KK, awkward turn spot.

[pleno1]

Ok, so stack sizes are super important, in multiway limped pots there is always somebody who either tries to squeeze a hand he should 100% flat pre and sometimes a 50bb stack who decides to shove, UTG should have strongish range but don't want hi to hero fold as we look ridic strong here and we are much more likely to play a heads up pot vs him in position where he will probably c/f the turn a huge amount of time, as 3betting utg+1 and barrelling just looks ridic and we should never ever have a bluff range here in a live 100nl game imo.

also if we think UTG is quite strong then  if somebody does decide to jam then he can overjam alot of the time with like 88+ aj+ where he folds a huge part of tht range when we 3bet.

being able to put £4 in middle to try and get a good scenario and being able to avoid a bad scenario (stacking off with kings on 998 multiway) is important in live cash, i see so many ppl flat aces pre in spots they should def 3bet and then put 100bigs in 4 handed on super coordinated boards vs passive villains who are showing alot of strength.

[rbc_mike]

Yeh I agree that three-betting utg raiser does look pretty damn strong, but in a 50p/£1 game, I'm pretty sure people will peel pocket pairs, suited connectors and aces that they should fold to the three bet (AT, AJ, AQ) for £15.  Is not three betting just missing out on value from these hands?

Should point out that me, utg villain and Sean were having a joke about how everyone raises light utg, and there had been a dynamic between us of three-betting one another's utg raises.  Villain utg looked at me after raising utg and commented 'you should make it 15 here', to which I begrudgingly happily obliged. His range utg will be wider than the average player's imo.  Whilst this meta-game element isn't that influential on the hand by the turn (don't think the other two people in the hand had heard us talking), it's worth baring in mind.

With regards to the turn, are we all pretty much in agreement that an 'arr iiinnn' is the best move?

[cambridgealex]

also if we think UTG is quite strong then  if somebody does decide to jam then he can overjam alot of the time with like 88+ aj+ where he folds a huge part of tht range when we 3bet.

eh? with dynamic he's not folding 88+Aj+ to a 3bet ever.

ppl in these games aren't as squeezy as you might think. If everyone behind can see a flop for £4 they're happy. even with no history/dynamic, flatting with KK here would be a terrible mistake imo.

with the dynamic mike described, it's not even remotely close to being anything other than a 3bet.

[mulhuzz]

i guess at the £1/£2 game that runs flatting to induce squeeze is obv much more profitable.

pads: Gala with a table full of spaniards - you raising? of course you are. same applies here imo.

[cambridgealex]

i guess at the £1/£2 game that runs flatting to induce squeeze is obv much more profitable.

pads: Gala with a table full of spaniards - you raising? of course you are. same applies here imo.

agreed

[mulhuzz]

and as ever, until they give you a reason to deviate from level one thinking, don't.

be happy to be that guy who nits it up, value bets correctly (maybe even not thinly enough) and folds correctly. you know the guy. the one who wins.

[cambridgealex]

and as ever, until they give you a reason to deviate from level one thinking, don't.

be happy to be that guy who nits it up, value bets correctly (maybe even not thinly enough) and folds correctly. you know the guy. the one who wins.

nah i hate that guy.

[rbc_mike]

Think it's a pretty unanimous decision that we are three betting KK pre given the lineup and dynamics.

I posted the PHA more for the turn line check.

I put the villain in for his last £124 into a pot of £141 with  on  .
I thought this was the best line, with sets/big combos probs c-r flop given stack sizes/wanting to see two streets rather than c-c, c-f turn.

Would anyone do anything different?

[SuuPRlim]

Ok, so stack sizes are super important, in multiway limped pots there is always somebody who either tries to squeeze a hand he should 100% flat pre and sometimes a 50bb stack who decides to shove, UTG should have strongish range but don't want hi to hero fold as we look ridic strong here and we are much more likely to play a heads up pot vs him in position where he will probably c/f the turn a huge amount of time, as 3betting utg+1 and barrelling just looks ridic and we should never ever have a bluff range here in a live 100nl game imo.

also if we think UTG is quite strong then  if somebody does decide to jam then he can overjam alot of the time with like 88+ aj+ where he folds a huge part of tht range when we 3bet.

being able to put £4 in middle to try and get a good scenario and being able to avoid a bad scenario (stacking off with kings on 998 multiway) is important in live cash, i see so many ppl flat aces pre in spots they should def 3bet and then put 100bigs in 4 handed on super coordinated boards vs passive villains who are showing alot of strength.

couldn't agree more.

still 3betting here though.

