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Author Topic: Check back too nitty / Jam too thin?  (Read 3688 times)
Pinchop73
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2013, 11:51:43 AM »

I think flatting flop is fine with two people still left to act. We can get it in if someone behind takes off with 2pr/flush draws/set.

Just a sick runout that's all. River is really meh, I think jamming will a certain % of the time to get small flushes to fold, which is the only hand I can see that checks the river that we're behind of.

In game I def jam, but checking behind def has merits in that a 40bb stack is still a nice stack. How far away from the FT are we?
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First they came for the nits, and I did not speak out because I was not a nit
pleno1
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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2013, 11:53:34 AM »

They aren't folding FDs/sets and maybe even not 2pair
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2013, 11:54:58 AM »

I think flatting flop is fine with two people still left to act. We can get it in if someone behind takes off with 2pr/flush draws/set.

Just a sick runout that's all. River is really meh, I think jamming will a certain % of the time to get small flushes to fold, which is the only hand I can see that checks the river that we're behind of.

In game I def jam, but checking behind def has merits in that a 40bb stack is still a nice stack. How far away from the FT are we?

What small flushes do you think he c/calls turn with? Can't think he has any of these combos.
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Pinchop73
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2013, 12:10:01 PM »

Not a great deal admittedly. But if he's dece he's deep enough to open utg 5handed with JsXs, 9sXs etc.

The more I think about it the more I think a check behind isn't really that nitty at all. I can't think of much a dece player calls with that we beat. I really don't like bet folding with this spr, we're not getting full value when were ahead, and we're not getting folds from anything that beats us. But that wouldn't be the first time I go against the grain. :p

I think the turn is the most interesting street. In that, what does villain think we bet on the turn? Check calling that particular card, I think he's pretty polarised, either totally nutted (he feels we're very strong thus allows us to valuecut ourselves), or he's pretty thin and hero'ing vs nut flush draw etc. Neither of these calls 5k into 13k with 12k behind on that particular river card.

Super interesting hand though, cheers for posting it, hope I've not derailed too much. Cheers
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:39:15 PM by Pinchop73 » Logged

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pleno1
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2013, 01:19:20 PM »

yeh but just because he can open 9xss doesnt mean he would ever c/call the turn with no sdv and reverse implied odds it would be prety horrific.

If we expect him to never have spades and usually barreling full houses ott, then it makes checking otr v bad imo
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youthnkzR
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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 02:20:23 PM »

Losing tons of value by checking river.
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cambridgealex
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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2013, 02:50:26 PM »

I wasn't really worried by the river so much. There's perhaps 4 combos of flushes in villians range given all the blockers that are out there, , , and (maybe).

In my experience, randoms (and he was random to me at the time) might take this line with these hands up to the river, but then they just donk jam. So when he checks it's a sort of green light that he doesn't have a flush. Of course it's possible he'll play these hands that way, but given that there's only 3 or 4 combos of them anyway, I decided it wasn't worth worrying too much about the flush.

That isn't to say the river is a brick - it massively reduces my perceived bluff combos, thus making it less likely for villain to hero call with the hands we are trying to get heroed from which are: AA, AK, KQ, AT, JT, J9. There's still a lot of combos of these hands (massively outweighing the combos of flushes, so even if he folds these hands 80% of the time and calls with a flush 100% of the time it'll be a fistpump jam combinatorially (forgetting the full house combos for the time being)).

The turn is the most worrying card. When he checks it, it's another "green light" that we are winning. Probably. It is an unusual line to check a fullhouse on the turn in a 4way pot with all the draws / hands that can call but will check back / scare cards on the river. It's still a worry though, more of a worry than the flush imo. And there's way more combos of houses/quads than flushes (13 combos)

Will he call with worse? Random frenchy - yes, quite a lot of the time. I've seen them call with KJ here, snap AA, KQ and I think most would struggle to fold Tx or J9.

That's why I jammed.

He had QQ. I've since learnt that he's a good but slightly nitty reg. Do we like his check on the turn? Now we know he's a good but slightly nitty reg, do we prefer check back, 5k/fold, or jam?

« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 02:54:19 PM by cambridgealex » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 06:00:45 PM »

I raise flop most of the time here, for reasons already stated.
Now it's kinda tough. I know the guy is a fairly nitty reg... not sure on what end of good he is... not a sicko from what i've seen, but certainly not bad. Feels like we're ahead on the river most of the time, but seems like villain barely has a range to call with his hands that are worse than ours. Seemed like he might have AJ a bunch too. KQ sometimes (clear river fold for him). Its just hard for us ever to be bluffiing in his eyes... so what hands worse than AJ are we jamming for value... none, so he should be able to fold pretty perfectly. Only because its 4-way to the flop and the way the action has gone, our hand just has to be really strong. In game I probably just jam, but realistically its very thin.
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Mondeoman
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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 10:46:16 PM »

Don't mind the flat on the flop to try and keep other players in and under rep your hand.
Versus a good or even semi competent player prob not worth value betting the river - cant think of many hands that someone who can hand read would call with.  Versus a fish obv have to bet.
Agree if you do value bet you should bet fold 5-6k.  You don't really have to worry about being bluffed raised off your hand cos villain never gets to the river with a hand they will feel the need to bluff with (plus about 99% of players don't have a river check raise bluff in their locker in any spot).
Its not really relevant that you usually have the best hand by the river what is relevant is are you ahead of villains calling range.  Id say answer here is no.
You are never bluffing in this spot so you don't need to balance with thin value bets. 
I like his check on the turn as if he bets again its obvious he has an absolute monster and he's also happy to give a free card to a flush draw.

Were you using a hud?  Can be useful in assessing how fishy oppo might be.
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Mondeoman
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2013, 10:49:13 PM »

Also 3 bet pre
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