General HU question(s)?

[SupaMonkey]

Right, after having a bad weekend (ending up a net of 16 games down and all because i wasn't betting the flop enough  ) i've gone on a mini run and won 9 of the last 10 (aaaaaayyyyyyyaaaaaaarrrrrr  ). Anyway, i have a few questions for you lot. I would appreciate any thoughts.



All of these questions are related to trying to get money/chips out of worse hands or get better hands folding.



You're HU, deep, out of position in an unraised pot, you have 10-5 (say) and the flop comes Q-5-2. You are first to act, what do you do?

My thoughts are that by betting out you are only going to get called by hands that beat you and encourage hands that you beat to fold/bluff-raise. This seems to against the general poker ethos of trying to get worse hands to call and better hands to fold. However, your hand is vulnerable and by betting out you are protecting it. I have been betting out a lot (in keeping with my betting lots of flops thing) which probably isn't the best play but is good for my image (honestly, i would bet out with top 2 pr, it's amazing how many times you get called). Anyway i'm not sure if this is the best play.

Say you check and your oppo now bets, what do you do? I don't like the check raise here because for the reasons given in the first paragraph. Say you call, you're almost surely going to get another overcard, are you check calling again on the turn and then again on the river?



How do your answers change if you have the same cards and flop falls Q-9-5? Possibly a check raise on the flop gets rid of your oppo if he holds a 9 and check-check isn't a bad result. If it does go check-check are you trying to take the pot down on the turn?

Finally if you have position, would you bet/raise the flop in either of these two instances or let a card peel off. Generally i find that if someone checks to you twice they have pretty much given up on the pot and you can take it down (or they are very weak and can be forced out, see last paragraph). Hence, I tend to bet the turn rather than allow a free draw in these situations.



I guess i'm confused because i'm trying to find a balance between trying to get chips from worse hands but protecting my vulnerable hands. Sometimes it is very difficult to find out where you are at without shoving a bet in the pot. I realise this is a hard post to answer but it would really help me.

Thanks.

[boldie]

OK in HU a lot for me depends on my opponent. At the beginning I have established (I ALWAYS do this) a tight image. this ussually take no more then 4 hands against most opponents. (A lot of checking, folding pre-flop when you have rubbish..why not give him the blinds when they are small?)

For me the advantage to that is that they believe me when I raise first. So I have 2 options in your first scenario,

you have 10-5 (say) and the flop comes Q-5-2..

In this one I could lead out. why not? I've hit the flop and odds are he hasn't...that's the thing to remember HU..only 66% of the time will one of you actually hit the flop. I think it's something like 1 in 3 that you hit it but some statistician might prove (disprove) that later on

You are not only going to get called by hands that beat you, in HU missing the flop if you still have an ace (or any over card..or even nothing) is not a bad thing for someone who already established a table image. This is because you yourself don't necessarily have the queen and you would lead out with any part of the flop. (in keeping with your betting lots of flops thing). Now when you don't have the queen. (as here) a call kind off scares you..."Oh he might be slowplaying something, what to do on the turn?" If you then check the turn (which is a valid play) oppo knows you most likely have part of the flop but not the queen..and can therefore bet it and get you to fold.
If oppo re-raises you on the flop, he doesn't need to have the queen to do that. Just a decent high card and good table image.
If you have established a decent table image in the first few hands (or even better a few games against the same player) and he/she is scared of you already betting out definetly works.

What I prefer in this scenario is the check raise. this however is MUCH more likely to work if he raised pre-flop or also raises a lot of flops. If your opponent does not raise pre-flop and is fairly "tight" (for a HU player) you lead out. if he bets a lot you can re-raise. He is MUCH more likely to have missed the flop (% wise) but because he bet it pre-flop you are likely to think he has a hand. check-raising him tells him "don't mess with me I will beat you soo hard, I'll bend you over and make it hurt for the rest of the game untill I have all your chips and you can go cry to your mommy" If he calls..you bet the turn..if he doesn't have the best hand then he is most likely to fold there and then.

In the second scenario I tend to lead out. You have bottom pair and your opponent is still more likely to have missed it but why would he risk you actually having it on the flop to hit something on the turn and river? It depends on the opponent though as this mainly works with someone who either doesn't play HU a lot or is tight and has enough chips to make the fold. Check raising is fine of course but again that depends on a few things. A; Is your opponent likely to have bet this with anything higher then the 9? (If I have the queen with a high kicker I won't bet this if I have position) B; Can he still lay down the 9 after he bet it? C: Has he made other laydowns? and have you done this on him a few times (maybe shown him the better hand)? D; Does he still have enough chips to make the fold.? A lot of people make the mistake of putting moves on people that are already down to their final few chips who are essentially giving up on the game or simply pot commited. this can lead to cheap double ups and you have to start over again with the grinding down of your opponent.
If it goes check check and we are deep into the tourney (blinds getting fairly high compared to chipstack etc. I have a stab at the turn. If he raises you can always fold your bottom pair) If the blinds are still low I might check call if the raise isn't too much just to see what he plays with.