[Leedszilla]

Ok, so stack sizes are super important, in multiway limped pots there is always somebody who either tries to squeeze a hand he should 100% flat pre and sometimes a 50bb stack who decides to shove, UTG should have strongish range but don't want hi to hero fold as we look ridic strong here and we are much more likely to play a heads up pot vs him in position where he will probably c/f the turn a huge amount of time, as 3betting utg+1 and barrelling just looks ridic and we should never ever have a bluff range here in a live 100nl game imo.

also if we think UTG is quite strong then  if somebody does decide to jam then he can overjam alot of the time with like 88+ aj+ where he folds a huge part of tht range when we 3bet.

being able to put £4 in middle to try and get a good scenario and being able to avoid a bad scenario (stacking off with kings on 998 multiway) is important in live cash, i see so many ppl flat aces pre in spots they should def 3bet and then put 100bigs in 4 handed on super coordinated boards vs passive villains who are showing alot of strength.

Never played the 50/1 at DTD, but played numerous others and have yet to find one where the players are sufficiently squeezey to justify flatting here, and can only think of a select few 1/2 games. Definitely think you give the players involved 1000% too much credit.

Rather than, "I look so strong here if I reshove that 3bettor might pass AK/QQ and button is super light so if I reshove AJ/88 I get folds enough of the time to make it profitable."

He's much more likely to be thinking, "AJ is a good hand and it's only 11 more."

[Leedszilla]

Think it's a pretty unanimous decision that we are three betting KK pre given the lineup and dynamics.

I posted the PHA more for the turn line check.

I put the villain in for his last £124 into a pot of £141 with  on  .
I thought this was the best line, with sets/big combos probs c-r flop given stack sizes/wanting to see two streets rather than c-c, c-f turn.

Would anyone do anything different?

I'm not completely sure why we're shoving, the only argument for shoving is if villain is terrible enough to stick it all in with combo draws because draws are fun, or 10x or worse because he thinks we're bluffing. By betting 124 I think we fold out a lot of the hands we'd like to get value from, K10, Q10 etc.

If we make it say 85 I think these hands call a lot more often and get the last 44 in on the river. And even if we're up against a big draw, say  (he clearly doesn't have this, but for illustrative purposes) then the Maths is as follows if he plays at all well:

Bet £124, he always passes, EV +141.

Bet 85, he always calls:

73% win 226,
27% lose (85 + 39 reluctantly stack off on river) = lose 124

EV +131

So even against the worst possible hand for us to be up against it's only mildly worse than shoving and we get way more value from 10x hands and lesser draws that would fold for 124.

I realise this play looks super strong, so much so that good players are more likely to call 124 than 85, but against the quality of players in a 50/1 game I think 85 is more profitable. 

[rbc_mike]

I'm not completely sure why we're shoving,

Not sure betting 85 > betting 124, because if I was bluffing, I would always be shoving here. I swear these are spots where people like to assign villains AK/AQ type of hands and hero it off with a ten.  Surely we just make our hand look ridiculously strong by not shoving.  Also, as I mentioned in OP, the villain concerned here is tilting having just lost quite a big pot. Really don't think he's going to see much difference between 85 and 124.

I don't want to sigh call off another 44 on the river when the three flush or ten gets there, might as well get it in now?

[Leedszilla]

I'm not completely sure why we're shoving,

Not sure betting 85 > betting 124, because if I was bluffing, I would always be shoving here. I swear these are spots where people like to assign villains AK/AQ type of hands and hero it off with a ten.  Surely we just make our hand look ridiculously strong by not shoving.  Also, as I mentioned in OP, the villain concerned here is tilting having just lost quite a big pot. Really don't think he's going to see much difference between 85 and 124.

I don't want to sigh call off another 44 on the river when the three flush or ten gets there, might as well get it in now?

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the sigh call off on the river, there's simply no river card you can pass for 44 so it's hardly like you're going to be in a tough spot. And I agree people like to hero it off with 10x or worse here, so I'm keen to make it as easy for them as possible, which I think 85 as opposed to 124 into 144 does. I think a tilting player is much more likely to call 60% of the pot without thinking and then unthinkingly put the rest in on the river than he is to snap of 85% of the pot. To my mind he's going to see 124 as a much bigger decision than 85.

I also agree it looks ridiculously strong, but that's to somebody who's actually thought through the hand, as opposed to the standard .50/1 player who's also tilting. Definite use of 'assume awful until shown otherwise' maxim. That said, if he was tilted so bad he got the chunk in with  then WP.

[rbc_mike]

Yeh I see what you're saying. Perhaps I'm being results based because when I shoved I was met with a snap call.  He proudly tables the old  for the turned straight, and I'm drawing dead.

Perhaps the best part of the hand was the snap hit and run, at least he didn't try any excuses, literally grabbed a tray and left. Nice.