The state of the bookmaking industry..

[tikay]

But when you look closer the profit margins are very different between offshore and UK based businesses for 2012.

Hills 1.276 bn turnover generates 277m profit.

Bet 365 1.24 bn t/o generates 111m profit.

Good job Bet 365 does not have shareholders or they would be offshore pretty quick?

There simply has to be something wrong with those Hills figures.  That is a margin of 20%+.  In all my years in the betting business I have only ever seen one business with those kind of margins and they got most of their business from shops in Italy where the average bet was an 8 team accumulator.  I find it pretty hard to believe Hills make those kind of margins based on normal margin calculations.  Maybe some one off profits or something?

Hills do NOT make 20% net after overheads etc. They might well make 15% to 17.5% gross margin, but that is not the same thing at all. If the Accounts suggest 20% net, then there will be exceptional gains included.

[The Camel]

I guess it purely depends who happens to be working in the trading room at the time the bet comes through.

I think this is a very important point actually.  A lot of this is about the lowest common denominator so your experience of a firm is equivalent to their worst trader.  a lot of traders are decent enough fellas and want to be fair but there is a lot of pressure and sometimes they just can't afford to lay bets if they want to keep on the right side of the accountants that run the places these days.

A junior who is worried about getting a bollocking if he lays a bet at 11/1 about a4/1 shot is very unlikely to nod through my bet.

Head of trading probably doesn't care quite so much.

[AndrewT]

But when you look closer the profit margins are very different between offshore and UK based businesses for 2012.

Hills 1.276 bn turnover generates 277m profit.

Bet 365 1.24 bn t/o generates 111m profit.

Good job Bet 365 does not have shareholders or they would be offshore pretty quick?

Those figures are for all WH's business (shops and online). The online stuff will be taxed out of somewhere like Gibraltar, whereas the shops will be here.

The split is:

Shops: 838m rev, 211m profit (25% of rev) - taxes/levies of 137m (16% of rev)
Online: 407m rev, 145m profit (37% of rev) - taxes/levies of 36m (8.8% of rev)

Also, this will be for all revenue streams (including the machines in the shops and poker/casino/slots/bingo online) so can't really be used to reverse-engineer bookmaking margins.

[tikay]

But when you look closer the profit margins are very different between offshore and UK based businesses for 2012.

Hills 1.276 bn turnover generates 277m profit.

Bet 365 1.24 bn t/o generates 111m profit.

Good job Bet 365 does not have shareholders or they would be offshore pretty quick?

Those figures are for all WH's business (shops and online). The online stuff will be taxed out of somewhere like Gibraltar, whereas the shops will be here.

The split is:

Shops: 838m rev, 211m profit (25% of rev) - taxes/levies of 137m (16% of rev)
Online: 407m rev, 145m profit (37% of rev) - taxes/levies of 36m (8.8% of rev)

Also, this will be for all revenue streams (including the machines in the shops and poker/casino/slots/bingo online) so can't really be used to reverse-engineer bookmaking margins.

Wherever possible, the majors do not split out the Bookmaking numbers, as it rather gives the game away. Ladbrokes still do, maybe one or two others, but most don't. All the bookmaking organisations take a keen interest in each others margins......

[aaron1867]

Just been having a few bets in Coral, guy has £500 bet on horse for tonight at 11/10. Assistant takes bet phones traders and ACCEPTS at price.

I thought he was going to get the knock back straight off.

It's in the 5.10. Although it has just moved the Coral market and is now 10/11.