Can't think of a subject heading

[happybhoy]

I've not posted on the board before so please be gentle.

I can't exactly remember the number of people involved pre-flop but back-
calculating I think it's right but I've put question marks next to the 2 I'm not
sure about.

I've got somewhere in the range of 10k-12k blinds are (I think) 200/400 and I'm
on the button. 1 pass, 1 call(?) and a reraise to 1200. 2 (possibly 3) calls before
it reaches me. So I make that (200,400,400?,1200,1200,1200?) anywhere between
3000-4500 in the pot and I've got A4s with 2/3 players still to act behind me. I
don't see that I'd call at the lower range of my guesstimate so I suspect it was
in the higher range and that would tally with guesstimates I made later. Even so
I don't think I'm getting the right odds to call at approximugly 4-1. Can I
justify calling here? (my justification was 'implied odds', but I always use
that when I'm not getting the odds and fancy calling anyways).

The flop comes 356 rainbow(1 club, my suit). Checked round to the guy on my
right who moves all-in for 3300. I don't believe he is particularly strong, with
what was in the pot pre-flop when it came round to him and the chips he has, I
figure he would push with any strong hands AA/AK/KK/QQ/JJ and possibly TT/AQ. I
call pretty quickly as I like the position. I didn't try figuring out all the
maths but I know I've got 8 outs that will beat anything he has (I reckon he's
made a small pair, but if I hit I can beat trips if he started with 33,55,66
which I'd class as possible), guesstimating 32% chance here (using odds * 4 on
the flop), the pot - if say 8000 plus change is close the the right odds I
reckon. BUT I haven't taken any consideration of the players still to act which
include the original early position raiser. Definately a mistake and sure enough
he moves all-in for another 4 - 4.5k. I counted that there was at least 16k plus
a big bunch of change at this point and the raiser said 'If you've got aces go
for it' as he pushed which made me think I might have another 3 outs. So I
reckon I have to call here and I do.

The result is immaterial here, my decision facing the 3300 bet on the flop is
the crunch one (although I could also accept that I shouldn't have been in this
hand at all). The original raiser pointed out after that I didn't even look at
him before I made my decision and as I say I didn't pay any thought to those
still to act but I did know I had them covered and I can't see a sequence of
actions behind me that I don't call if I stick the 3000 in there. Am I wrong
here or did I do the right thing for the wrong reasons? Or the wrong thing entirely?

All comments welcome

[JungleCat03]

I think preflop at 10% it's a little too much of your stack to call with a hand that is most likely dominated given the action preceding you(stick with 74 next time - look how it turned out!)

There are obviously some implied odds for when you make your flush/ straight but there are also some reverse implied odds as well such as when you hit your ace and lose chips to a bigger ace.

As played, the size of the pot sucks you into your draw. When the guy moves in, you know your straight draw is good and the ace may well be good too. He's betting 3.3k into a 5.7k (i think?) pot so you're getting the odds to draw.

This is where it's difficult i think. Do you move in to isolate or not? Given that the preflop raiser checked the flop, it's not unreasonable to put him on something like AQ AK AJ so I wouldn't have been concerned about him check raising (moron-cat) but  by watching his reaction to the flop you may have got an idea of whether he liked it or not.

I think flat calling is ok as quite often people seem to play passively in live comps and may just check call with things like /9s, giving you free cards to draw. Plus the value of your draw rises the more players contribute to the pot. As played you have to call his check raise as you are supremely priced in.

I think the preflop call puts you in the position of having to make difficult decisions in a multiway pot post flop though and it's often good in poker to make your decisions easier rather than harder. (although the superlags would mock the rocky cat for saying that)

Did you hit your draw and get a pint chucked over you by the EP raiser with AA?

[happybhoy]

When I say I used implied odds to justify pre-flop I think 'as an excuse' would
be a better phrase. Implied odds has always stuck me as a bit of a black art and
I only consider it as a last resort in a tight decision and I can honestly say
the closest I've come to reverse implied odds is when I glossed over that
section in Harringtons book. I like your point about a small bad decision
putting me in a position I don't want to be in. By the time the 2nd and 3rd call
has gone in I'm thinking 'nearly there', but another way of looking at it is
'not there'.

 I did hit my draw on the river and he had QQ. Thankfully he didn't have a pint to
 hand at the time but did reckon my call (post-flop) was a bad one but I wasn't
 sure.

[AlexMartin]

I mean in this in the nicest possible way but you have made these questions very difficult to answer by dropping in gems of insignificance all over the shop. But i'll cut to the chase and hopefully you'll understand a couple of bits and bobs by the end of my spiel.


OK, ill sort out your issues m8. A4s is not really a hand you want to be getting involved with for 10% of your stack even if the POT ODDS (as you say it looks like 4-1) are favourable.  You are almost certainly up against a dominating hand in the form of a higher ace. By calling preflop you are making a compound error, meaning that any further decisions will harder because of this original mistake. THIS IS EXACTLY on of those situations. But if you fancy a punt,  i guess you do have position and you are getting a good price.

On the flop he bets 3300 into a pot of you say 5k. Now you are not getting the correct price to draw to an open ended str8 draw, but you do probably have additional outs in the form of the aces. The guy has gone ALL-IN so you dont have any implied odds from him. Up against the ladies you have a 41% chance of winning, AK a 42% chance and a set, a 25% chance. Download pokerstove for easily accesible odds calculation.

Implied odds simply means the POTENTIAL amount of money/chips you could make if a draw/hand comes good. For example in a cash game you have pocket 3's and $200 infront of you, the same as your opponent who sadly for him has pocket aces. He raises to $10 to play. Now your hand is a 7.5-1 dog to him, BUT you have 20-1 IMPLIED odds in the form of the fact that if you hit your 3 you are quite likely to stack the guy. Implied odds are useful in deepstacked poker, not endgame tournament dynamics.

On the flop i like the flat call. Your hand has got you in the shit but i dont see how you can pass given the favourable situation. You are not going to beat the original bettor without hitting and most likely when you hit you will beat any other players also involved. Assuming that he has you beat on the flop (very likely) you are losing value by moving in as you are squeezing out other players. To maximise the value of your hand you should encourage more action from other players in order to improve your pot odds and actually manipulate the pot odds for your drawing hand in your favour. Once you call you cannot pass.

But the main point i have for you son is go buy some books and read up. Get your fundamentals sound and dont play hands which bleed chips off like raggy suited aces, especially to a raise.

Gd luck at the tables.

[happybhoy]

Cheers for taking the time to reply, it's appreciated and yeah I can prattle on a bit but for my first post I didn't want to fall into the mistake of not posting enough information so I wanted to get in everything I could remember. Thought it would be a good exercise for me as well but I'll to keep it tighter in future.

Both you and Rob have pointed out the fatal mistake was preflop and I know calling in these spots without the requisite pot odds is bad but I'd always assumed this was because what your paying in preflop calls isn't covered by what you win when you hit. But I guess I need to be thinking about what I'm also losing when I get into tricky spots and feck up. I'll mull that over.

Glad to see I didn't do anything horribly wrong after the flop. It seemed to stack up at the time but I'm a bit lazy with the maths although I'm trying to make a conscious effort to improve this.

But the main point i have for you son is go buy some books and read up. Get your fundamentals sound and dont play hands which bleed chips off like raggy suited aces, especially to a raise.

Oh dear, bought them and read them... maybe time to break them out again.

Cheers and gl on Monday btw