In position I tend to check in the second situation. From position you are right..let them peel off the turn, you only have bottom pair..why risk losing loads of chips on a check raise? Take it down when/if he checks the turn again.

In the first situation I would probably bet it, somewhat depending on my opponent I might even reraise him here. (If he's lose and I've raised pre-flop for instance..or just if he's lose)

When to get your chips in depends a lot on the sort of opponent you are playing.
did you notice a difference in the opponents you were playing in the last 10 games compared to the first 16? Or is it just your bgame that mainly changed?

Hope it helps...fire away if it doesn't (or if it does my friend)

[Horneris]

Great analysis there Boldie as always.

I have been playing a lot of Heads Ups recently, mainly the $20+1 ones on Pokerstars, and heres my answer to your first question with the 10-5 scenario.

With the first one, id agree with you here, I'd possibly just check, as you will be only be called by hands that have you beat, and if he checks then your happy to see another card, but if he bets, id either call or re-raise, depeding on his and your table image (as noted by Boldie). Id prefer just to call in this particular situation though as this means im not forced to make an aggressive continuation bet on the turn, if another higher cards comes out, which lets face it, probably will.
Then on the turn, you can analyse what your next action is.

With your 2nd question, i think id be looking at a check-fold scenario for me. Im just not happy enough with bottom pair with a 10 kicker to continue in the hand. Id rather wait for the button the next hand. Raise if my cards are in any way strong and take down more pots further down the road.

With the 3rd Question, in position, i would raise if the flop was Q 5 2 and i held 10 5, but in the instance of the second flop id probably check, and let another card peel off hoping to make two pair, trips etc.

Im just not going to get that involved with bottom pair in a HU match.

I try and play Heads Up, using pre flop aggression which i guess is fairly standard and i guess youll know all about that anyway.
i.e. with the button, raise with most hands, but fold if my hand is absoluely awful. Then if he checks, raise on the flop, or if he bets, usually re raise occassionally fold.
I wont do this as much out of position but i dont mind opening the pot pre flop and then leading out anyway, as again in the majority of instances your opponent will fold.
I have found raising pre flop with any suited connectors to be quite profitable Heads Up, as your opponents uually put you on high cards.

[boldie]

I have found raising pre flop with any suited connectors to be quite profitable Heads Up, as your opponents uually put you on high cards.

Horneris raises an important point here.

In my opinion sooted connectors are just about the holy grail of HU play. Aces are great don't get me wrong but Sooted connectors are just fandabidosy. I always tend to raise with them. Not because I necesarily have the best hand pre-flop but  I have the most outs pre-flop.
Also raising with them might trick your oppo into thinking you've got a high Ace, so when the flop comes down 4-5-6 rainbow..he won't put you on the 6-7. 5-7 or 7-8. But you do either have the made straight or a pair and the open ender in this situation.
So when you then lead out on the flop he is MUCH more likely to go for the steal and re-raise you thinking you've missed.
Say you have the open ender;

Depending on your opponent you can then do three things.

1; Get your chips in the middle there and then and say to yourself "I've got a part of this flop and he probably doesn't, and if he does I could still make my straight."
If he was just going for the reraise (steal) he would fold there and then. (and like I said, if not you have outs..or might be ahead with a higher pair) This is especially nice with the agressive opponents and calling stations. It is amazing how often you will see someone calling in the following situation.

You

Oppo

You raised pre flop, he calls.

Flop

You lead out, he reraises. You shove them in...he calls.

I can already hear people think "Why does he call? He only has bottom pair. Surely he is a muppet?" Not neccesarily. It's because you tricked him into thinking you've got the high cards. And he's thinking, "My arse sunshine, you don't have a part of this flop, you've got the old AK and your King doesn't play anymore so you've only got the Ace to beat me with".

It is BY FAR the most beautifull play in poker in my opinion getting someone to call for all his chips/money with a hand like that HU. Of course he should know better, he only has bottom pair. BUT his reasoning would be sound against 90% of the HU players out there. They would (and Lord knows I've seen this) still shove with their AK after this flop and against those it's a fair play to call with this rag hand that he's got.
And after a play like this people tend to get either pissed off with you or scared of you (the stupid ones get pissed off with you and think they are much better then you etc, the smarter ones will tread more carefull around you as they uderstand what you've just done to them) Either way is good.
HU is MUCH more about psychology then normal tourney play is (online as well)

2; You can check/call it and give your opponent a shot at betting it first. I don't like to do this that much as he might not do so. (especially tight players) but then again..if the high card comes down on the turn (as opposed to the one making your straight) he is more likely to think you've got it. So you can still bet it if it does.

