bottom pair and openend v and over bet shove

[Ironside]

seat 2 had been active and open folding alot so i was hoping to get a few checky 3 bets through but while i was distracted sseat 2 had changed  and i have no read on this new guy
now i have hit this flop but he shoves  do i just get out the way?



PokerStars Game #50509141006: Tournament #333010516, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2010/10/02 21:34:57 WET [2010/10/02 16:34:57 ET]
Table '333010516 620' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: ih8pcktjacks (10798 in chips)
Seat 2: zungzvang (10490 in chips)
Seat 3: bigjbecker (68788 in chips)
Seat 4: Ss_Homer_sS (8450 in chips)
Seat 5: Twigglet (45120 in chips)
Seat 6: AndieKnete (9115 in chips)
Seat 7: Ironside (18785 in chips)
Seat 8: ovvi11 (4250 in chips)
Seat 9: rosiu.1. (16340 in chips)
ih8pcktjacks: posts the ante 25
zungzvang: posts the ante 25
bigjbecker: posts the ante 25
Ss_Homer_sS: posts the ante 25
Twigglet: posts the ante 25
AndieKnete: posts the ante 25
Ironside: posts the ante 25
ovvi11: posts the ante 25
rosiu.1.: posts the ante 25
ovvi11: posts small blind 150
rosiu.1.: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ironside [ ]
ih8pcktjacks: folds
zungzvang: raises 450 to 750
bigjbecker: folds
Ss_Homer_sS: folds
Twigglet: folds
AndieKnete: folds
Ironside: raises 1350 to 2100
ovvi11: folds
rosiu.1.: folds
zungzvang: calls 1350
*** FLOP *** [ ]
zungzvang: bets 8365 and is all-in

[DMorgan]

Really not a good spot to be 3betting light imo due to stack sizes and this is really gross. I can see him showing up with a lot of stuff. AJ, KJ type hands here which we're doing great against, Tx hands and QJ that we're pretty much flipping against and then the gross spots when he has better 8x hands. There are going to be some of those in his range aswell since he's obv terrible.

I probably just let it go

[silverslick]

fold

[Rod]

I am not exactly great at tournaments (currently trying to improve) and usually don't comment on tournament hands so you should probably ignore me, here is my take on this hand but I am commenting more because I am also interested in what you should do here without reads and where I am going wrong in my thinking.

Preflop they have made a raise from reasonably early position. The pot with just the blinds and antes is 675. The raise 750 is fairly standard so they could have quite a wide range of hands although as I don't have a read I am thinking they might be quite strong. The pot is now 1425 and we make a raise to 2100 and they call. OK I think AA, KK and QQ all 4-Bet here and AK probably does as well so take those out of the range (yes they could be playing them tricky but probably isn't). All other pairs are at least possible though as well as hands a like AQ, AJ, KQ etc.

The flop actually hits us quite hard and we have a pot of 5625. They have 8365 chips left and shove so we have to call 8365 to win 13990. What could have have shoved with?

I can't see a str8 in his range
I don't think he shove a set he, although we have repped a possible big pair so he might - unlikely though
I don't believe two pair is that big of a part of his range
Better eights do not seem that likely either

It is actually really hard for us to be crushed here isn't it? I would not be surprised to see two overs or one pair, which we are doing fine against. I generally don't like calling chips off as I much prefer to be shoving them but he the equity might just be good enough.

I still have enough chips to play if I lose and I am probably more than less 50/50 again his range.

I am calling this, I am very confident in a cash game (although it would only happen against a short stacker) this call in +EV not sure how much this changes in a tournament.

Why is the opponent obviously terrible?

[StuartHopkin]

Dont know if I manage it in practice but think this is a fold.

Rod, I assume Dan suggests he is terrible due to the size of his flop bet.

3k would be the sensible amount to bet on the flop whatever hand he has.

[Rod]

Dont know if I manage it in practice but think this is a fold.

Rod, I assume Dan suggests he is terrible due to the size of his flop bet.

3k would be the sensible amount to bet on the flop whatever hand he has.

OK

But shouldn't be be worried about exactly the type of hand we have (given that board)? If he bets 3K I assume Ironside shoves on him (Yes? No?) and then if he has a hand like A-10 or JJ for example he has to call off for his tournament life in not a great spot? By shoving we at least have to consider the fold? From his point of view do we really want a showdown here?

Unless he has a set (or the very unlikely J-8) he wants us to fold doesn't he?

[StuartHopkin]

Dont know if I manage it in practice but think this is a fold.

Rod, I assume Dan suggests he is terrible due to the size of his flop bet.

3k would be the sensible amount to bet on the flop whatever hand he has.

OK

But shouldn't be be worried about exactly the type of hand we have (given that board)? If he bets 3K I assume Ironside shoves on him (Yes? No?) and then if he has a hand like A-10 or JJ for example he has to call off for his tournament life in not a great spot? By shoving we at least have to consider the fold? From his point of view do we really want a showdown here?

Unless he has a set (or the very unlikely J-8) he wants us to fold doesn't he?

Oh dear, Im not the most technical player, or even a good player. So take my answers with caution as someone maywell come and rip me to pieces.

By shoving like that he is ensuring he folds out all worse hands and gets called by all the hands that beat him. Obv theyre may be a few exceptions to that but the idea is there.

If he has A10 or JJ then its better to make it 3k, Iron's shoving range should be slighly wider than his calling range therefore meaning villain is in better shape.
He doesnt need to worry about calling off with either of those hands, the size of the pot means he should be trying to get his money in.

[Rod]

Dont know if I manage it in practice but think this is a fold.

Rod, I assume Dan suggests he is terrible due to the size of his flop bet.

3k would be the sensible amount to bet on the flop whatever hand he has.

OK

But shouldn't be be worried about exactly the type of hand we have (given that board)? If he bets 3K I assume Ironside shoves on him (Yes? No?) and then if he has a hand like A-10 or JJ for example he has to call off for his tournament life in not a great spot? By shoving we at least have to consider the fold? From his point of view do we really want a showdown here?

Unless he has a set (or the very unlikely J-8) he wants us to fold doesn't he?

Oh dear, Im not the most technical player, or even a good player. So take my answers with caution as someone maywell come and rip me to pieces.

By shoving like that he is ensuring he folds out all worse hands and gets called by all the hands that beat him. Obv theyre may be a few exceptions to that but the idea is there.

If he has A10 or JJ then its better to make it 3k, Iron's shoving range should be slighly wider than his calling range therefore meaning villain is in better shape.
He doesnt need to worry about calling off with either of those hands, the size of the pot means he should be trying to get his money in.

Yep, that makes sense - understand better now - I think :-)

[silverslick]

You are only beating a bluff and if you call they could have outs so fold. Once you have raised not noticing the change in seat accept the mistake and move on. You would still have plenty of chips left. For the guy putting you all in he is risking 8k approx to win the 4k in the pot and could be taking a chance with broadway cards. It is half your stack to find out though.