Iron chops it at Walsall

[jammer]

Jammer's deal-destroying structure:

Code:

-------------------------------------------------
 Position  Percentage   Prize   Average if Split
-------------------------------------------------
    1st        25       £1000        £1000
    2nd        20       £800         £900
    3rd        16       £640         £813
    4th        12       £480         £730
    5th        9        £360         £656
    6th        7        £280         £593
    7th        5        £200         £537
    8th        3        £120         £485
    9th        2        £80          £440
    10th       1        £40          £400
-------------------------------------------------

The structure is aimed at giving no incentive for a deal to be done (Above figures for a £4k pot). We all know that most televised big tournament finals are a sham as deals are done and little is being played for but pride and your name being on the cup.

Now I don't know if you want to put off deals, but if you did... well this is the structure for it imo.

[I KNOW IT]

I find the larger field pay out structure bad, i.e  160 runners in 1k event. 18 get paid
11th  to 18th get £1,000 for eg.

Now all the low stacks who are now in the money see their rag cards a lot more playable, because now they are free rolling in a sense, and the prize money is exactly the same from 18th till 11th.

I think this is also an important aspect of the payout structure which needs to be looked at 

[Foxy]

Nice thread well done to Ironside and snoppy at walsall, cant agree with these pay outs 25% for first ?
Walsall have got the prize stucture pretty good as it is. In fact I think only the final table of any comp should get paid, also I would like to see touneys when only the winner gets paid, the winner ends up with all the chips so that means he deserves all the money. Yes sure doing deals is fine and this is part of the game, when offered a deal you can take a risk and play on if you think you can outplay the rest or you can take a cut of the money and run.

[TheJagster]

Very interesting thread....been out caving today so only just seen it......

Firstly   vwd Ironside....nicely done

Ive played a couple of times at Walsall, where the payout has been adjusted, with players agreement, so that in two day events, everyone who has to come back gets something.

Even if it only covers the hotel bill, I have to say I like this idea.

[Karabiner]

Glad you got another draw there Ironside.

Hope you spent the mandatory 50% of winnings on lapdancers !

 

[luckyblind]

The first couple of tournaments I played and made the last few I did deals 2 & 3 way because I didn't know any better and also had not been playing long so was not that confident, especially when Ms Rokach was one of the players I was dealing with in my first final table 

Now I am more confident with my game I don't do deals at Final tables as I feel that I can go on and win and have done every time time I have refused a deal. This has only applied to small tournaments so far and to be honest a lot of the players have had no experience of heads up play so it is not that difficult. If it came to the crunch in a bigger tournament where the difference in money may make an impact on my life then I may reconsider.

As far as payouts go I am all for bigger first prizes as the better players have more of an advantage and playing to win is rewarded better than sneaking to the final table and hoping a deal is struck.

[RED-DOG]

Thats a contradiction though, the bigger the first prize, the more chance of a deal

[I KNOW IT]

I can agree with only the final table being paid, but if you had winner take all, I doubt you would get many entries.

[luckyblind]

Thats a contradiction though, the bigger the first prize, the more chance of a deal

It should be the opposite. It makes a good players edge worth more. Yes you might get unlucky the odd time, but if you are a good enough player then if you do not deal you will win more in the long run. Here is a scenario based on tournaments in Dublin, ?20 Re-buys.

1st ?1750
2nd ?870
3rd ?540

Even chop = ?1050 each - more than 2nd. You are giving up nearly half of your potential profit though. We are talking small tournies here and a lot of the time you will be up against inexperienced players and you have good edge in the long run. 2 1sts and a 3rd add up to over ?4000 - 33% more than 3 chops.

However and 3 zero's to the prizes and I am doing a deal unless a massive chipleader 

[jammer]

Thats a contradiction though, the bigger the first prize, the more chance of a deal

It should be the opposite. It makes a good players edge worth more. Yes you might get unlucky the odd time, but if you are a good enough player then if you do not deal you will win more in the long run. Here is a scenario based on tournaments in Dublin, ?20 Re-buys.

1st ?1750
2nd ?870
3rd ?540

Even chop = ?1050 each - more than 2nd. You are giving up nearly half of your potential profit though. We are talking small tournies here and a lot of the time you will be up against inexperienced players and you have good edge in the long run. 2 1sts and a 3rd add up to over ?4000 - 33% more than 3 chops.

However and 3 zero's to the prizes and I am doing a deal unless a massive chipleader 

This depends on the tournament structure (unfortunately many of which are poor). It may be true of festival main events and the like, but the end of many tournaments (particular smaller events), boils down to little more than an all in crap shoot, at which point it makes no sense whatsoever to do anything but a deal. In situations like that it matters not a jot the percentage edge you have, its just too easy for someone to get lucky to ignore a deal with better expected profit.

[luckyblind]

Thats a contradiction though, the bigger the first prize, the more chance of a deal

It should be the opposite. It makes a good players edge worth more. Yes you might get unlucky the odd time, but if you are a good enough player then if you do not deal you will win more in the long run. Here is a scenario based on tournaments in Dublin, ?20 Re-buys.

1st ?1750
2nd ?870
3rd ?540

Even chop = ?1050 each - more than 2nd. You are giving up nearly half of your potential profit though. We are talking small tournies here and a lot of the time you will be up against inexperienced players and you have good edge in the long run. 2 1sts and a 3rd add up to over ?4000 - 33% more than 3 chops.

However and 3 zero's to the prizes and I am doing a deal unless a massive chipleader 

This depends on the tournament structure (unfortunately many of which are poor). It may be true of festival main events and the like, but the end of many tournaments (particular smaller events), boils down to little more than an all in crap shoot, at which point it makes no sense whatsoever to do anything but a deal. In situations like that it matters not a jot the percentage edge you have, its just too easy for someone to get lucky to ignore a deal with better expected profit.

I forgot to add Luke in the Fitzwilliam encourages good poker by freezing the blinds at the final table of most of these types of tournaments. Usually about 350k in play and blinds will be stopped at 2000/4000 or 3000/6000 which allows for a bit more play. I keep forgetting that you lot in the UK have to finish early.

[ifm]

Walsall do something similar.
the play a full round at the existing blind level then restart the clock, the blinds are then capped at a predetermined level, usually 4000/8000 but it depends on chips in play.
it's ok but depending on entrants it is a total crapshoot from about 25 people left.