Final Table

[daviebhoy]

Alrighty,

Made the final table in CinCins last night. I have not played there that much and got this hand and really hesitated on how I should play it. If it was online I am sure I would of played it completely differently and wondered what the concesus is in how to deal with this spot.

I have about 20,000 chips. 170,000 in play. The two big stacks are immediatly to my right with 40,000 and 65,000 chips. Blinds are 800/1600 and it my big blind. I look down and have . There are eight left and a guy I have been on the same table with all night makes it 6,800 total from middle position. The button and small blind all fold round to me. The guy who raised has been pretty solid all night and has about 25,000 chips. His impression of me is that I have been playing like a rock most of the night apart from a few hands I played like a total maniac just before the break which left the table gasping in disbelief at how I had played the hands. I have been very tight and aggressive for the past three hours though.

I wanted to play the hand fast - if at all but I couldn't decide what was my best play here. I put him on Ax or a medium/small pair. I didn't think he would raise as much with a premium hand. So I think I am behind but not sure if he is just stealing with a marginal hand as he is a good player and knows that he should be doing that.

1) Fold - wait for a better spot and prefer to be raising instead of calling the raise.

2) Call - Take a look at the flop after committing more than 1/4 of my stack to the pot and then decide from there.

3) Re-raise - Show strength but I am committing myself to the pot with 1/2 my chips but I can't really see how either of us are getting away from this after he inevitably calls.

4) Push all-in - Make my opponent make a decision by showing strength and hoping to win the pot right there with at worst a 30% chance of winning if he has AQ. I think I have at least a 40% chance here though if not a coin flip or I may even be ahead.

[SupaMonkey]

Stop n go for me depending on how many times i have done that recently. Push if he has been regularly stealing and you have used the stop n go too many times else fold.

[boldie]

Well you say the guy has been playing pretty tight. so he probably has something that beats you.

A lot depends on whether there are others in the pot (What did the big stacks do? Did they limp from UTG and UTG+1?)

If there are others in the pot it's a definite fold for me.

Youcould reraise him I guess if there's noone else in the pot but yourself and the raiser, but I don't like to do that with a marginal hand like KQ sooted. especially as you would commit a large part of your stack to get him off the hand.

As you said he's been playing pretty tight I would probably just fold here. Give him credit for being ahead and wait. You have got plenty of chips left and there's no point commiting a large chunk of chips just cus it's your BB.

[daviebhoy]

Well you say the guy has been playing pretty tight. so he probably has something that beats you.

More solid than tight. He is capable of raising here with KJ and less hoping to take the blinds. No-one else is in the pot, it is the early stages and the big stacks are not getting involved at the moment. It is also worth mentioning five people get paid.

You could reraise him I guess if there's noone else in the pot but yourself and the raiser, but I don't like to do that with a marginal hand like KQ sooted. especially as you would commit a large part of your stack to get him off the hand.

I think I would only do this if I am pretty sure I am ahead and want to get all his chips into the middle. In this situation I am not sure I am so that is my least favourite option. I am finding the replies interesting at the moment.

dn

[daviebhoy]

Stop n go for me depending on how many times i have done that recently. Push if he has been regularly stealing and you have used the stop n go too many times else fold.

There is a part two to this. This is actually what I decided to do and it left me with another difficult decision. I called the raise and the flop came 89T rainbow. So now I have two overcards and a gutshot.

What is my play here ? I am first to act - Push, raise, check raise, check call or check fold ?

dn

[tantrum]

While i was writing this reply I would say either push or fold.

For exactly the reason that you are faced with difficult decision with on the flop and and big investment chip wise in the hand. 
I prefer to do stop and go if i have a slightly better hand then KQ or really short stacked.

If he has AQ, AK you are behind, the gut shot is long call. If you push he might call you and you are going home which he might as you said that before the break you played some maniacal hands.

If you check he might push and then you either fold or gamble.
What would you do if the flop would be Qxx, or Kxx?  It just shows that with such a stack there is not much place for playing KQ unless getting aggressive pre-flop.

[Mbuna]

I'm a bit late (looking at preflop situation) as this has moved on but

170K in play You 20k villan 25k BS1 40k bs2 65k =150k ie the other 4 players have 20k between them.

I'm folding no need to get involved here with a bigger stack.

