6Max SSNL Line with JJ

[Bully87]

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (IPoker)
$20.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, May 30, 07:39:14 ET 2012
Table Negril (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 ( $30.67 USD ) - VPIP: 28, PFR: 21, 3B: 7, AF: 1.5, Hands: 163
Seat 3: Player3 ( $9.80 USD ) - VPIP: 19, PFR: 8, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 26
Seat 5: Hero ( $47.12 USD ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 4, AF: 2.8, Hands: 3270
Seat 6: Player6 ( $18.57 USD ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 18, 3B: 11, AF: 1.7, Hands: 98
Seat 10: Player10 ( $20.00 USD ) - VPIP: 28, PFR: 21, 3B: 7, AF: 1.5, Hands: 163
Player3 posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$0.20 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [  ]
Player6 folds
Player10 folds
Player1 raises [$0.60 USD]
Player3 folds
Hero???

No real big sample on the opponent but from my HUD he looks fairly standard 28/21 with a low aggression factor over 150 odd hands, peels 3b 57% (probably not valid)
Just wanted to know what people do in this hand especially with the extra 50bbs he's got.

Stacking off pre with a flip seems bad.
3b folding seems daft
3b then calling OOP is going to be tough
Flat? Losing value?

Cheers in advance

[Honeybadger]

In normal BTN/BB dynamics this should be a very easy stack off, even with the extra 50bbs in the effective stacks. One problem is that you have a pretty low 3bet of only 4% (granted I have no idea what your 3bet from BB vs Steal stat is). It is getting towards the point where you are going to struggle to 3bet JJ for value in some spots. This is the age-old problem faced by players who play too tight with their 3bets. When they get all the money in against decent players they always seem to be on the wrong side of a 'cooler', and hence they start to think that they consistently run bad. In reality, of course, it is not a cooler... they are simply so tight that they only get action with 99-QQ when they are crushed.

Wow... just went rather off on a tangent there. But it is a reasonably important/interesting point if you haven't considered it before, so I am going to leave it in.

In fact, that's me done... I will let others give their thoughts, no more to say. Except for start 3betting a bit more.

[Bully87]

In normal BTN/BB dynamics this should be a very easy stack off, even with the extra 50bbs in the effective stacks. One problem is that you have a pretty low 3bet of only 4% (granted I have no idea what your 3bet from BB vs Steal stat is). It is getting towards the point where you are going to struggle to 3bet JJ for value in some spots. This is the age-old problem faced by players who play too tight with their 3bets. When they get all the money in against decent players they always seem to be on the wrong side of a 'cooler', and hence they start to think that they consistently run bad. In reality, of course, it is not a cooler... they are simply so tight that they only get action with 99-QQ when they are crushed.

Wow... just went rather off on a tangent there. But it is a reasonably important/interesting point if you haven't considered it before, so I am going to leave it in.

In fact, that's me done... I will let others give their thoughts, no more to say. Except for start 3betting a bit more.

Yes, this is a new account but I've been playing on, normally I'm a 7% 3bettor. Dont really understand why it's so low. Been flatting a lot more with AK/AQ/AJ/99 etc but I do understand what you are saying with regards to action when crushed.
Been playing small ball, trying not to stack off pre with flipping hands as said in another thread, most edge is found post flop at SSNL.

I used to just see AK/TT/99 and smash the 3b in and then boom aipf I'm either flipping/crushed and rarely crushing, so maybe cos I'm taking less high variance lines (especially vs regs) that I'm looking too tight.

[PaintingByNumbers]

I don't know what a standard 28/21 plays like but I imagine his (and this is the key stat, even if we have to make an estimate due to the small sample) Button Steal % is fairly wide, and therefore going to be difficult to defend (not that this is necessarily a problem at NL20).
A player on the Button should defend his Opening Range with more Calls than 4b's, and this is what we are hoping to happen when we 3b JJ, esp when you say that he 'peels 3b 57%'.
If we do face a 4b then it is fine to Fold if we think that we are up against a range that crushes us. Don't worry about it, we had a legitimate reason to expect that the most likely action of our opponent was one that we wanted, but we ran up against the wrong part of his range.
It is most likely, imo, that a 5b Jam is the correct response to a 4b from a 28/21 in this spot, tho I don't know his 4b stats (and am not likely to after 163 hands).

Stacking off pre with a flip seems bad.

Not if this is the worst outcome (obv this is a simplification), some of the time we win his open when he folds, some of the time he calls with a range that we dominate and some of the time we get it in with a flip.

3b then calling OOP is going to be tough

I agree with this assumption.

Flat? Losing value?

In this case I feel we are losing a huge amount of value. However, change the parameters (position, opening ranges etc) and we may not be able to 3b. Therefore, it is imperative to be able to extract value by Check/Raising and, more importantly to my mind, Donking effectively.

Oh, and I definitely agree with Honeybadger. If an opponent is opening too wide, attack him. I would fold a huge amount of my range to a player with your stats who 3b me in the BB.

[Honeybadger]

PaintingByNumbers, this is very good advice and well-written/explained. Please post more.

[SuuPRlim]

Honeybadger and PaintingByNumbers 2 of my faves on this board - Painting who are you btw, do we know each other??

[Bully87]

Good post PaintingByNumbers.

He should be defending his btn raise to a 3b some of the time in position pretty wide, so 3betting here is fine I think as he seemed very peely like I stated.
Anyway I decided to 3b and I got 4b abso huge, like 9bbs to 32bbs, it smelt like AK for a flip, we get it in and lose.

Still think 3b is right, despite my recent dedication to small ball.

Nice to get some decent responses too.