Live vs Langley

[Pugwashed]

Maybe kind of an interesting spot vs Tom Langley / TL900. Thoughts on flop check? Thoughts on turn decision?

Blinds 150/300/25, 6 handed

CO (complete unkown) has ~9k, Tom is on the button with ~15.5k, we are in the BB and cover.

CO open to 600, Tom calls button, SB folds, we make it 1925 with KK from the BB, CO call, Tom calls. Flop JT8r. We check, CO checks, Tom bets 1700, we call, CO calls. Turn (brings a backdoor flush draw), we check, CO checks, Tom bets 2700 with ~9k behind, we

[youthnkzR]

as played call turn

[Mehtab]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

[George2Loose]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

Nice level

[aaron1867]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

You can't fold the turn, when it is a complete brick, considering you have already called flop.

PS - Flatting the bet does not help to find out where you are.

[Mehtab]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

Nice level

Obv. this is in theory. IRL I read it right but I'm just jammin like Bob Marley and hope for best! What do you do here?

[hatthehole]

jam turn. id bet the flop too.

[Mehtab]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

You can't fold the turn, when it is a complete brick, considering you have already called flop.

PS - Flatting the bet does not help to find out where you are.

I disagree. Called the flop, had a caller behind. 3 way to a turn in a 3 bet pot pre on a board like that, I'm not so confident with KK. It seems that this is online and obv. I don't play online (or at least not even semi competently) so maybe dynamics are a little different but I'm most likely folding.

What do you find out if you raise the flop and get re-raised btw Aaron?

[youthnkzR]

didnt see the overcaller*

jam turn

[muckthenuts]

Reasons for not betting flop? Seems very bad to me. Turn close but probably calling.

[aaron1867]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

You can't fold the turn, when it is a complete brick, considering you have already called flop.

PS - Flatting the bet does not help to find out where you are.

I disagree. Called the flop, had a caller behind. 3 way to a turn in a 3 bet pot pre on a board like that, I'm not so confident with KK. It seems that this is online and obv. I don't play online (or at least not even semi competently) so maybe dynamics are a little different but I'm most likely folding.

What do you find out if you raise the flop and get re-raised btw Aaron?

There are too many hands that can be beating him & lots of outs if someone is already not there.

But if you are calling a flop bet here and the turn is a brick, then perfect opportunity to get money in here. But for me, I am re-raising here to get some information, if he re-raises us, then imo, we are behind.

Nut worst thing is to call the flop & call the turn.

[Mehtab]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

You can't fold the turn, when it is a complete brick, considering you have already called flop.

PS - Flatting the bet does not help to find out where you are.

I disagree. Called the flop, had a caller behind. 3 way to a turn in a 3 bet pot pre on a board like that, I'm not so confident with KK. It seems that this is online and obv. I don't play online (or at least not even semi competently) so maybe dynamics are a little different but I'm most likely folding.

What do you find out if you raise the flop and get re-raised btw Aaron?

There are too many hands that can be beating him & lots of outs if someone is already not there.

But if you are calling a flop bet here and the turn is a brick, then perfect opportunity to get money in here. But for me, I am re-raising here to get some information, if he re-raises us, then imo, we are behind.

Nut worst thing is to call the flop & call the turn.

Don't like the "well I called the flop and the turn didn't change anything" approach. If we think we are ahead on the flop with TL9oo having an AJ/99 type holding then agree get it in. But there is another player to take into account.

Also one thing I did ignore was the c/c on the flop. Personally I'm leading this flop for around 4.7k (which leaves 7k behind to sigh call a jam). But as played I fold the turn.

[david3103]

Our hand is under repped when we check the flop surely? So what's in villain's call raise, call 3 bet that beats us?
88 and 10 10 ? Anything else? Does he flat the semi-connectors like 8 10 or frightening thought 7 9? I'd assume not.

It's far from the worst flop ever for KK and aside from any value considerations I think leading the flop allows us to 'find out where we are' cheaper than a check raise can, but as it stands now isn't there some AJ, A10 in there now given that we've made our hand look more like AK than KK...

I call the river, although I might be inclined to raise if I cover by lots.

[rfgqqabc]

as played call turn

Reasons for calling Tom?

I'm folding this spot. The flop and turn bets look extremely value ridden from TL900 and with CO calling behind I wouldn't know what card I'd want to see on the turn even if I believed I was winning right nwo (which I don't - seems very 88/1010 to me).

Don't mind the flop call fwiw.

You can't fold the turn, when it is a complete brick, considering you have already called flop.

PS - Flatting the bet does not help to find out where you are.

I disagree. Called the flop, had a caller behind. 3 way to a turn in a 3 bet pot pre on a board like that, I'm not so confident with KK. It seems that this is online and obv. I don't play online (or at least not even semi competently) so maybe dynamics are a little different but I'm most likely folding.

What do you find out if you raise the flop and get re-raised btw Aaron?

There are too many hands that can be beating him & lots of outs if someone is already not there.

But if you are calling a flop bet here and the turn is a brick, then perfect opportunity to get money in here. But for me, I am re-raising here to get some information, if he re-raises us, then imo, we are behind.

Nut worst thing is to call the flop & call the turn.

Don't like the "well I called the flop and the turn didn't change anything" approach. If we think we are ahead on the flop with TL9oo having an AJ/99 type holding then agree get it in. But there is another player to take into account.

Also one thing I did ignore was the c/c on the flop. Personally I'm leading this flop for around 4.7k (which leaves 7k behind to sigh call a jam). But as played I fold the turn.

I think i read Keith Johnson mentioned it here, I'll either be giving him credit/discredit depending on how well it comes out. It went something like "I hate it when players say, "well i had to call, the river changed nothing. If he has bet again, something has changed, we went from one bet to two, or two bets to three."

It doesn't sound very good, and not word for word, hopefully basic point comes through. I'm not sure how we are beat, but i can't imagine Tom betting worse.

[Pugwashed]

The flop as I see it in game. I'm 3betting a pretty polarised range in this spot (something AQ+ 99+ for value and then some bluffs which have next to no equity to barrel with). I'm not 3betting a lot of more medium strength hands when I'm getting such a good price to just peel in the big blind. The flop is also really good for both CO and Tom's ranges. Because of this I'd be check/folding so much of my complete air 3way. Because of this I think my flop cbetting range is gonna be pretty strong and Tom can play pretty well vs it (I don't think I ever get 2 streets of value from Jx by cbetting) and I wanna balance for the times I'm check/folding I decided to check/call. I also know how Tom likes to bet really small as a standard in these spots so I can get away with check/calling some draws and I can also have some Tx that I'm kinda protecting a little bit by having some stronger stuff in my check/calling range.

Maybe the best argument for just betting the flop is CO is probably not very good and turning my hand face up vs Tom is more than compensated for by the fact that checking possibly loses value vs CO although he is short enough that even if flop checks through I can still get it in vs him in 2 bets. I could also just bet the flop and have AK/AQ as semibluffs to balance some of my stronger stuff but I still feel like it have to have some kind of checking range on this flop and that in trying to balance that flop cbetting range it's gonna be really difficult to balance a checking range while having that cbetting range (unless I'm happy just capping myself and trying to just guess how often I should be calling down).

As far as Tom's range goes. I never expect him to have sets here as all flopped sets. Expect him to either 3bet the first time or to just back raise vs my squeeze. I also think he bets flop pretty wide with made hands / semibluffs (one of the advantages of his really small flop sizings in these spots) but not really sure about his turn betting range and turn bet/calling range (what's the strongest hand he checks back?)