How do you play two-pair out of position?

[Pyso]

Hi Guys, your thoughts please -

Cash Game at DTD,  £0.50/£1 NLHE  27th January 2008

9 players

I am in the BB.

Some background - on the hand before I have just re-raised the player two seats to my right and got him to fold what he thought were pocket nines (it was actually 9,6)

I am dealt 10,8.

5 players limp in, including the button player (the one who who needs an eye test!) and I check my option.

The flop is 10,8, x   giving me two pair (just checking you were awake)

I bet out about half the pot, the only caller is the button

The turn is another rag.

I bet about half to two thirds the pot again. He calls. The river completes the flush I fear he has been chasing. I can't remember the exact total of my bet here so I can't say if I did give him 4-1 to call, but I'm 90% sure I didn't.

I consider a value bet but check instead, waiting to see what he does and what vibes I get. He dwells up and pushes in £35 which is around pot size.

My read is that he is on a flush draw - everything seems consistent with this play, particularly his limp pre-flop.

I figure that if I call (for most of my chips) that I will probably be throwing money away. I fold (after a suitable ponder).

He shows pocket nines, saying that he really did have them this time.

Aside from being wise after the event and being a bit frustrated at throwing away the best hand, my two questions are -

a) I recognise a value bet on the river was in order, but for how much, given that I was up against a very likely (given the way the hand was played) flush?

b) What do you do when you make it a poor call in terms of pot odds for someone to chase, yet they call anyway and you fear they have hit? Just suck it up and call, or just suck it up and fold?!!! My read on him was that he had made a flush, but I was wrong. Should I have called anyway given the other possibilities? This was a difficult player to read - he always looks shifty and on the make!! I went on the betting patterns alone and was wrong.

[AlexMartin]

Hi Pyso, my thoughts. Live cash is a very fishy game and 1/2 pot bets are pretty worthless if you are betting for value. Crank it up please, there is always some numpty who calls.

Ok, the X on the board is very important. Bottom 2 pair loses more money in holdem than anything else because of its vulnerabilty. Regardless, bet 2/3-3/4 of the pot in future on both flop and turn. River is read dependant but you should be able to get most of ur stack in by the turn which makes river easier. Need to know stack sizes and exact bets to give accurate advice but you want to get 3 streets of value ideally culminating in a river push that isnt an overbet.
Use ur judgement here, if you thought he was chasing a flush and it got there, fold, instincts only get better over time. Looks to me like he knows what he's doing with that river bet, so next time just induce the bluff and snap call.

[LuckyLloyd]

Be betting over 3 / of the pot for value on flop and turn.

Given stacksizes on the river check / calling is better than bet / folding or bet / calling. It's a tough spot and I certaintly wouldn't be putting him on 99. The other fringe benefit of making bigger flop and turn bets is that your decision on the river becomes much, much simpler.

[Pyso]

Thanks guys. 

I didn't make any notes at the time and it happened quite early in the session but I'm pretty sure the third card on the flop was less than the 10 and the 8.

I did think the problem here was not betting out enough on the flop and the turn, making my river decision just a bit too tricky.

I couldn't put him on 9,9 either!

[LuckyLloyd]

Actually, the fact that he does show 99 here is just another example of why live cash is lol.

[Benny Brox]

Although you believe the turn to be a rag I'd still pot it or even push if the plays are this fishy, make them pay.

[Longy]

Stack size are very important in this hand.

As others have said I generally just pot,pot then shove this by the sounds of the stack size and opponent.

As played I only really check the river with intention of inducing bluffs and opening up his range.