[SupaMonkey]

That's a good point Mbuna, i hadn't done the math. It makes it more likely that this guy is trying to pound on you.

I hear people say they they want a good hand before they use the stop n go but imo this is completely the wrong way around. Preflop your oppo will have a larger calling range than post flop. So if you had A-K you want to push preflop cos he's going to call you with hands that are a lot worse than yours (your push looks like you are protecting so he won't give you credit for a very big hand). In your case you don't want a preflop call for all your chips because you aren't ahead of a lot of hands that will call you. However you oppo has a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the flop and a smaller chance than that of hitting it well. By using the stop n go you are narrowing your oppo's calling range so you want to use this manoeuvre when you don't want a call (when you are weak).

You put 1/4 of your chips in preflop so the rest go in now. 89T rainbow is great, Allin.

If it had come Kxx or Qxx then i weak lead trying to get the rest of his chips in.

[daviebhoy]

I'm a bit late (looking at preflop situation) as this has moved on but

170K in play You 20k villan 25k BS1 40k bs2 65k =150k ie the other 4 players have 20k between them.

I'm folding no need to get involved here with a bigger stack.

I think the numbers here may be a little out. I had 18,500 I think, villian had more than me - 20,000+, the big stacks may of been closer to 30,000 and 60,000 leaving the others with about 10,000 each probably. I think you are correct here. I also agree with tantrum that my options really are push or fold. With hindsight I wished I had pushed pre-flop as I think villain would of folded his K9o. I don't like the flat call at all but think I just couldn't decide how to play the hand and compromised in the end. With the stack sizes and blinds as they are I don't think I was ever getting away from this hand from that point on so I should of either stuck it all in pre-flop looking to take the pot there and then, still have a chance of doubling up and if I get through this hand my opponents see that I am prepared to defend my blinds. The only alternative should of been fold and wait for a better spot.

I think it is an interesting point about the stop'n'go but I am struggling to think I can represent hitting anything on a flop of 89T. As it turned out the flop was a nightmare for me but all the chips went in here anyway. I know I played the flop shockingly I checked and when villain raised another 5,000 which he would do holding absoutely anything in position I re-raised allin for another 7100. I thought I was behind but couldn't believe it when he turned over K9 leaving me with only 7 outs instead of 10. K on turn didn't make a difference and blank on river finished it.

dn

[tantrum]

If it had come Kxx or Qxx then i weak lead trying to get the rest of his chips in.

or go broke....

 

What i am really trying to say with this kind of stack you are really committing yourself to the pot, and especially when against similar small stack.

So effectively you have to decide pre-flop if your KQ is good to make a call with.

[SupaMonkey]

Daviebhoy, why don't you want him to call with K-9 when you have K-Q.

Also, originally the stack sizes you quoted gave him better 5-3 on the pot after your push. If you push you look weak and i would call you often in his spot (in spite of the short stacks, i'm not putting that many chips in and leaving them to rot).

However Mbuna's point was good and i think. This may cause me to fold this hand preflop and nick some blinds instead.

[daviebhoy]

Daviebhoy, why don't you want him to call with K-9 when you have K-Q.

I am not sure I understand. I would take KQ v K9 every day of the week but in this specific instance K9 was going to make two pair and win the hand! I would be happy for him to fold a large range of hands pre-flop to a push which I would hope covered lots of hands that had my KQ beat aswell because calling my all-in is going to cripple him if he lost.

dn

[SupaMonkey]

Sorry, i meant preflop.

With hindsight I wished I had pushed pre-flop as I think villain would of folded his K9o.

[daviebhoy]

Sorry, i meant preflop.

With hindsight I wished I had pushed pre-flop as I think villain would of folded his K9o.

I want hands like A9 and 66 folding here aswell so it follows that K9 would also fold. I don't mind being called by worse hands but I do mind being called by better hands. I was pretty sure he would of made it 5,000 total with a premium hand looking to get some action but not minding just taking the blinds. The 6,800 was suspicious to me and I think he may of only thought about calling a push with only one hand I am worried about and that would be AQ. I am still learning and need to trust my instincts better and not hesitate in spots in like this. The not being sure what to do was my biggest problem here and hopefully I won't make the same mistake again and will be able to decide quickly to push or fold in exactly the same spot. With the stacks as they are I think it is almost impossible to try and outplay someone on the flop after calling a raise for roughly 1/4 of both our stacks.

dn