "take KKJ8 back into our calling range as ... it has too much equity to be a bluff" is the same conclusion someone like me, a player at a lower monetary and thinking level, would come to, but you've come to it from a more involved thought process.   And I do wonder, and am genuinely interested in, to what extent in your games you think your level of thinking is necessary to be a winning player.

On the flop sizing, my thoughts were along the lines of if you want to begin your bluff now, that's fine, but your fold equity will increase more on the turn so make it smaller so that you can bet big on the turn for less, and also save some of that flop money to do it with.   I also think his flop calling range, not that I think he should have much of one, is likely to be impervious to your raise-size.

I now wonder, though, that given that he seems passive, and takes a line of bet-call, check-fold a fairly blank turn, that against this player with his likely hands, getting more dead money into the pot on the flop is a good thing.

you have odds oracle

Yes I do.  An awesome tool that I know I have only scratched the surface of so far.

[54.7664%]

I personally wouldn't complete pre-flop being out of position to 5 others with a low-ish pair and no flush potential.

I've thought about this some more wanting to justify this against Dave's clear PLO expertise over mine.

I think the problem is that 5 ways there is just too much chance that someone has an over pair, and also with the TTs being at the bottom of the rundown you are more likely to hit bottom set and a wrap rather than top set and a wrap.

Anyway, falling back on PPT with your KQ blockers there just more than 50% chance someone has a higher pair, unless you think someone would raise KK and maybe QQ pre-flop:

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.2 Professional)
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 KQTT
PLAYER_2 25%!AA
PLAYER_3 25%!AA
PLAYER_4 25%!AA
PLAYER_5 100%!AA
147198 trials (randomized)

How often do(es)
at least 1 player match hand range JJ+
54.7664% (80615)

[giving us significantly more fold equity on the flop]

Hand 1:  I personally wouldn't complete pre-flop being out of position to 5 others with a low-ish pair and no flush potential.

Any how, with that turn card and those stacks I think anyone who calls is also going to call the river so I think the best approach if you're going to take a bluff line is to look to check-raise the turn as that way the bluff has the most power and collects more money for the times it succeeds.  And also if he checks back you have a more successful bluffing opportunity on the river, probably betting the same 40 and folding to a raise?

If you are thinking of getting him off the same hand as you I think a smaller turn bet ($30?) would give you more leverage on the river.


Hand 2:  So the opponent doesn't have many TT or 88 in his range except as part of rundowns or double-pairs, and statistically therefore weighted to the rundowns, and given his propensity to limp you've got to think this time he has AA or KK, or a high rundown with 1 or 2 suits, not T8.

Against those hands and with the SB left to act I think a smaller 3B would be good - enough to get the SB to fold and enough to keep the opponent interested, and then folding to a re-raise as the best and unlikely scenario then is a KK chop.

If he calls your 3B he's not likely to love many turn cards and I guess in game this was an awful card for him and he folded?  But you can represent so many more hands on turn cards than he can, so whilst I like your flop raise I don't think it needs to be so big.

if you look at how his equity increases on each turn card

I'm not sure I go along with this.  Sure, this is how his equity increases against your hand, but not against your range of hands.

and

This graph shows us what "catorgory" of hands our opponent will have how much of the time, as you see my intial (pretty simple lets be honest) thoughts in game were correct and his range is dominated by OP's, of which will have quite stagnant equity for the most part (as in, vs an open range of hands there perceived equity will decrease on a high % of turn cards) giving us significantly more fold equity on the flop

I'm not sure I understand this.  Are you saying the opponent knows that there aren't many turn improving cards for him so if he's going to fold it will be on the flop?  Isn't the counter argument that by knowing his equity is static he'd do better by either check-raising or, actually in game, re-raising you - and hence the reason to 3B smaller?

sighs some of my best graph producing seemingly wasted

I liked an enjoyed them.  Are you aware of Quadrophobia's site (http://quadrophobia.com/) and posts on 2+2.  He really uses PPT to get deep into hand analysis.

however he is raising or re-raising most hands IP vs the whole table

Is he doing this like a maniac, ie with most hands, or just instead of over-calling when he does enter a pot?

If the former I would think about limping in - looking for one or both of the blinds to come along too.   I think this will make the hand easier to play post flop.

If the blinds do come along you could even consider a pot re-raise, just for the massive fold equity, but I agree with your later comment,  "Plenty more +ev spots in a live comp than this particular scenario", so I personally wouldn't.

As to your question about what to do on an A high flop.... If you have draws, I'd look to check-raise, if you don't you either c/f or c/r.  Sure he can have the remaining AA, but that's just PLO.

Also, to your point about going with it if you had the a broadway club rather than the  .  I don't agree with this - I think a broadway gives you more post-flop equity than pre-flop.