400nl turn

[pleno1]

villain is aggro, not much other reads but he is aggressive post and pre flop

MP: $257.30
CO: $509.40
BTN: $303.00
SB: $663.30
BB: $463.00
Hero (UTG): $471.00

SB posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $6.00) Hero has

Hero raises to $12.00, fold, fold, BTN calls $12.00, fold, fold

Flop: ($30.00, 2 players)
Hero bets $22.00, BTN calls $22.00

Turn: ($74.00, 2 players)
Hero ?

[pleno1]

what are we doing and why?

[Pugwashed]

I think I'd bet again, it seems like he can have a bunch of pair + gutshot hands that can call again and he can only have 1 combo of JTs as you / the board block the rest and I'd assume he's not flatting JTo pre. It does really suck if he's gonna turn his pair+gutshots into bluffs a lot, especially ones that now have flush draws as well but if I really felt like he was gonna do that a lot I might bet/call turn and end up calling good rivers too (fwiw I'm a massive station and if I'm not sure what to do I typically just end up clicking call so this might be whats going on here). It might depend on how likely I thought he was to raise sets on the flop or whether I thought he was more likely to 3b 56s/76s rather than flat pre

[PaintingByNumbers]

Check/Call Turn.
Bet/Fold and Bet/Call Turn seem definitely wrong to me, and if floated then I don't think we are in good shape on the River.
On the River, Ch/F or Ch/C depending on how often villain will be bluffing.

I might even Ch/C the Flop (though I do have q a tight MP open %).

[Pugwashed]

Check/Call Turn.
Bet/Fold and Bet/Call Turn seem definitely wrong to me, and if floated then I don't think we are in good shape on the River.
On the River, Ch/F or Ch/C depending on how often villain will be bluffing.

I might even Ch/C the Flop (though I do have q a tight MP open %).

Seems like check/call turn sucks really bad. He's gonna have 66/88/98s/87s etc and all these pair + gutshot type hands that we should be betting vs for value and protection. He's gonna check all these back and the only hands he bets when we check are better than us or he would have to have floated the flop with complete nothing which probably isn't gonna happen too often, definitely nowhere near often enough for outweigh the other arguments for betting over checking...

...imo

[rfgqqabc]

Sucky spot. Every option sucks balls. Bet/call and play the streets. Maybe bet/fold is better, just depends if your being exploited

[rfgqqabc]

Sucky spot. Every option sucks balls. Bet/call and play the streets. Maybe bet/fold is better, just depends if your being exploited

Bet/fold needs to be default in fact. Your under the gun, is he ever getting frisky? Prob check call any river jack/queen/4325 and prob 7 too. Not sure if you should bet fold again on ace king queen depends on how often villain puts his cape on and howoften not unload the clip.

[Pugwashed]

Sucky spot. Every option sucks balls. Bet/call and play the streets. Maybe bet/fold is better, just depends if your being exploited

Bet/fold needs to be default in fact. Your under the gun, is he ever getting frisky? Prob check call any river jack/queen/4325 and prob 7 too. Not sure if you should bet fold again on ace king queen depends on how often villain puts his cape on and howoften not unload the clip.

I'm not sure this is right. I think the fact that we're UTG isn't very relevant by this point. For it to be relevant it would need to significantly change our turn value betting range which I don't think it does. Whether we open the CO or UTG I don't think our value range on the turn is gonna change a whole lot. If anything when we open the cutoff we might be able to have more nutted stuff if we're opening some combos of 86s and T8s so there is a case to be made that we should be less concerned about bet/folding TT when we're in the cutoff as its nearer the bottom of our range compared to the times we're in the cutoff. What's also worth mentioning is his value range for raising the turn doesn't change too much, he's more likely to flat JJ pre when we open utg but apart from that its not a big thing.

As for the rest of it, I still think he can be turning enough pair+gutshots into bluffs to the point where bet/call turn, call river becomes pretty reasonable. I mentioned in one of the other posts the variables that might sway me either way (3betting tendencies with small-mid suited connectors, flop/turn raising tendencies with sets). Just to be clear, I'm not saying bet/call turn is definitely better than bet/fold turn, it just seems like you were unfairly dismissing it for some incorrect reasons.

