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Author Topic: Live £1/2- Taking off vs capped 3b range, flop decision?  (Read 3011 times)
skolsuper
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 01:50:04 PM »


Edited to say: It should also be noted that, despite looking like a 'sexy hand', 97s is not a very good hand at all. It is substantially worse than 98s or T9s in its ability to flop good equity.


Can you quantify this for me please? I would have imagined the three hands play very similar vs tight ranges...
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 01:58:01 PM »


Edited to say: It should also be noted that, despite looking like a 'sexy hand', 97s is not a very good hand at all. It is substantially worse than 98s or T9s in its ability to flop good equity.


Can you quantify this for me please? I would have imagined the three hands play very similar vs tight ranges...

Flopzilla pls? I imagine it flops 2-3% worse?
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 05:50:00 PM »


Edited to say: It should also be noted that, despite looking like a 'sexy hand', 97s is not a very good hand at all. It is substantially worse than 98s or T9s in its ability to flop good equity.


Can you quantify this for me please? I would have imagined the three hands play very similar vs tight ranges...

I'm away on holiday at the moment with no computer, and all posts have been from my iPhone for the last week (thinly veiled brag about my ninja typing skills on the iPhone despite being an old git). Someone could run a sim to quantify exactly what I say below. It's nice and easy but I can't do it with no computer. Unfortunately this means I am making a few guesses and talking in generalities in what I am about to say. But I don't think this changes its relevancy.

Hot and cold equity-wise there is of course not a huge difference between 98s and 97s vs a strong range. Maybe a couple of percent. But this equity difference should be judged as a fraction of your overall equity rather than as a fraction of 100%. In other words, increasing a hand's equity from 20% to 22% is a 10% increase in equity.

But hot and cold equity does not tell the whole story at all. More important is the realisable equity. There is a significant difference in the postflop playability of these hands. And specifically in the ability to realise their equity, and to prevent an opponent realising his.

You only have a slightly better chance of flopping a straight with 98s compared to 97s. But more importantly, you have a much better chance of flopping a straight draw - which you then have the option of playing aggressively and sometimes forcing opponent to fold his equity share. For example there are 50% more OESD flop combos with the suited connectors compared to the gappers. I can't put figures to this at the moment as I said above, but if I had to guess I'd say that you probably flop a good semi-bluffing hand (that you can also call with of course if you choose not to semi-bluff) 10-15% more often with the suited connector compared to the suited gapper. And it is this that makes 98s substantially better than 97s... because this additional flop equity gives us opportunities to play aggressively on more flops.

BTW, the reason why there is a big discrepancy here between equity and the ability to realise that equity is because a substantial portion of the times 97s and 98s win against a strong range is by making two pair on the turn or the river (or making one pair and having it win against AK/AQ). And this is the part of their equity that will be very difficult to realise. e.g. If you flop second pair with 98s you are often folding on the flop and so fail to realise your equity share. On the other hand, when these hands flop a straight or flush draw it is much more likely that this equity can be realised since you can get to the river more often. And sometimes you even gain additional equity through semi-bluffing and making your opponent fold. This can have the effect of turning a 2-3% hot and cold equity difference into a 10-15% realisable equity difference.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:33:02 AM by Honeybadger » Logged
Oxford_HRV
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2012, 10:12:16 PM »

I think id fold the flop muttering about AK, squeeze pre looks perfect really.
I think I could smell QQ KK AA
Needed to really have a better flop to go gamble on, nice play tho Smiley
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The Squid
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 12:19:33 AM »

Call. Bluff all in on any turn if he checks. Don't post results in the initial question if you want good answers.
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action man
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2012, 09:25:35 AM »

i dont understand the 4bet pre at all. Inflating the pot vs a tight range to give us less post flop manoeuvrability. I also think that your sizing is way off here, i mean he's never folding pre, so why not click it to £60ish, accomplishes exactly the same in narrowing the field and gives you more room post. As played i mean just fold. His range with this donk bet is JJ,QQ a large % so 2 outs are dead a large amount of the time, and 'recreational  players' with overpairs aren't folding anytime soon after donking a hundred pound chip.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 10:32:46 AM by action man » Logged
rfgqqabc
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2012, 04:11:23 PM »

i dont understand the 4bet pre at all. Inflating the pot vs a tight range to give us less post flop manoeuvrability. I also think that your sizing is way off here, i mean he's never folding pre, so why not click it to £60ish, accomplishes exactly the same in narrowing the field and gives you more room post. As played i mean just fold. His range with this donk bet is JJ,QQ a large % so 2 outs are dead a large amount of the time, and 'experienced players' with overpairs aren't folding anytime soon after donking a hundred pound chip.

Hes rec player not experienced, like the thoughts on size but still prefer folding Sad

Ty for thoughts guys, pretty much same consensus as what i discussed after with mates.
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stato_1
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »

dont 4bet. id peel if you dont peel live poker is boring no point playing lol
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Mitch
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2012, 02:14:37 AM »

As usual, Peel.

Also, agree 4bet size is pointeless when you know he is never folding.
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action man
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2012, 10:31:58 AM »

i dont understand the 4bet pre at all. Inflating the pot vs a tight range to give us less post flop manoeuvrability. I also think that your sizing is way off here, i mean he's never folding pre, so why not click it to £60ish, accomplishes exactly the same in narrowing the field and gives you more room post. As played i mean just fold. His range with this donk bet is JJ,QQ a large % so 2 outs are dead a large amount of the time, and 'experienced players' with overpairs aren't folding anytime soon after donking a hundred pound chip.

Hes rec player not experienced, like the thoughts on size but still prefer folding Sad

Ty for thoughts guys, pretty much same consensus as what i discussed after with mates.


sorry, meant recreational
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2012, 12:07:06 PM »

id peel if you dont peel live poker is boring no point playing lol

my thoughts exactly Tongue
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