3; Check raising (not all -in). Yes check raising is all well and good but the problem is that you give him the edge here. You've raised pre-flop so he takes you for high cards. They are not on the flop, so when you check raise the only thing he'll think about is high pocket pair. (The first thing to come into peoples minds when you bet like this pre-flop and still check raise on the flop) the second thing (and the one he'll probably stick with) is that you're a thieving bastard trying to steal his pot and he'll shove. Unless you are willing to call for all your chips (a big difference between calling and raising for all your chips I think you'll agree) you can not check raise here IMO. (To be honest I'd call the all-in against most opponents with a hand like this on this board, as I would also push with it)

Sooted connectors rule supreme as you can represent the high cardwith them and they give you more outs then any other hand pre-flop. If the high card comes down on the flop (say the ace) you can bet it as the opponent already takes you for the Ace. if the low flop comes down (and you actually have some part of it) you can bet it and he'll pay you off more often then not.

The above is all described as if you're out of position, but essentially goes for in position as well. (and I am rather lazy today so won't re-write the whole thing for in position

[Horneris]

Fantastic. And i agree. 

[SupaMonkey]

Boldie and Horneris, those responses are fantastic. Thankyou.

[boldie]

Boldie and Horneris, those responses are fantastic. Thankyou.

no worries my friend..any time.

[SupaMonkey]

With the first one, id agree with you here, I'd possibly just check, as you will be only be called by hands that have you beat, and if he checks then your happy to see another card, but if he bets, id either call or re-raise, depeding on his and your table image (as noted by Boldie). Id prefer just to call in this particular situation though as this means im not forced to make an aggressive continuation bet on the turn, if another higher cards comes out, which lets face it, probably will.
Then on the turn, you can analyse what your next action is.

This is the line i was taking at the weekend and i was losing. If i were in his position and my oppo check called and then checked the turn, i would defiintely fire again even with rags. The problem is that at some point i think you have to make a play which is going to get better hands calling and worse hands folding. Otherwise what are you going to do? If you check call him down to the river, he could have had the best hand all the time, he could get lucky or you could win. Overall this seems like a losing play to me. With these sorts or marginal hands, I think a check call and then a strong turn lead could be a good play. This may get some better hands out (particularly if you only have bottom pair) but also, once the pot has been built it seems less important to worry about getting worse hands folding etc. but more important to take the pot. What do you think?

[boldie]

With the first one, id agree with you here, I'd possibly just check, as you will be only be called by hands that have you beat, and if he checks then your happy to see another card, but if he bets, id either call or re-raise, depeding on his and your table image (as noted by Boldie). Id prefer just to call in this particular situation though as this means im not forced to make an aggressive continuation bet on the turn, if another higher cards comes out, which lets face it, probably will.
Then on the turn, you can analyse what your next action is.

This is the line i was taking at the weekend and i was losing. If i were in his position and my oppo check called and then checked the turn, i would defiintely fire again even with rags. The problem is that at some point i think you have to make a play which is going to get better hands calling and worse hands folding. Otherwise what are you going to do? If you check call him down to the river, he could have had the best hand all the time, he could get lucky or you could win. Overall this seems like a losing play to me. With these sorts or marginal hands, I think a check call and then a strong turn lead could be a good play. This may get some better hands out (particularly if you only have bottom pair) but also, once the pot has been built it seems less important to worry about getting worse hands folding etc. but more important to take the pot. What do you think?

yes that's why I don't advise the check call on the flop in the first situation (you with middle pair) you CAN check call it but only if you bet the turn. Check calling all the way through doesn't work with a hand like that, he will probably bet the turn..and then the river and before you know it most of your chips are gone. you have to show strenght at some stage during  a hand or you will not take it down against a decent player. the only way you can check call everything is if your opponent raised pre-flop (say 160) and you called...then you have a 320 pot and he keep betting 20's and 40's into it. (I have seen some people do it with AK on flops like this and if they miss..ussually the worse players) you can't give a hand uyp cheaply like that if you have a part of the flop. But if you are up against a half decent player who will make you pay to see the river and then get to showdown..you have to show strenght at some stage or you'll do your chips in.

[KeithyB]

Boldie and Horneris, those responses are fantastic. Thankyou.

      Fantastic and fascinating analysis here and all presentated in a very clear way too.  Huge thanks to all of you for taking the time and effort to post on this thread.  A very educating read indeed.