As for check/call the river after betting turn, I don't like it. For a lot of the same reasons that I said I didn't like checking the turn. After he calls flop and turn he always has some showdown value, I really doubt he turns worse into bluffs when we check it to him and he has the option to check it back and he's gonna value bet almost everything we lose to. I think the river would be either a bet/? or check/fold

[rfgqqabc]

Sucky spot. Every option sucks balls. Bet/call and play the streets. Maybe bet/fold is better, just depends if your being exploited

Bet/fold needs to be default in fact. Your under the gun, is he ever getting frisky? Prob check call any river jack/queen/4325 and prob 7 too. Not sure if you should bet fold again on ace king queen depends on how often villain puts his cape on and howoften not unload the clip.

I'm not sure this is right. I think the fact that we're UTG isn't very relevant by this point. For it to be relevant it would need to significantly change our turn value betting range which I don't think it does. Whether we open the CO or UTG I don't think our value range on the turn is gonna change a whole lot. If anything when we open the cutoff we might be able to have more nutted stuff if we're opening some combos of 86s and T8s so there is a case to be made that we should be less concerned about bet/folding TT when we're in the cutoff as its nearer the bottom of our range compared to the times we're in the cutoff. What's also worth mentioning is his value range for raising the turn doesn't change too much, he's more likely to flat JJ pre when we open utg but apart from that its not a big thing.

As for the rest of it, I still think he can be turning enough pair+gutshots into bluffs to the point where bet/call turn, call river becomes pretty reasonable. I mentioned in one of the other posts the variables that might sway me either way (3betting tendencies with small-mid suited connectors, flop/turn raising tendencies with sets). Just to be clear, I'm not saying bet/call turn is definitely better than bet/fold turn, it just seems like you were unfairly dismissing it for some incorrect reasons.

As for check/call the river after betting turn, I don't like it. For a lot of the same reasons that I said I didn't like checking the turn. After he calls flop and turn he always has some showdown value, I really doubt he turns worse into bluffs when we check it to him and he has the option to check it back and he's gonna value bet almost everything we lose to. I think the river would be either a bet/? or check/fold

Yeah, i typed up a edited response but it didn't post properly. Mobile browsing ftl.

C/C flop seems absolutely horrible. Kinda turns our hand faceup, and we are going to have to put our cape on oop with a capped range. Never fun.

I think your points about the turn are very valid. I don't play these stakes and was only having a punt. It feels like we can B/F happily, with one of the weaker hands in our range, and be quite happy about it. We need to be very comfortable, b/c, c/c river, as it will be a lot of big blinds. Unless i was very happy calling both, i think b/f is better until we find out more about our opp. We may have a similar spot in 5k hands time, with AA, where we see him raise the turn with 98, and bluff the river. But until then, i feel like he is going to raise us with nutted hands only. What are the default lines regs would use here if we were raised on the turn with TT/AA for example?

The river is potentially an easy street, or a complicated one depending on turn action and the card. Do you 2barrel as a bluff ott ever? If so, and we encounter a brick river, should we be betting again?  If we are a serial 3 barreler, then betting river should be standard. Sucks if we are and get raised on the river, this is what i meant by, c/c, because we can't really stand a raise on 50%+ turn cards. 6789 are all bad cards, and things like A/K esp in diamonds create an interesting spot. What do you we do if opp is good, thinking and creative when we bet the river and he shoves? Can't really call with TT even on a 5 river if we bet and get raised right? Or do we just shut our eyes and call?

Great response

[SuuPRlim]

betting has to be stnd surely?

Would be calling if he raises, with only 2 T8's and 2 J9's a raise from him is not all that credible - I would expect to be raised quite infrequently.

[pleno1]

We bet, he shoves

[rfgqqabc]

We bet, he shoves

Like 47$? Really not sure now, he shoves 268 ish, roughly 168 in the pot and 220 ish more? Doesn't really look like its for value, villain only started with 75 bigs, prob isn't great. Think i call but its not enjoyable. Can't get stove on here, but we have quite a lot of the combos blocked. Any timings? I think we see pair + gs + fd a good % of time, where he thinks, lots of outs and i have fe, arrrrrrrrr in!

Would expect him to raise with sets otf a good chunk of the time, we might see 97/J9/86 here a bit, but not so sure on 86. Only worry is I can't see anyone shot taking @ 400nl with 300 shoving particularly light, but if he is aggro, guess we flick it in.

[SuuPRlim]

give the dealer one of your tens, ask him for an 8 then call.

Easy

Genuinely might fold here, would rather call 9T